Adobe Atmosphere compared to Director

[three_d_monkey webforumsuser@macromedia.com]

Just to be clear:

Key differences:

-- realworld deployment - (half of consumers tested can immediately see
SW3D without downloads)
* Ok well now they say Atmosphere can be embedded in a PDF ( let's talk numbers here...) and since it is integrated with ViewPoint, that number goes even higher (yes millions) What does this mean? Well the fact is a lot of people have the Flash Player NOT Shockwave player. I live for commenst like that...

-- generalized modeling... no rendering distinction between primitives
and custom geometry (a la Viewpoint inside Atmosphere)
* Not true anymore, should have gone to Siggraph this year and seen their demo. (Lightwave had a great demo too, but i digress)

-- integration into full media engine... custom interfaces
yes, this will probably be true from what i have seen, but Atmosphere integrates quite nicely ina web page as does a Shockwave file.

-- specific features like subdivision surfaces, multires mesh,
programmatic control over surfaces and lights, all the rest... tons here
* Yeah, Ok, but so does Atmosphere. This may have been true but not anymore.

For games, Director is probably a closer match... Atmosphere betas are
designed for navigation-in-virtual-world-with-chat... the
Intel/Macromedia 3D engine is more of a general-purpose rendering engine.

*Yes if all you want to do is games, I think Shockwave is great. Don't get me wrong you can do very cool games in Atmosphere and without learning a new language (Lingo). Most web monkey's (like me) know JavaScript. Atmosphere is not about just chat but if you want to add it in it is free. If you really have an interest in Web 3D check both out and draw your own conclusions.

Americo's sight is only so-so, yes, he has some interesting demo's but for the flavor of what can be done check these out: [url]www.cyber3d.info/[/url] [url]www.roce.org/atmosphere.html[/url] [url]www.atmospherians.com/[/url]

So MY recomendation: if you are a professional and have good skill in programming: Director is a choice as is Atmosphere. Try them then report back to us here!

cheers,
3d moneky!

[Karl Sigiscar]

Hi,

I'd like to react to your posts.

In 1997, I got interested in VRML and was following all the buzz around the
new Web3D standard. I started learning the VRML language and created some
scenes. That same year, VRML 2 was released (aka VRML 97), and later became
an ISO standard. Fine. But a consortium standard is not as good as a de
facto standard. Businesses are more interested in the latter. VRML didn't
catch up. Everybody knows that. Why did it fail ? Because there were a dozen
different VRML plugins, not only one. Each had different specs. Each had
different performances (some were fast but unstable, others were stable but
slow). There were different scripting languages (Javascript/Java or VRML
script) and so on. It couldn't have been worse. It's no wonder it didn't
work. Had there been the Blaxxun plugin from day one and only that player (a
standard needs only one player whose specs are maintained centrally), it
could have worked. But you had the Silicon Graphics VRML plugin (Cosmo
Player), the Sony VRML plugin and so on...

Between the release of VRML 97 and the release of Shockwave 3D in 2001,
there were more than 40 Web3D technologies released...

Cult3D
Pulse 3D
ViewPoint (formerly MetaStream)
Superscape
Virtools Player
Mendel 3D
WildTangent
Adobe Atmosphere
Java 3D
X3D
....

SO WHAT ? THAT'S SIMPLY RIDICULOUS !

To give you an idea of the STUPIDITY of having dozens of different Web3D
plugins, just so that users and businesses are confused and unwilling to get
into it, here is a full list:
[url]http://www.3d-test.com/test/[/url]

A video game company well versed in both 2D and 3D estimated that 3D
multiplies by 10 the time necessary for everything from design to
production, graphics, animation and programming. The web is for everybody,
not only for 3D video games professionals (I was one before focusing on
Web3D). THEY have the knowledge. Unfortunately, only a handful of them are
willing to get into Web3D, because the Internet is all about standards. And
they don't wan't to "get their hands dirty" with such technologies as
Director. They despise Shockwave 3D. I despise them. Because of such people,
unable to understand the need for a Web3D standard, there are dozens of
Web3D technologies, confusing Internet users. 3D developers - who know
C/C++/Assembly language - all want to create THEIR OWN Web3D technology. For
them, it's a question of pride.

