10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

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  1. #21

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    [email]JPS@no.komm[/email] <JPS@no.komm> wrote:
    > If the winning lottery numbers were all odd one year, odd every other
    > week and even on the others the next year, and all even the next year,
    > what would you think? Do all numbers have an equal chance at any given
    > time?
    In the lottery I'd assume (nearly) equal chances.
    With sensors I don't.

    -Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Weisselberg Guest

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  3. #22

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgtt02@sneakemail.com> wrote:
    > [email]JPS@no.komm[/email] <JPS@no.komm> wrote:
    >
    >> The DNG converter is not supposed to alter data at all,
    >
    > Oh yes, it is! Unless the 10D has a Foveon chip, which it hasn't,
    > 3/4 of the data has to be interpolated.
    No, it doesn't. DNG doesn't require interpolation of the sensor data.
    It *allows* it, but by default the DNG converter does not do it.
    >> I have suspected that the camera is cheating ISO 1600 for a
    >> long time,
    >
    > How do you think the camera handles ISO 800, 400, 200, if not by
    > 'cheating', if not by collecting many bits' depth at ISO 100 and
    > --- in the easiest case --- simply bit-shifting them?
    Up to 800, analog gain is used. After that it's a mathematical process.
    This is not exactly news.

    --
    Jeremy | [email]jeremy@exit109.com[/email]
    Jeremy Nixon Guest

  4. #23

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgtt02@sneakemail.com> wrote in news:9nsla2-
    [email]seq.ln1@ID-52418.user.berlin.de[/email]:
    > Oh yes, it is! Unless the 10D has a Foveon chip, which it hasn't,
    > 3/4 of the data has to be interpolated. Think bayer patterns
    > ... and then remember that (customarily) in each row there are
    > green pixels, but red and blue pixels are usually on seperate rows.
    When you do not understand how Bayer interpolation works, it would be
    better if you did not post about it. Thank you.

    For those that are interested:
    The idea that ¾ of the data has to be interpolated is a falsehood created
    by a person on r.p.d under the name Geaorge Preddy. The fact is that each
    pixel location on Bayer grid sensors contains a sensel that captures
    information about one of the three colours (blue, red or green) and the
    other two colour values are calculated based on information from several
    neighbouring sensels as well as the measured data at that location. This
    means that with a Bayer pattern sensor the final output will consist of 2/3
    of the data being interpolated.


    --
    Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
    See my pics at [url]www.gigatech.co.nz[/url] (last updated 12-Nov-04)
    "There are 10 types of people, those that
    understand binary and those that don't"

    MarkH Guest

  5. #24

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800



    [email]JPS@no.komm[/email] wrote:
    >
    > In message <41D7719F.5D7057AD@killspam.127.0.0.1>,
    > Colin D <ColinD@killspam.127.0.0.1> wrote:
    >
    > >Well, I'm quite familiar with bits, bytes, hex and all that, having been
    > >in programming for about 20 years, but I am at a loss to understand what
    > >you are driving at here, John. 12 bits converts to decimal 4095, or
    > >4096 separate steps, but the data in your graphic, since it is for
    > >blackframe, is averaging around 8 or 9 bits (decimal 240 - 268 approx).
    > >The odd numbers imply that bit 0 is a 1, that's all, but I can't see
    > >from this that the highest binary value is represented by 11 bits, or
    > >2048 decimal.
    >
    > >Could you elucidate further, please?
    >
    > If the winning lottery numbers were all odd one year, odd every other
    > week and even on the others the next year, and all even the next year,
    > what would you think? Do all numbers have an equal chance at any given
    > time?
    > --
    With respect, John, lottery winning numbers aren't binary, and I cannot
    see your analogy here.
    I would think that if only 11 bits are being used as you suggest, then
    it will be the most significant bit that will be dropped, not the least
    significant, i.e. bit 0. But that seems to be what you are implying,
    since whether or not a decimal conversion is odd or even depends on the
    state of bit 0. At least that is what I think you are saying, but I may
    have misinterpreted your earlier post.

    A further point that has me confused is that, if the blackframe values
    are represented by an 8- or 9-bit binary number, then even with 12 bits
    available, the entire brightness range of the image has to be
    represented with 3 or 4 bits, i.e. a range of 16:1 max. Yet the images
    appear to have much greater range than that.

    I wll have to read up some more on this, it appears.

