An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Mike Brannigan [MSFT] · Mike Brannigan [MSFT]

Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" <NOSPAMireallydontlikeyoubillygates@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:Xns93B438BFFE6CCreallydontlikebillyg@207.46.2 48.16...

> Hello, Microsoft.
>
> I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am
> supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> products.
>

This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)

> Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics in
> certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved to
> the selected location."

Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.

Are you Save As. Web page complete.
This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to that
contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to
creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.

Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
content embedded.

On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better
results ([url]www.ibm.com[/url] was one test that worked better as single file)

> I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked

for

> the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what the
> error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make

sure

> I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet Explorer
> 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
> Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge base.
> That would be helpful.
>

The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
If you go to the Knowledgebase at
[url]http://support.microsoft.com/[/url]
Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
topics-
enter
"The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
and Using ... The exact phrase entered

Produces one result
[url]http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589[/url]

Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??

> Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, hang
> on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS IN
> THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d

location"

> has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the page,
> no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge base,
> unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that was
> released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original

question

> was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I
> know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to

save

> the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it doesn't
> work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having broken
> it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken it,
> you were planning on doing anything about it.
>

Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I found.

> And then I tried to ask you that.
>
> I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to get
> to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at your
> company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely
> impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company. But
> because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You told
> me to go to Dell. As it were.
>

The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up to
Dell to provide you with support.

> Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, Dell

did

> not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? Dell
> doesn't know what you've done.
>

Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to technical
data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an OEM
machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the only
ones who can provide the required support.
Dell do and can know "what we have done"

> Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. Other
> people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I might've
> liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
> thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big game
> in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal with
> you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I buy
> a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would like
> Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I

cannot

> get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
>

You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems or
non at all.
You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
ship.
See comment above about OEM support.
If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements (including)
choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.

> I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I decided
> to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed it.
> It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version. Meaning
> it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There was a
> rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
>

Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.

> Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At this
> point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
> responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you

great

> jolly megalith, you.
>
> I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours every
> damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on a
> soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
>

> Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
> (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows
> XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you don't
> offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
>
> But...I bought it in this country.
>
> Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
> Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.
>

Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ? Was
it a grey import ?
If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
(please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where you
are.)

> I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went

through

> every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the

phone!

> That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to Dell
> for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
>

Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to
provide the necessary support on the product.
They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and also
to raise bugs etc should that be needed.

> But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your "communities"
> for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full of
> bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like most of
> your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
> question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can figure
> out the answer to that.
>

Do you mean here
[url]http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx[/url]
or
[url]http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx[/url]

Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.

> I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups. Ninety
> trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden, cookie-
> filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't
> get much more modern than a newsgroup.

What would you prefer?
This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that the
technical community operate in.

> Of course, fewer and fewer people
> are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use newsgroups.
> But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve technical
> help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for a
> computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
> software.
>

We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide
support for their OEM supplied products.

There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
advice on setting up real newsreader programs.

> Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
> Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour before.
> Elegant.
>

Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and then
may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services. The
web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.

> And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming
> Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to use
> the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to protect
> essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week, when
> the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take out
> a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable

personal

> information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
> planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
> bothering you with my little problems.
>

If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made no
effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
otherwise) - then this is not our fault.

> (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive "is
> not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because

I'm

> smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I can
> make my computer's life a little easier.)
>

ok

> Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
> certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar references
> just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account

just

> so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the useless
> support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID which
> is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
> that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which of
> these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us all
> your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to screw
> people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
> really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the whole
> world. Let's hope, anyway.)
>
> But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've taken
> such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me click
> inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You really

do

> care!
>

Yes - we do.

> Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
>
> Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
>
> Neil Obstat

Kadaitcha Man · Kadaitcha Man

Are you drunk or illiterate?

Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:

> condusive

Condusive?

> Are you Save As. Web page complete.

Huh?

> This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving

Addtional? Locvation?

> Dell do and can know "what we have done"?

Huh?

> creat this addtional folder

Creat? Addtional?

> Clcik the link

Clcik?