People who do not come from a video games background have a harder time
understanding RealTime 3D concepts and to get into Web3D (though it's
possible, fortunately). As I said, web publishing is for everybody, not only
for 3D experts.

The Intel/Macromedia/Discreet alliance is the strongest initiative that ever
was to create a de facto standard rather than a consortium standard like
VRML 97 or X3D. With Macromedia, you have a good 3D technology (Intel
scalable 3D web graphics), a widespread plugin (Shockwave), a comfortable
programming environment (Director) and the standard 3D tool for realtime 3D
(3DS Max). No other technology comes close when it comes to having all these
strong points. One might have one of them, but not all the strong points
Shockwave 3D has.

I know the Virtools Web3D plugin has a better rendering than Shockwave 3D
(for example, it manages curved surfaces). But I don't care. Because it's
not a standard, I won't use it.

Once a Web3D technology will become a de facto standard (and I hope
Shockwave 3D will), the question will not be anymore :

- What Web3D technology shall I use ?

But

- What content shall I create ?

And I can assure you businesses and customers DO NOT GIVE A DAMN about
technology. They just don't care about it. Final users want to be
entertained, well informed and satisfied, marketing people want their
products to look good, the manager wants good return on inverstment (ROI),
finance people want to keep the whole thing at a reasonable cost and so
on...


MAY A DE FACTO WEB 3D STANDARD EMERGE, WHATEVER IT IS.


Regards,
Karl Sigiscar.

[Karl Sigiscar]

Another point I didn't discuss yet.

No matter what Web3D technology you use, the result depends on the talent of
the graphic artist and the talent of the developer.

With Shockwave 3D, you can do e-commerce, not only games, using the plugin
streaming capabilities (seldom used, but they do exist). You can stream the
mesh and textures which gradually display with finer and finer details just
as you would in ViewPoint. You have to link the 3D cast member rather than
embedding it in your .dir. Use FTP to place your W3D on a server. Select
Import > Media Element > Shockwave 3D then type or paste the URL to your W3D
in the filename field of the Property Inspector. Also, you have to set the
user defined properties in 3DS Max/Plasma/Maya/Lightwave.

For example, to give a 3D model the lowest stream priority so it doesn't get
loaded with the Initial Loading Segment (ILS), add this line in the User
Properies tab in 3DS Max:

sw3d_stream_priority = 256;

Export, the W3D and put it online.The model will stream when you launch your
3D app.

[markus halbritter]

An important point for the professional developer is the license issues.

Shockwave3D content can be distributed, as long as you have bought
Director. Viewpoint, for example, has a license model, where you pay
for a site for a period of time (e.g. [url]www.mycool3Dcontent.com[/url] for 12
month), and the license costs can be very high (over $10000 for popular
sites).

This is a clear advantage for Shockwave I think.

Viewpoint on the other hand has much smaller file sizes (better
compression algorithms), which is also an important point.

greetz markus





Karl Sigiscar wrote:

> Another point I didn't discuss yet.
>
> No matter what Web3D technology you use, the result depends on the talent of
> the graphic artist and the talent of the developer.
>
> With Shockwave 3D, you can do e-commerce, not only games, using the plugin
> streaming capabilities (seldom used, but they do exist). You can stream the
> mesh and textures which gradually display with finer and finer details just
> as you would in ViewPoint. You have to link the 3D cast member rather than
> embedding it in your .dir. Use FTP to place your W3D on a server. Select
> Import > Media Element > Shockwave 3D then type or paste the URL to your W3D
> in the filename field of the Property Inspector. Also, you have to set the
> user defined properties in 3DS Max/Plasma/Maya/Lightwave.
>
> For example, to give a 3D model the lowest stream priority so it doesn't get
> loaded with the Initial Loading Segment (ILS), add this line in the User
> Properies tab in 3DS Max:
>
> sw3d_stream_priority = 256;
>
> Export, the W3D and put it online.The model will stream when you launch your
> 3D app.
>
>

[Karl Sigiscar]

Hello Markus,

Recently, I localized an existing ViewPoint content for a client. Indeed, I
was amazed to see the cost of the license for ViewPoint. My client is a
worldwide group and pays the license for ViewPoint for each and every
website they have (i.e .fr, .de, .ie, .it and so on). It costs an eye and a
leg. In comparison, they would just have to pay for the Director MX license
if they would use Shockwave 3D instead.