    Colin.
    Colin D Guest

  6. #25

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    In message <9nsla2-seq.ln1@ID-52418.user.berlin.de>,
    Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgtt02@sneakemail.com> wrote:
    >JPS@no.komm <JPS@no.komm> wrote:
    >> The DNG converter is not supposed to alter data at all,
    >Oh yes, it is! Unless the 10D has a Foveon chip, which it hasn't,
    >3/4 of the data has to be interpolated.
    All of the data in an RGB output is interpolated (if the method of
    interpolation is worth a dime), and the increase in data from the
    interpolation is equivalent to interpolating 2/3 of it; not 3/4.
    >Think bayer patterns
    >... and then remember that (customarily) in each row there are
    >green pixels, but red and blue pixels are usually on seperate rows.
    Which is totally irrelevant in a dark frame, as no light is passing
    through the Bayer CFA. All the data is from sensor and circuit noise,
    and a possible offset bias.
    >> The fact, however, that the RAW data is all even or odd within patterns
    >> suggests that the data is not really 12-bit at its source, but rather,
    >> 11-bit.
    >
    >This is but one of many possible causes. Programs have been known
    >to have bugs, the bayer pattern interpolation may cause this,
    No, there was no bayer interpolation in the data I was looking at. It
    was *RAW*.
    >a non-perfect sensor (some cameras are even differently sensitive
    >for UV light on their green pixels in alternating rows!) and many
    >other causes may exist.
    You didn't read my post very clearly; did you? The stripes I'm getting
    are vertical, not horizontal. Even if it were a difference between odd
    and even lines for green, there are red and blue on those lines, as
    well. You really wouldn't expect one line of green to be all odd
    values, and the next to be all even, would you? There are solid runs of
    odd pixels and solid runs of even pixels over multiple horizontal lines.
    >> What does this mean for the user? It means that you get the
    >> same quality data by setting the camera to ISO 800 instead of 1600, if
    >> you are shooting RAW, with an EC of -1. It also means that you get an
    >> extra stop of highlights this way, as the camera would clip any value
    >> above 2023 if the camera were set to ISO 1600.
    >
    >Have you actually tested that, or is that just a guess? For all
    >we know, the camera could also compress the highlights, e.g.:
    >0-1800 => 0-3600 (i.e. *= 2)
    >1801-4096 => 1801-2023 (compress) => 3602-4096 (*= 2)
    It doesn't compress the highlights. RAW data is RAW and it is linear!
    >> I have suspected that the camera is cheating ISO 1600 for a
    >> long time,
    >How do you think the camera handles ISO 800, 400, 200, if not by
    >'cheating', if not by collecting many bits' depth at ISO 100 and
    >--- in the easiest case --- simply bit-shifting them?
    Nope. You are just full of error, aren't you? ISOs 100 through 800 are
    achived by amplifying the signal before the ADC stage.
    >> and consequently, I have been setting the camera to ISO 800
    >> instead of ISO 1600 when shooting wildlife at dusk. That way, if there
    >> truly is enough light for ISO 800, I will get the better ISO 800 image,
    >Assuming the image is _better_ in a photographic sense.
    >Something you can _see_ in the finalized picture.
    There is no logical reason why this would not be so. The only
    difference is the ISO setting; same Tv mode shutter speed, and same
    wide-open aperture.
    >> but if there is not enough light, it will shoot a shot that will "push"
    >> to ISO 1600 with the same quality and more dynamic headroom than if the
    >> camera were actually set to ISO 1600!
    >Unless you overexposure your image (so you actually reach that
    >"headroom"), said headroom is purely theoretical and does you not
    >a bit of good. You could as well shoot at 1600 then.
    What for?
    >And if you
    >use anything but RAW (and thus a much more laborious workflow)
    >you loose dynamic range, since JPEG compresses said range ...
    That would require some testing. The JPEG compression would probably
    damage the shadows that you would want to boost.

    In any event, I was talking about RAW, which is what people who want
    maximum quality generally shoot.
    >> I even set the EC to +1 at ISO
    >> 800 sometimes, if there aren't a lot of bright highlights. That will
    >> make the aperture stop down more, when there is sufficient light
    >> (effectively a better ISO 400 than if the camera were actually set to
    >> ISO 400, because more bits represent the subject's dynamic range),
    >
    >So you basically 'expose to the right'?
    > [url]http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml[/url]
    If I can. If things are uncertain, I might play it safe with default
    exposure.
    >> Also, "ISO 3200" or "H" is actually ISO 1600, under-exposed and pushed
    >> by a stop, the same way.
    >
    >And there may be special routines helping the image look better
    >being run as well.
    This is RAW data.

