AI CS: won't print copies from transform effect

[Joshua_D_Carter@adobeforums.com]

Hi all,

I have several things I frequently print on labels and such where there's one master and several copies (one per label) on the page. In Illustrator 10, I'd select a layer and apply a transform effect with 1..n copies and horizontal or vertical offset. Then I'd apply a second transform (if needed) for the other rows/columns of labels. This works great.

Now enter Illustrator CS. Files from AI 10 and newly created files have the same issue: the copies show up on screen, but when I go to print, only the master is shown. This is how it appears in the print preview, and also how it prints when sent to the printer. As far as I can tell, any copies made using the transform effect just vanish. I'm printing to a PostScript printer (Color LaserJet 4600) and also tried the print preview (but not actual print) with my inkjet selected as the active printer. No dice.

What in the world is going on? Any advice? For the time being, I've switched back to AI 10, but this is quite bogus. I paid good money for the CS upgrade, but it's useless if I can't print an important part of my business packaging materials with it.

Many thanks for any advice,
Josh

FWIW, steps to reproduce:
- Create new document
- Draw a couple squares on Layer 1
- Select Layer 1
- Select Effect -> Distort and Transform -> Transform...
- Set Move:Horizontal to 4 in, Copies to 1
- Canvas now displays two sets of squares
- Select File -> Print...
- Preview only displays original set of squares

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

Here's what happens for me:

If I select Layer 1, by Option clicking its name in the Layers palette, and apply the transform, it both displays correctly in print preview and prints correctly.

If I target the layer by clicking the little circle to the left of its name in the Layers palette, it displays incorrectly in print preview, but still prints correctly.

[Joshua_D_Carter@adobeforums.com]

Hi Gary,

Thanks for pointing out my error -- I meant to say "target Layer 1." I tried your test, and indeed it does work when the layer is selected by option-clicking the name. However, it doesn't really work the way I intend. If you add another object to the layer, that object does not get copied. The transform-copy only applies to the object that were in the layer when you applied it (i.e. it was applied to the objects themselves, not the layer) whereas a true layer effect should work on all contents of the layer.

I'm pretty sure that targeting is what was intended for this case. From the AI CS online documentation: "Before you can set an appearance attribute or apply a style or an effect to a layer, group, or object, you must target the item in the Layers palette."

Is my logic here correct, or am I missing something?

Thanks and best regards,
Josh

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

No, I think your logic is correct - targeting the layer is what you should be doing. And on a Postscript printer, I get it neither previewing nor printing correctly. And unfortunately, it doesn’t do any better when saving to PDF. I’d call this a rather bad bug.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Gentlemen, when you apply the Transform effect to the OBJECTS ON THE LAYER
(by option-clicking on the layer or by clicking the layer's selection rectangle), the
effect is applied to each object as opposed to every object on the layer (note the
filled appearance target next to each object but the unfilled one next to the layer).
By contrast, when you target the layer (by clicking its appearance target), you're
applying the effect to the LAYER (including, Joshua, any new objects you add AFTER
applying the effect.

The reason the preview, print output, and PDF) are "wrong" when you target the
layer is that the effect is being applied BELOW the Contents (note where it is in the
Appearance palette). Drag it above the contents and the preview and output problem
is solved. The question, of course, is WHY the effect is being applied below (or as
Teri says "after") the layer's objects.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Hmm. I detailed what I think is the fix above. But the phenomenon isn't all that
simple. For example, if I drag the effect above the Contents in the appearance
palette, the print preview is corrected as I suggest. But if I then drag the effect
back below the Contents and check the print preview, it's STILL correct. And
if I undo a few steps back to before I applied the effect and reapply it (so that
it's below the Contents), the print preview is correct.

Like I said: Hmm.

[Joshua_D_Carter@adobeforums.com]

Doug,

I understand the concept of applying the effect to the layer instead of the objects in the layer -- that's why I was targeting the layer when applying the effect. But you can hardly blame Gary or I for being very puzzled by this issue when the exact same steps in AI 10 and AI CS produce identical results on-screen but different results when printing. It's not like I'm doing any rocket-science weird stuff with the program, either -- these steps are simple and should work.

Curiously, the ordering in the Apperance palette is the same between AI 10 and AI CS. Using the steps I described above, the order for Layer 1 in both versions is:

Contents
Transform
Default Transparency

So I'll add a second question to yours (why the effect is being applied below the contents): why did this work in AI 10?

All that said, rearranging the items in the Apperance palette works great. Thanks very much for the solution!

Best regards,
Josh

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Josh, far be it from me to blame Gary or you for being very puzzled. Clearly
I was too - and still am. That's why I went exploring it.

And, given the fact that AI10 ordered the appearance palette items the same
way without these odd results, I'd hardly call my workaround a solution. More
a way to handle it until it's fixed!

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

Thanks, Doug, for pointing out the workaround. It is pretty odd, though.

[Teri Pettit]

It sounds like a definite bug to me.

Transform is generally meant to be applied as a "post effect", that is, one which gets inserted at the bottom of the effect list, since you usually want to paint things and then transform them, not transform them and then paint them.

The bug seems to be that it is not printing the "styled art" of the Layer, but instead printing just the "Contents". Probably this got broken as part of all the extensive changes to the Print architecture.

So what is happening when you move the Transform to precede the Contents is that the "styled art" of all the content objects already includes the Transform effect. For a simple Move transform, that's probably OK. You generally wouldn't want a Scale or Rotate effect to be applied as a pre-effect, though.

If having the Transform as a pre-effect gets troublesome, another workaround is to put the objects in the Layer into a group, and target that group, and let the Transform stay as a post-effect. Then when you want to insert new elements, insert them into the group.

By the way, have you tried this with any other effects, especially ones that you would need to apply as post-effects, such as Drop Shadow?

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Welcome home, Teri. Hope it was a blast.

Listen, after I discovered that I could get the printing and print preview
to work by pushing the Effect up above the Contents, I found that it
could THEN be returned to below/after the Contents and all would be
well. It's just the INITIAL application of this effect that seems to be bugged
(haven't tried any others).

[Joshua_D_Carter@adobeforums.com]

Thanks all for your very helpful replies. Teri: I tried several other effects, including: 3d extrude and bevel; scribble; transform with scaling (no copies); drop shadow; and several others. All looked fine in the print preview. It appears that only the transform-copy is broken. Also interesting: if I do a transform-copy and then a drop shadow, the print preview shows the shadows for the copied objects but not the copies themselves.

Fortunately, Doug provided a work-around so I can switch back to using AICS. But for the purposes of notifying Adobe so they can get this filed as a bug: what's the best way to do that? Sorry, I don't know if any people on the forums are Adobe employees.

Many thanks (again),
Josh

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Josh, Teri is not only an Adobe professional, she's the best in the joint.

[Joshua_D_Carter@adobeforums.com]

Doug: I suspected as such. :) I'll trust this issue is in good hands from here.

Best regards,
Josh

[Teri Pettit]

I'm by no means the best engineer on the Illustrator team, just the most active here.

And I'm very surprised that the bug is in only the Transform effect, since there were no changes to the Transform Copy code for AI CS, although there were changes to the printing and layer handling code in general. (I wrote the Transform effect in AI 9, but I don't think it has changed since then, other than to be slightly updated to handle new object types like Symbols in AI 10 and the new text engine for AI CS.)

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

.... and the most humble....