ViewPoint sends you a broadcastkey.mtx stating all the domain names for
which you buy the license. Very expensive.

(A good point for ViewPoint is that you can also integrate Flash contents)

Regards,
Karl.

[Karl Sigiscar]

One of my colleagues just told me to remember what happened when my
customers' ViewPoint license expired after 12 months: ViewPoint logos
displayed all over the Web3D content. Well, nice... pay again.

[Karl Sigiscar]

I checked a ViewPoint broadcastkey.mtx license file again.

To end up on that VIEWPOINT RIP OFF, you don't pay for each domain name, YOU
PAY A LIMITED TIME LICENSE FOR EACH HOSTNAME on a given domain on which a
ViewPoint content is deployed. I.e www1.domainname.com, www2.domainname.com,
www1.anotherdomainename.com and so on...

[John Dowdell]

"three_d_monkey" [email]webforumsuser@macromedia.com[/email] wrote:

> Just to be clear:

>> Key differences:
>> -- realworld deployment - (half of consumers tested can immediately see
>> SW3D without downloads)

> * Ok well now they say Atmosphere can be embedded in a PDF ( let's
> talk numbers here...) and since it is integrated with ViewPoint,
> that number goes even higher (yes millions) What does this mean?
> Well the fact is a lot of people have the Flash Player NOT Shockwave
> player. I live for commenst like that...

Wow... I remember writing the quoted words a long time ago... how far
did you go back to dig them up...?

What I said was accurate, and still is, and your digression is
structurally unsound. Go look at the NPD consumer viewership audits:
[url]http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census[/url]

Acrobat and Shockwave viewerships are in the same range. The Viewpoint
*stub* (not its full abilities!) are way down the chart. Any viewer for
Atmosphere content is beneath measurement.

Half of all consumers tested can immediately see Shockwave 3D content.
No other 3D engine approaches that realworld deployment.


(For the feature sets, they may have demo'd something months after I
wrote that newsgroup article, but heck, Atmosphere announced two weeks
before Shockwave 3D and still hasn't reached even 1.0, years later!
Saying "yeah, we'll do that too" in perpetual beta just spins wheels...
at some point you've got to ship at least one version.)

jd



--
John Dowdell, Macromedia Developer Support, San Francisco CA
Search technotes: [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/[/url]
Soapbox column: [url]http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/[/url]
Daily technical diary: [url]http://www.macromedia.com/go/blog_jd[/url]
Offlist mail is trapped by spam-filters... best here, thanks!

[Americo webforumsuser@macromedia.com]

Only to remember. We have tutorials and demos about Director 3D at:
[url]http://www.dmu.com/3dd[/url]
And tutorials and demos about Atmosphere at:
[url]http://www.dmu.com[/url]
It's not easy to talk about Atmosphere because it's a beta product now, having many bugs and many enhancements to be done until the 1.0 version.
A professional only can use now Director.




Referring URLs
[url]http://www.dmu.com/3dd[/url]
[url]http://www.dmu.com[/url]

[three_d_monkey webforumsuser@macromedia.com]

Geez dude read your own post, Jan 2002, which I imagine is the last time you saw that product.

Sorry but no, what you said is not accurate.
Hey they are YOUR numbers. I don't want to get into how companies market/fake numbers because I think we can agree that Flash, Acrobat have huge markets. To say it doesn't is just foolish.
ViewPoint, Shockwave do not come close but are probably closer than you would like to believe...

"Acrobat and Shockwave viewerships are in the same range." I know you may not like Adobe but you are high if you think this...

You need to do some homework if you want to take up this dicussion, Atmosphere is suppose to be shipping before years end. I assume they are telling the truth.

You can harp on Director being this or that but the 2 are not equal products, quite different and THAT is what this discussion is about.
Besides isn't Director now dead? Rumor has it you have stopped developingt it. And it cetainly looks like Intel jumped ship...

3d Monkey

PS:
You can actually show ViewPoint objects within an Atmosphere environment... no license fee...

[Karl Sigiscar]

I heard once that Intel and Macromedia signed up for two releases of the
Scalable 3D graphics Intel optimizer,
the technology that is both implemented in Shockwave 3D and 3DS Max for
realtime display.
So far, only one has been delivered. This technology is independant from
Shockwave 3D and keeps evolving at the Intel IAL lab. As far as I know, its
development has never ceased since 1996, when it was then implemented as an
Intel plugin.