> vendors with other opertaing

Opertaing?

> The web is not a linear construct people enter from
> various directions.

Eh?

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - [url]http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/[/url]
Anarchy is having to put up with things that piss you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

Will Denny · Will Denny

Hi Cass

I've stopped my attacks on MVPs - perhaps you could lower you language a tad.

Will

> Congratulations, Michael! You deserve a medal for making it all the way to
> the end of that diatribe without calling it a 'moron', 'fuckwit', 'cretin',
> 'idiot' or any combination of the aforementioned. The original message
> didn't appear on my server (but I'm so glad you quoted it in its entirety -
> I needed the laugh!) so I can't check its message headers, but I'm glad it
> doesn't live on our fair isle! It doesn't even appear to know what OS it's
> running as, for some bizarro-world (yep, I'm a Simpsons nut...) reason he
> posted to a 98 group. You must remember the classic urban myth of a WP
> employee telling a customer to repackage his system because he was too
> stupid to own a computer? Methinks Dell (or MS!) should tell this fuckwit
> the same! ;o)
>
> Blessed be,
>
> Cass

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003

Kadaitcha Man · Kadaitcha Man

Will Denny wrote:

> I've stopped my attacks on MVPs

But only because you have come to realise that those "attacks" were
pot-kettle-black lames.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - [url]http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/[/url]
Anarchy is having to put up with things that piss you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

Ted · Ted

"Amethyst" <amethyst@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:bejjou$94l$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...

> Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:

>
> Congratulations, Michael! You deserve a medal for making it all the way to
> the end of that diatribe without calling it a 'moron', 'fuckwit', 'cretin',
> 'idiot' or any combination of the aforementioned. The original message
> didn't appear on my server (but I'm so glad you quoted it in its entirety -
> I needed the laugh!) so I can't check its message headers, but I'm glad it
> doesn't live on our fair isle! It doesn't even appear to know what OS it's
> running as, for some bizarro-world (yep, I'm a Simpsons nut...) reason he
> posted to a 98 group. You must remember the classic urban myth of a WP
> employee telling a customer to repackage his system because he was too
> stupid to own a computer? Methinks Dell (or MS!) should tell this fuckwit
> the same! ;o)

You're such a lame cunt! While you attack others about proper posting, and spelling, you congratulate the MS host spelling fuckwit with praise. Only a fruitloop bint such as yourself, would think such an inconsistency, consistent!

David Candy · David Candy

You know you aren't going to be picked anytime soon as a case study on how to deal with irate customers sucessfully.

--
[url]http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm[/url]
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
[url]http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros[/url]
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" <mikebran@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:u8uuMXtRDHA.2148@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> Neil,
>
> Comments inline
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>
> "Neil Obstat" <NOSPAMireallydontlikeyoubillygates@hotmail.com> wrote in
> message news:Xns93B438BFFE6CCreallydontlikebillyg@207.46.2 48.16...

> > Hello, Microsoft.
> >
> > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am
> > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > products.
> >

>
> This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
> support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
>

> > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics in
> > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved to
> > the selected location."

>
> Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
>
> Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to that
> contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to
> creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
>
> Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
> content embedded.
>
> On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better
> results ([url]www.ibm.com[/url] was one test that worked better as single file)
>

> > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked

> for

> > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what the
> > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make

> sure

> > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet Explorer
> > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
> > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge base.
> > That would be helpful.
> >

>
> The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> [url]http://support.microsoft.com/[/url]
> Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
> topics-
> enter
> "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
> and Using ... The exact phrase entered
>
> Produces one result
> [url]http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589[/url]
>
> Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??
>
>

> > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, hang
> > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS IN
> > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d

> location"

> > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the page,
> > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge base,
> > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that was
> > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original

> question

> > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I
> > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to

> save

> > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it doesn't
> > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having broken
> > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken it,
> > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> >

>
> Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I found.
>

> > And then I tried to ask you that.
> >
> > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to get
> > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at your
> > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely
> > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company. But
> > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You told
> > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> >

>
> The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up to
> Dell to provide you with support.
>

> > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, Dell

> did

> > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? Dell
> > doesn't know what you've done.
> >

>
> Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to technical
> data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an OEM
> machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the only
> ones who can provide the required support.
> Dell do and can know "what we have done"
>

> > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. Other
> > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I might've
> > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
> > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big game
> > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal with
> > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I buy
> > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would like
> > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I

> cannot

> > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> >

>
> You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems or
> non at all.
> You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
> ship.
> See comment above about OEM support.
> If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements (including)
> choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
>

> > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I decided
> > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed it.
> > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version. Meaning
> > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There was a
> > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> >

>
> Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.
>

> > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At this
> > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
> > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you

> great

> > jolly megalith, you.
> >
> > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours every
> > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on a
> > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> >

>
>

> > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
> > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows
> > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you don't
> > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> >
> > But...I bought it in this country.
> >
> > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
> > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.
> >

>
> Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ? Was
> it a grey import ?
> If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
> (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where you
> are.)
>

> > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went

> through

> > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the

> phone!

> > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to Dell
> > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> >

>
> Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
> possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to
> provide the necessary support on the product.
> They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and also
> to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
>

> > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your "communities"
> > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full of
> > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like most of
> > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
> > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can figure
> > out the answer to that.
> >

> Do you mean here
> [url]http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx[/url]
> or
> [url]http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx[/url]
>
> Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
>

> > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups. Ninety
> > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden, cookie-
> > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't
> > get much more modern than a newsgroup.

>
> What would you prefer?
> This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that the
> technical community operate in.
>

> > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use newsgroups.
> > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve technical
> > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for a
> > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
> > software.
> >

>
> We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide
> support for their OEM supplied products.
>
> There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
> advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
>

> > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
> > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour before.
> > Elegant.
> >

>
> Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and then
> may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services. The
> web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
>

> > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming
> > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to use
> > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to protect
> > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week, when
> > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take out
> > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable

> personal

> > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
> > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
> > bothering you with my little problems.
> >

>
> If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made no
> effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
> otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
>

> > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive "is
> > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because

> I'm

> > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I can
> > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> >

>
> ok
>

> > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
> > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar references
> > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account

> just

> > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the useless
> > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID which
> > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
> > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which of
> > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us all
> > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to screw
> > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
> > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the whole
> > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> >
> > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've taken
> > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me click
> > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You really

> do

> > care!
> >

>
> Yes - we do.
>

> > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
> >
> > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> >
> > Neil Obstat

>
>
>

Kadaitcha Man · Kadaitcha Man

David Candy wrote:

(On Mike Brannigan [Microsoft])

> You know you aren't going to be picked anytime soon as a case study
> on how to deal with irate customers sucessfully.

Muck Brobdingnagian {MSFT] should be reported for that post.

> It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is
> up to Dell to provide you with support.

> We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs
> provide support for their OEM supplied products.

What a marvellous advertisement for Microsoft -- "You got screwed, we don't
give a fuck."

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - [url]http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/[/url]
Anarchy is having to put up with things that piss you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

Mike Brannigan [MSFT] · Mike Brannigan [MSFT]

Sorry David, is there a problem with my response ?

I have addressed the direct issue, confirmed that the KB does provide at
least a valid result on the search criteria he used, have requested his
feedback where he saw a deficiency, have asked for qualification of which
pages he has trouble with and have offered solutions or areas for him to
additionally investigate.
And all of this in the face of a fairly hostile rant.

Did I miss something?

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"David Candy" <david@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:un$n6AuRDHA.3796@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
You know you aren't going to be picked anytime soon as a case study on how
to deal with irate customers sucessfully.

--
[url]http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm[/url]
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
[url]http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros[/url]
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" <mikebran@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:u8uuMXtRDHA.2148@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> Neil,
>
> Comments inline
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>
> "Neil Obstat" <NOSPAMireallydontlikeyoubillygates@hotmail.com> wrote in
> message news:Xns93B438BFFE6CCreallydontlikebillyg@207.46.2 48.16...

