100%K knocking out background colour.

[jon_gallet@adobeforums.com]

I have exhausted all avenues and I prostrate myself at the feet of this forum and meekly ask for help.

Indesign 3.0.1 OSX 10.4.8

I thought the problem was due to my use of TT fonts but I'm also having the same issues with OpenType as well. I have black set at 100% and the cmy plates as viewed in Indesign are blank. However when I view the resulting pdf in Acrobat using the sep viewer I find that the cmy plates have the background knocked out where the black is.

This does not occur if the black type is overlaying a photograph, only if it is overlaying a box with a pale colour!

My general preferences is set to "overprint black swatch at 100%". I'm using basically the press pdf exports. I've gone through them all and tried every permutation that may make a difference.

For destination profile I have tried both document and working, although they are both the same anyway. (us swop coated v2) I include this info as I read in another thread that a difference here can affect the black printing on four plates. Which isn't really my problem, it's that black is printing fine but knocking out the background.

The only pdf export preset that I have found that makes a difference is the advanced option to check "overprint black". With a photograph this option will show the photo with no knockout in Acrobat but with this unchecked the photo will be knocked out where the black goes.

However this made no difference at all to the black knocking out a pale colour I have put in a box. I tried using a plain box and a photo box, it makes no difference. So somehow Indesign knows there is a photo in the box and overprints correctly but as the type goes over a photo box that has a swatch colour, the colour is knocked out.

I then went to try the different pdf compatibilities. I then noticed that if I selected compatibility with pdf 5 or 6, that the "overprint black" option was greyed out!

That's about the most information I can give.

Any more ideas?

[Gerald_Singelmann@adobeforums.com]

that the "overprint black" option was greyed out!




There is no "overprint black" option in the advanced section.
There is a "simulate overprint" option which roughly translated means: do not use overprint at all but use transparency to mix the colours in a way they would be mixed if the overprint was working on a printer that cannot overprint.
In short: "simulate overprint" is ONLY for colour printers or those PDFs that will be viewed in a AC Reader before version 7. Those devices and softwares that cannot handle overprint. You do not want to use it for production purposes.

Which version of Acrobat have you got?
If AC7: when you use the separation preview, which target colour space have you selected?
What is the mixture of that "pale colour"?

Gerald

[jon_gallet@adobeforums.com]

Sorry, yes I meant to refer to "simulate overprint". However the problem is still the same.

I'm using Acrobat 6.0.2

The pale colour I was using was 20Y 10M, although it makes no difference what colour I use.

Here are some shots. The top is how it appears in Indesign the middle is how the magenta plate looks in indesign and the bottom is the magenta plate viewed in acrobat 6.0.2 after being exported to pdf using press defaults and every other combination I could try that may have been relevent.

I was originally using TT fonts which I'm told can cause a problem but the test sample is an opentype font supplied by adobe.

I have tried converting to outlines and that fixes the problem but the text is ruined.

[Gerald_Singelmann@adobeforums.com]

Jon, can you send me the test PDF?
I do not have AC6 on my machine any more and I have no idea yet as to what can cause this weird behaviour.
Perhaps a look at it could give me a clue.
gsingelmann [at] impressed.de

Gerald

[jon_gallet@adobeforums.com]

OK thanks, will do.

[tman@adobeforums.com]

if you want to hammer in a nail...just hit it with a hammer (no need to get fancy).....that said...
select text with text tool--then Window>Attributes>check 'Overprint Fill'.
then export your PDF at the default 'High Quality Print' setting.

and there you have it.....

[John_Slate@adobeforums.com]

The black swatch overprints by default (a preference). No need to set the overprint attribute.

tman: Can you think of any setting that would make type only overprint a photo, but not a flat color?

Me either.

I suspect some type of display anomaly in Acrobat.

jon: what happens if you place your exported PDF back in InDesign and view the separations there?

What happens if you print the magenta plate from the PDF?

[Bob Levine]

Let's eliminate a few things here:

Are you fully patched to 3.0.1 (838)?
Are you on a Intel Mac?
Are you using the default black swatch?
Have you inadvertantly set a transparency to any of the objects? This
could be a blend mode or opacity setting.