    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
    JPS@no.komm Guest

  7. #26

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    In message <vrsla2-seq.ln1@ID-52418.user.berlin.de>,
    Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgtt02@sneakemail.com> wrote:
    >JPS@no.komm <JPS@no.komm> wrote:
    >
    >> If the winning lottery numbers were all odd one year, odd every other
    >> week and even on the others the next year, and all even the next year,
    >> what would you think? Do all numbers have an equal chance at any given
    >> time?
    >
    >In the lottery I'd assume (nearly) equal chances.
    >With sensors I don't.
    Of course there will be *ranges* of RAW data that are inlikely. Any
    value less than 120 is unlikely with Canon DSLRs. However, every
    *range* has both odd and even numbers, in equal distribution. When the
    same pixels are always odd and others always even, neither has the
    chance of being the other, and there is one bit of precision missing.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
    JPS@no.komm Guest

  8. #27

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    In message <10tgj4ntit7gr71@corp.supernews.com>,
    Jeremy Nixon <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote:
    >Up to 800, analog gain is used. After that it's a mathematical process.
    >This is not exactly news.
    Well, the popular conception is that up to 1600 is analog, and 3200 is
    mathematical (based on 1600 analog). No one believed me in the past
    when I said that "ISO 1600" is actually ISO 800 (analog), pushed
    mathematically. This is sort of a proof, but it also contains a mystery
    (why there are patterns of odd numbers). The only explanation I can
    come up with is that Canon is trying to cheat the histograms. It's
    clearly not visual dithering, because it is inconsistent in the image.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
    JPS@no.komm Guest

  9. #28

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    In message <41D87B16.41FA8189@killspam.127.0.0.1>,
    Colin D <ColinD@killspam.127.0.0.1> wrote:
    >With respect, John, lottery winning numbers aren't binary, and I cannot
    >see your analogy here.
    >I would think that if only 11 bits are being used as you suggest, then
    >it will be the most significant bit that will be dropped, not the least
    >significant, i.e. bit 0. But that seems to be what you are implying,
    >since whether or not a decimal conversion is odd or even depends on the
    >state of bit 0. At least that is what I think you are saying, but I may
    >have misinterpreted your earlier post.
    I believe that I said or implied that all the numbers should be even, if
    only 11 bits are used. The RAW data is in 12-bit format, and the
    numbers 0 through 2047 doubled are 0 through 4094, all even, and all
    with 0 for the least significant bit, in binary.
    >A further point that has me confused is that, if the blackframe values
    >are represented by an 8- or 9-bit binary number, then even with 12 bits
    >available, the entire brightness range of the image has to be
    >represented with 3 or 4 bits, i.e. a range of 16:1 max. Yet the images
    >appear to have much greater range than that.
    Not at all. The camera has pixels which are not exposed to light
    (masked). This "black" data is used to generate a "blackpoint" value,
    probably from some position near the beginning of the expected
    bell-curve histogram for the black pixels. This number is *subtracted*
    from all RAW image values, before conversion to a full RGB bitmap. In
    this case, the value might be 260. That means that the actual image
    uses a range of 260 to 4095, or 0 to 3835 after the blackpoint
    subtraction. That is only slightly less dynamic range than 0 to 4095
    (which will never happen, as the blackpoint is lowest at ISO 100 and
    with a 1/4000 shutter speed is about 126 at room temperature, on the
    10D).
    >I wll have to read up some more on this, it appears.
    I don't know if much is written on this!
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
    JPS@no.komm Guest

  10. #29

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    <JPS@no.komm> wrote:
    >> Up to 800, analog gain is used. After that it's a mathematical process.
    >> This is not exactly news.
    >
    > Well, the popular conception is that up to 1600 is analog, and 3200 is
    > mathematical (based on 1600 analog). No one believed me in the past
    > when I said that "ISO 1600" is actually ISO 800 (analog), pushed
    > mathematically.
    It seems to be that you get four stops of analog gain. Thus, the D70,
    for example, has ISO 200-1600 for "real", but not 100, while the announced
    D2x has 100-800 for "real" and 1600-3200 as digital boost. This seems
    common enough to be expected at this point.