> > Hello, Microsoft.
> >
> > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am
> > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > products.
> >

>
> This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
> support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
>

> > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics

in

> > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved to
> > the selected location."

>
> Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
>
> Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to

that

> contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to
> creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
>
> Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
> content embedded.
>
> On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better
> results ([url]www.ibm.com[/url] was one test that worked better as single file)
>

> > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked

> for

> > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what the
> > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make

> sure

> > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet

Explorer

> > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
> > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge

base.

> > That would be helpful.
> >

>
> The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> [url]http://support.microsoft.com/[/url]
> Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
> topics-
> enter
> "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
> and Using ... The exact phrase entered
>
> Produces one result
> [url]http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589[/url]
>
> Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??
>
>

> > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, hang
> > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS IN
> > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d

> location"

> > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the

page,

> > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge base,
> > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that

was

> > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original

> question

> > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I
> > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to

> save

> > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it

doesn't

> > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having

broken

> > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken

it,

> > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> >

>
> Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I

found.

>

> > And then I tried to ask you that.
> >
> > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to

get

> > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at your
> > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely
> > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company.

But

> > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You

told

> > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> >

>
> The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up to
> Dell to provide you with support.
>

> > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, Dell

> did

> > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? Dell
> > doesn't know what you've done.
> >

>
> Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to

technical

> data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an OEM
> machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the only
> ones who can provide the required support.
> Dell do and can know "what we have done"
>

> > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. Other
> > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I

might've

> > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
> > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big

game

> > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal

with

> > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I

buy

> > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would

like

> > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I

> cannot

> > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> >

>
> You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems

or

> non at all.
> You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
> ship.
> See comment above about OEM support.
> If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements

(including)

> choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
>

> > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I

decided

> > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed

it.

> > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.

Meaning

> > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There was

a

> > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> >

>
> Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.
>

> > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At this
> > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
> > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you

> great

> > jolly megalith, you.
> >
> > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours

every

> > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on a
> > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> >

>
>

> > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
> > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows
> > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you don't
> > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> >
> > But...I bought it in this country.
> >
> > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
> > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.
> >

>
> Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ?

Was

> it a grey import ?
> If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
> (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where

you

> are.)
>

> > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went

> through

> > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the

> phone!

> > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to Dell
> > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> >

>
> Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
> possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to
> provide the necessary support on the product.
> They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and also
> to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
>

> > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your

"communities"

> > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full of
> > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like most

of

> > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
> > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can figure
> > out the answer to that.
> >

> Do you mean here
> [url]http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx[/url]
> or
> [url]http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx[/url]
>
> Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
>

> > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.

Ninety

> > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,

cookie-

> > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't
> > get much more modern than a newsgroup.

>
> What would you prefer?
> This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that

the

> technical community operate in.
>

> > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use

newsgroups.

> > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve

technical

> > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for a
> > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
> > software.
> >

>
> We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide
> support for their OEM supplied products.
>
> There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
> advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
>

> > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
> > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour

before.

> > Elegant.
> >

>
> Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and

then

> may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services.

The

> web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
>

> > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming
> > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to

use

> > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to

protect

> > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week,

when

> > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take

out

> > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable

> personal

> > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
> > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
> > bothering you with my little problems.
> >

>
> If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made

no

> effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
> otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
>

> > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive "is
> > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because

> I'm

> > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I

can

> > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> >

>
> ok
>

> > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
> > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar

references

> > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account

> just

> > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the

useless

> > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID

which

> > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
> > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which of
> > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us

all

> > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to

screw

> > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
> > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the

whole

> > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> >
> > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've

taken

> > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me click
> > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You really

> do

> > care!
> >

>
> Yes - we do.
>

> > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
> >
> > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> >
> > Neil Obstat

>
>
>

David Banks · David Banks

Hi

Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was intended I do
think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the Windows
product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.

All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the basics of
the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have never yet
had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both Microsoft
and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how anybody
without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing'
atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.