Late 2002, Discreet released Plasma. It has been designed both for Flash and
Shockwave 3D content creation.
In february 2003, the new version of the Shockwave 3D exporter plugin was
released for 3DS Max 5.
Intel wrote the exporter plugin for both Plasma and 3DS Max 5. It looks like
they are still involved.

Director dead ? Why are so many CD-Roms/DVDs and websites still released
using it ?

Director MX was released in early 2003. Though it does not have a new
release of the Scalable 3D graphics Intel optimizer
for Shockwave 3D, the Object Inspector is a nice new feature and allows not
only to see all the assets of a W3D,
but also to change properties at runtime in the authoring environment, which
is very useful.

Director MX was a complete overhaul of the interface and the app is now part
of the MX family of products. It also integrates Flash MX, Flash Remoting
Server MX, as well as QuickTime 6. That's enough for a Director release. It
makes sense Macromedia have not implemented new 3D features in MX. They can
build on it now as they built on Director 8 to make Director 8.5

There are already so many 3D features available in Shockwave 3D. For most
web users who are not 3D experts, these
are more than enough. They don't need the latest version of Direct X/Open GL
implemented right now, though it would be nice.

Adobe is the greatest contender to Macromedia. They are comparable in their
businesses and market position,
though Macromedia is more geared towards development, and Adobe more towards
graphics.
The strength of Adobe has always been a very good ergonomy in their user
interfaces that others only try and copy.

As I said, I don't care about who will win the game in the end, businesses
care about having a multipurpose Web3D standard they can rely on once and
for all. It's no part of the fun for them to change the rules all the time.
Big companies make technology decisions for the years to come. Once the
decision is made, they stick to what they have. It has better be a long
lasting technology.

I agree with the bottom line point. That's the only point in the end.
Technology is always both overvalued and undervalued. That's not the point,
but at the same time, it's crucial and at the heart of business decisions.

[Karl Sigiscar]

If Adobe Atmosphere is IE only, then I believe Macromedia is somewhat more
open as Shockwave 3D runs both on IE and NS...

I 'ms fond of Mac OS X and I also use Windows 2000/XP.

I guess there is some place for SVG next to Flash and for Atmosphere next to
Shockwave 3D.

But seeing dozens of different Web3D technologies springing up is something
that harms Web3D and prevents it from catching up, aside from the difficulty
non-experts have to think in 3D.

Karl.

[three_d_monkey webforumsuser@macromedia.com]

>> I believed Adobe's ship date the first year they promised it. I was
surprised when they didn't even hit the second year after the promises.
Now, I don't disbelieve they might hit 1.0 this third year, but I don't
automatically believe it either. I'll wait until they ship 1.0 before
predicting it.<<

Ok John D here it is: " Adobe Atmosphere, scheduled for release 19 November, will sell for US$399 and will be available through downlod from the company's website."

> The fact is the x3d consortium has accepted Adobe's (Atmosphere)
> plan as the standard.

??? I can't Google anything on this remarkable turnabout... citation,
please?

- I can't find it anymore either. Oh well, don't know what happened there, not even a cached google page.

> Besides isn't Director now dead? Rumor has it you have stopped
> developingt it.

>> Why is it that only the anonymous posters put such unattributed and

damaging drivel into public conversation? <<

Uh no, John Byrne from Louisiana - registered on Yahoo. Why, do you want to send me flowers?

>> The Director team is working one floor above me as we speak. <<

Ok, just wasn't what I heard at Siggraph this year.

>> I resent cheap arguments like that. <<

Ok, but you present plenty of cheap arguments IMHO ( on this froum and Adobe's forum.) Don't shoot the messenger - Intel is no longer your partner right? And I did see Adobe at the Siggraph 2003 Intel booth - go figure...

I believe Adobe finally has a competitive 3D platform, probably good enough to squeeze a sizeable market share from Director (3D).

>>Put your reputation on the line, and post with your real name and links.<<

And um what links should I post?
How about this one:
[url]http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/200310/102203ATMOSPHERE.html[/url]

have a good one!
John B./three_d_monkey