    --
    Jeremy | [email]jeremy@exit109.com[/email]
    Jeremy Nixon Guest

  11. #30

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    [email]JPS@no.komm[/email] <JPS@no.komm> wrote:
    > Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgtt02@sneakemail.com> wrote:
    >>JPS@no.komm <JPS@no.komm> wrote:
    >>> The DNG converter is not supposed to alter data at all,
    >>Oh yes, it is! Unless the 10D has a Foveon chip, which it hasn't,
    >>3/4 of the data has to be interpolated.
    > All of the data in an RGB output is interpolated (if the method of
    > interpolation is worth a dime),
    Naive me had assumed that the blue value on a blue pixel would
    have been taken for it's value (excluding edges in the image).
    >>Think bayer patterns
    >>... and then remember that (customarily) in each row there are
    >>green pixels, but red and blue pixels are usually on seperate rows.
    > Which is totally irrelevant in a dark frame, as no light is passing
    > through the Bayer CFA. All the data is from sensor and circuit noise,
    > and a possible offset bias.
    And it could not be that red, green and blue sensors get any
    different treatment inside the camera, like different gain,
    say, because one of these colors happens to need that to get the
    correct strength?
    >>> The fact, however, that the RAW data is all even or odd within patterns
    >>> suggests that the data is not really 12-bit at its source, but rather,
    >>> 11-bit.
    >>This is but one of many possible causes. Programs have been known
    >>to have bugs, the bayer pattern interpolation may cause this,
    > No, there was no bayer interpolation in the data I was looking at. It
    > was *RAW*.
    You used a converter. You have no knowledge what the
    converter does _inside_.
    >>a non-perfect sensor (some cameras are even differently sensitive
    >>for UV light on their green pixels in alternating rows!) and many
    >>other causes may exist.
    > You didn't read my post very clearly; did you? The stripes I'm getting
    > are vertical, not horizontal.
    The green pixels in different rows are also in different
    columns in any common pattern.
    > Even if it were a difference between odd
    > and even lines for green, there are red and blue on those lines, as
    > well.
    On _alternating_ rows, and on _alternating_ columns.
    > You really wouldn't expect one line of green to be all odd
    > values, and the next to be all even, would you?
    I would expect them all to be zero, in a dark frame, at least
    with dark frame substraction.

    How about you photograph some object at ISO 800, 1600 and H,
    while adjusting the shutter time to get equivalent exposure, run
    the RAWs through dcraw -d (of which you can see what it does)
    and examine the well-documented output format. See if you get
    the same even-odd rows in 1600 and in H. If you are right, you
    should see them there, too. If not, you have hit an artifact
    of sensor noise in dark frame situations. Actually, if you are
    right, you should see the 2 least significant bits in H being,
    ah, unusual, and nothing similar in 800.
    > There are solid runs of
    > odd pixels and solid runs of even pixels over multiple horizontal lines.
    That could well be because of sensor noise in dark frame
    situations.
    >>> What does this mean for the user? It means that you get the
    >>> same quality data by setting the camera to ISO 800 instead of 1600, if
    >>> you are shooting RAW, with an EC of -1. It also means that you get an
    >>> extra stop of highlights this way, as the camera would clip any value
    >>> above 2023 if the camera were set to ISO 1600.
    >>Have you actually tested that, or is that just a guess? For all
    >>we know, the camera could also compress the highlights, e.g.:
    >>0-1800 => 0-3600 (i.e. *= 2)
    >>1801-4096 => 1801-2023 (compress) => 3602-4096 (*= 2)
    > It doesn't compress the highlights.
    If you have pure bitshifting, true.
    > RAW data is RAW and it is linear!
    Not having the source code of the firmware I cannot tell you what
    the camera does. However, it _would_ be a pity to throw away
    all that headroom by bitshifting, and it's not as if it would
    hurt really, or would it?

    By arguing how things should be we don't get answers how they are,
    we get doctrines and should open a church.
    >>How do you think the camera handles ISO 800, 400, 200, if not by
    >>'cheating', if not by collecting many bits' depth at ISO 100 and
    >>--- in the easiest case --- simply bit-shifting them?
    > Nope. You are just full of error, aren't you?
    I also have prejudices, half-knowledge, insults, attacks and a very
    strong oppinion in me, so I scarcely can be *just* full of error.
    > ISOs 100 through 800 are
    > achived by amplifying the signal before the ADC stage.
    Which is --- basically --- the analogue analog of bit shifting
    (plus adding amplifier noise), isn't it?