Bob

[jon_gallet@adobeforums.com]

I tried that but it didn't work.

I am uploading a dmg of the the complete exported package test file I'm using plus a press ready pdf at default settings. Seps look fine in indesign but knocked out in Acrobat.

I have left "simulate overprint" unchecked which means that the photograph is also knocked out when viewed in Acrobat.

<http://www.functuck.com/test/>

[John_Slate@adobeforums.com]

I tried that but it didn't work.




Tried what?

Like I said, it looks like a display problem to me.

Opening the PDF in Illustrator shows an overprint attribute on all the type.

[jon_gallet@adobeforums.com]

Tried what?




Sorry two posts while I typed. I meant tried the attribute thing.

John Slate
In the sample file I posted the photo is also knocked out but if I set simulate overprint then the photo is not knocked out although the colour backgrounds are. I have placed the exported file back into Indesign and it displays with nothing knocking out. I'm just printing out the magenta sep from Acrobat...

Whoa good catch, although it displays as 'knocked out' in the print dialog box it prints with no knockout!

So I guess that means that it is a display problem. Which seems to be a bit strange as the whole point of the sep preview is to preview the actual sep, isn't it?

Robert Levine,
Yep patched to 3.0.1 but I'm not sure is that is also (838) it doesn't say in the 'about' box. No no objects have transparency.

[jon_gallet@adobeforums.com]

So, I suppose that I can trust the b/w printout from a non postscript brother printer? Does this mean that I am now looking for an option somewhere in acrobat that allows me to display incorrect seps? Or do I just ignore sep previews in Acrobat and trust Indesign instead?

[John_Slate@adobeforums.com]

I'm unfamiliar with Acrobat 6, but is there an overprint preview as opposed to a separation preview? or are they the same thing?

[Gerald_Singelmann@adobeforums.com]

Just another 2 cents:
the PDF is perfectly alright. The text is set to overprint. The separation preview of AC7 as well as PitStop give nothing to grumble about.

So it must be something wrong with your AC6 configuration. I cannot remember if there were any known issues.
Perhaps you can check on the AC forum?

gerald

[jon_gallet@adobeforums.com]

OK, I'll follow this up in the AC forum.

Thanks for everyone's help on this.

John, sep and overprint previews are different.

[Buko@adobeforums.com]

Quick question is this the default black or a black swatch you made?

If I recall correctly if you make a 100% black it will knock out where as default black won't.

[Bob Levine]

Nobody reads post seven.

Bob

[John_Slate@adobeforums.com]

Face it Bob, there's just something about your posts that make them invisible :)

If I recall correctly if you make a 100% black it will knock out where
as default black won't.




Yes but there is nothing that you can do to make a single object overprint a picture but not a tint.

[Buko@adobeforums.com]

I did read it but it may have been a cryptic question with no meaning to the OP.

By adding the did you make a swatch I was trying to get an answer that I had not noticed an answer for. Granted I was skimming over the thread.

[jon_gallet@adobeforums.com]

Sorry about missing the default black question, I did see the post and I answered the other questions (apart from the intel mac ;¬))

Yes it was a bit cryptic I didn't know there was a differnce between 100%K and the default black. I though by 'default' black you meant 100K rather than 4 colour black.

But anyway the problem is solved in that there in fact isn't a problem. It's just that acrobat is telling me there is a problem. But the seps will run out from Acrobat and look as they should.

By an incredible coincidence all this came about because my printer's imagesetters recently ran out a job with the background knocked out when I know it was set up correctly. After confronting them on this they said that they had a problem with pdf's from indesign with their rip and that they now have a 'workaround'.

This was confusing me but it was just a coincidence that their rip was ripping incorrectly but just happened to be the same result as the incorrect Acrobat preview. (I hope that made sense)

I've printed all the seps from a job I'm currently doing, on my crappy little non postscript Brother, and they all look good. No knockout. (Although they do show knockout in Acrobat)

There has been another upside to all this and that is while experimenting I have accidentally discovered that there is a difference between selecting a text box with the solid arrow tool and using 'Convert To Outlines' and selecting all the text with the Type tool and using 'Convert To Outlines'. The arrow method is much more accurate.