    The only difference is that the precious 12-bit converter
    is brought into a better range (being exposed to the right,
    basically) and that one hopes that the amplifier noise is below
    the converter's threshold --- otherwise you get one (or more)
    bits of noise and 11 (or less) bits of signal.

    The only reason we bother with analog gain is that we don't
    have better converters and we'd prefer more dynamics at the cost
    of noise. Wait till we have 20-bit converters @ISO 100, then you
    can have 12 bits at ISO 25,600 without any extra analog gain ---
    and people will scream that the sensor 'cheats' and gets them
    less than 20 bits at ISO 6,400.
    >>> and consequently, I have been setting the camera to ISO 800
    >>> instead of ISO 1600 when shooting wildlife at dusk. That way, if there
    >>> truly is enough light for ISO 800, I will get the better ISO 800 image,
    >>Assuming the image is _better_ in a photographic sense.
    >>Something you can _see_ in the finalized picture.
    > There is no logical reason why this would not be so.
    As they say, the proof is in the pudding ...
    Have you tested it?

    After all, according to your logical reason, JPEG will always be
    practically unusable, with most of the data being removed from
    the picture, lossy compression and all that.
    Same with Ogg Vorbis, mp3, DVDs (mpeg compressed), ...
    >>> but if there is not enough light, it will shoot a shot that will "push"
    >>> to ISO 1600 with the same quality and more dynamic headroom than if the
    >>> camera were actually set to ISO 1600!
    >>Unless you overexposure your image (so you actually reach that
    >>"headroom"), said headroom is purely theoretical and does you not
    >>a bit of good. You could as well shoot at 1600 then.
    > What for?
    If you don't use the headroom, what's it's use, except for
    more work to polish the image?
    >>And if you
    >>use anything but RAW (and thus a much more laborious workflow)
    >>you loose dynamic range, since JPEG compresses said range ...
    > That would require some testing. The JPEG compression would probably
    > damage the shadows that you would want to boost.
    JPEG compresses logarithmically.
    > In any event, I was talking about RAW, which is what people who want
    > maximum quality generally shoot.
    And here _I_ thought that would be slides of at least medium
    format, since 100+ megapixel cameras are still somewhat rare.
    >>> Also, "ISO 3200" or "H" is actually ISO 1600, under-exposed and pushed
    >>> by a stop, the same way.
    >>And there may be special routines helping the image look better
    >>being run as well.
    > This is RAW data.
    Does that mean no noise supression on the sensor chip itself?

    -Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Weisselberg Guest

  12. #31

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    [email]JPS@no.komm[/email] <JPS@no.komm> wrote:
    > Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgtt02@sneakemail.com> wrote:
    >>In the lottery I'd assume (nearly) equal chances.
    >>With sensors I don't.
    > Of course there will be *ranges* of RAW data that are inlikely. Any
    > value less than 120 is unlikely with Canon DSLRs. However, every
    > *range* has both odd and even numbers, in equal distribution.
    You assume that there is an equal distribution in the range,
    concerning the physical sensor.
    > When the
    > same pixels are always odd and others always even, neither has the
    > chance of being the other, and there is one bit of precision missing.
    To show to a sufficienrt degree that these self-same pixels are
    _always_ odd or even, you'd need far more than one picture.

    Even if in the "dark frame" range that observation is true ---
    that does not make it necessarily true in brighter ranges at the
    same ISO setting.

    -Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Weisselberg Guest

  13. #32

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    MarkH <markat@atdot.dot.dot> wrote:
    > Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgtt02@sneakemail.com> wrote in news:9nsla2-
    >> Oh yes, it is! Unless the 10D has a Foveon chip, which it hasn't,
    >> 3/4 of the data has to be interpolated. Think bayer patterns
    > When you do not understand how Bayer interpolation works, it would be
    > better if you did not post about it. Thank you.
    You are right, I thinko'ed.
    > For those that are interested:
    > means that with a Bayer pattern sensor the final output will consist of 2/3
    > of the data being interpolated.
    On the average, this is true, and for the green channel only 1/2
    of the pixels need interpolation.

    -Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Weisselberg Guest

  14. #33

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    In message <gl2oa2-9d.ln1@ID-52418.user.berlin.de>,
    Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgtt02@sneakemail.com> wrote:
    >JPS@no.komm <JPS@no.komm> wrote:
    >> Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgtt02@sneakemail.com> wrote:
    >>>In the lottery I'd assume (nearly) equal chances.
    >>>With sensors I don't.
    >> Of course there will be *ranges* of RAW data that are inlikely. Any
    >> value less than 120 is unlikely with Canon DSLRs. However, every
    >> *range* has both odd and even numbers, in equal distribution.
    >You assume that there is an equal distribution in the range,
    >concerning the physical sensor.
    That is a very safe assumption to make; about as safe as assuming that
    the floor is there when I get out of my bed in the morning.
    >> When the
    >> same pixels are always odd and others always even, neither has the
    >> chance of being the other, and there is one bit of precision missing.
    >To show to a sufficienrt degree that these self-same pixels are
    >_always_ odd or even, you'd need far more than one picture.
    I should have said in "the same pattern". I have looked at other
    images, and the pattern is the same, except when the data is clipped at
    4095.
    >Even if in the "dark frame" range that observation is true ---
    >that does not make it necessarily true in brighter ranges at the
    >same ISO setting.
    I looked at image RAW data also; the same thing.

    I really don't understand why you are so stubborn about accepting this
    pattern. It's as plain as the grid on a graph paper, and only exists at
    ISO 1600 and 3200. At 800 and below, any pixel can have an odd or even
    value.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
    JPS@no.komm Guest

  15. #34

    Default Re: 10D ISO 1600 is pushed one stop from 800

    [email]JPS@no.komm[/email] <JPS@no.komm> wrote:
    > Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgtt02@sneakemail.com> wrote:
    >>JPS@no.komm <JPS@no.komm> wrote:
    >>> Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgtt02@sneakemail.com> wrote:
    >>>>In the lottery I'd assume (nearly) equal chances.
    >>>>With sensors I don't.
    >>> Of course there will be *ranges* of RAW data that are inlikely. Any
    >>> value less than 120 is unlikely with Canon DSLRs. However, every
    >>> *range* has both odd and even numbers, in equal distribution.
    >>You assume that there is an equal distribution in the range,
    >>concerning the physical sensor.
    > That is a very safe assumption to make; about as safe as assuming that
    > the floor is there when I get out of my bed in the morning.
    Only assuming a sensor without non-random (coloured) noise and
    a perfect digitizer.
    >>> When the
    >>> same pixels are always odd and others always even, neither has the
    >>> chance of being the other, and there is one bit of precision missing.
    >>To show to a sufficienrt degree that these self-same pixels are
    >>_always_ odd or even, you'd need far more than one picture.
    > I should have said in "the same pattern". I have looked at other
    > images, and the pattern is the same, except when the data is clipped at
    > 4095.
    Do I understand you correctly:
    - you have looked at at least a dozen pictures with ISO
    1600, of several opjects
    - at least half a dozen of these pictures have been exposed
    correctly for ISO1600
    - all of these pictures are in RAW
    - when converting the image file from camera RAW to readable
    RAW again, the identical image comes out (why should any
    'cheat at histograms' algorithm not be in the converter?)
    - all these pictures show a pattern of stripes
    - however, it's not always the same pixels that are even
    and odd, this varies from picture to picture
    - when you turn up the contrast way way high, you can
    actually see the stripes
    or am I missing something?

    > I really don't understand why you are so stubborn about accepting this
    > pattern.
    I do accept that you have seen some pattern in an HEX editor (and
    up to now I only remembered you writing of one single dark frame).

    However, the DNG format is not very trivial --- see for
    yourself[1]. For example, what is the orientation --- it is
    set as a single byte and is not optional. Could your stripes be
    horizontal (page 13)?

    What is the BlackLevel, and the BlackLevel pattern (page 19)
    and BlackLevelDeltaH and BlackLevelDeltaV (page 20) --- and could
    that pattern, as substracted (see page 37), unstripe your observed
    'stripes'?
    > It's as plain as the grid on a graph paper,
    But whatever it is that you see --- is it what you think it is?

    Without the raw data[2] (and not having a 10D, producing them is
    kind of hard) I cannot see what you see, only what you show me,
    interpreted through your eyes. Of course I am sceptic, I owe it
    to myself.
    > and only exists at
    > ISO 1600 and 3200. At 800 and below, any pixel can have an odd or even
    > value.
    But then you'd get only ..0 ..4 ..8 .12 .16 with 3200 (i.e. 2
    unused bits), _unless_ 3200 has more analogue gain than 1600 ... do
    you get that?

    -Wolfgang

    [1] [url]http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/pdfs/dng_spec.pdf[/url]
    [2] .cr2, not the already processed .dng
    Wolfgang Weisselberg Guest

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