There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably turn
out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has been
done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib answers on how
stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the response by
Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, you
know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, since when
has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go elsewhere' to
the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a bit 'high
minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that the
public have of the organisation.

I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out the
obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message 'read my
enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'

A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and energy) but
I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.

Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is not
included on the standard XP installation!!!!

I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
Customer
Services Handbook:-

'Dear Neil

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex and
navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be frustrating
but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the answers to
your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope that
we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very frustrating
problem to you.
Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any further
queries or problems.'

David

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" <mikebran@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:u8uuMXtRDHA.2148@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> Neil,
>
> Comments inline
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>
> "Neil Obstat" <NOSPAMireallydontlikeyoubillygates@hotmail.com> wrote in
> message news:Xns93B438BFFE6CCreallydontlikebillyg@207.46.2 48.16...

> > Hello, Microsoft.
> >
> > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am
> > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > products.
> >

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" <mikebran@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:u8uuMXtRDHA.2148@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> Neil,
>
> Comments inline
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>
> "Neil Obstat" <NOSPAMireallydontlikeyoubillygates@hotmail.com> wrote in
> message news:Xns93B438BFFE6CCreallydontlikebillyg@207.46.2 48.16...

> > Hello, Microsoft.
> >
> > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am
> > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > products.
> >

>
> This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
> support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
>

> > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics

in

> > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved to
> > the selected location."

>
> Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
>
> Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to

that

> contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to
> creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
>
> Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
> content embedded.
>
> On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better
> results ([url]www.ibm.com[/url] was one test that worked better as single file)
>

> > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked

> for

> > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what the
> > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make

> sure

> > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet

Explorer

> > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
> > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge

base.

> > That would be helpful.
> >

>
> The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> [url]http://support.microsoft.com/[/url]
> Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
> topics-
> enter
> "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
> and Using ... The exact phrase entered
>
> Produces one result
> [url]http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589[/url]
>
> Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??
>
>

> > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, hang
> > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS IN
> > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d

> location"

> > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the

page,

> > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge base,
> > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that

was

> > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original

> question

> > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I
> > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to

> save

> > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it

doesn't

> > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having

broken

> > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken

it,

> > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> >

>
> Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I

found.

>

> > And then I tried to ask you that.
> >
> > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to

get

> > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at your
> > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely
> > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company.

But

> > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You

told

> > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> >

>
> The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up to
> Dell to provide you with support.
>

> > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, Dell

> did

> > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? Dell
> > doesn't know what you've done.
> >

>
> Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to

technical

> data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an OEM
> machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the only
> ones who can provide the required support.
> Dell do and can know "what we have done"
>

> > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. Other
> > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I

might've

> > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
> > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big

game

> > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal

with

> > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I

buy

> > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would

like

> > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I

> cannot

> > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> >

>
> You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems

or

> non at all.
> You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
> ship.
> See comment above about OEM support.
> If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements

(including)

> choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
>

> > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I

decided

> > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed

it.

> > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.

Meaning

> > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There was

a

> > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> >

>
> Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.
>

> > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At this
> > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
> > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you

> great

> > jolly megalith, you.
> >
> > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours

every

> > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on a
> > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> >

>
>

> > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
> > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows
> > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you don't
> > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> >
> > But...I bought it in this country.
> >
> > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
> > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.
> >

>
> Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ?

Was

> it a grey import ?
> If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
> (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where

you

> are.)
>

> > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went

> through

> > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the

> phone!

> > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to Dell
> > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> >

>
> Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
> possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to
> provide the necessary support on the product.
> They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and also
> to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
>

> > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your

"communities"

> > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full of
> > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like most

of

> > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
> > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can figure
> > out the answer to that.
> >

> Do you mean here
> [url]http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx[/url]
> or
> [url]http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx[/url]
>
> Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
>

> > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.

Ninety

> > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,

cookie-

> > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't
> > get much more modern than a newsgroup.

>
> What would you prefer?
> This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that

the

> technical community operate in.
>

> > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use

newsgroups.

> > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve

technical

> > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for a
> > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
> > software.
> >

>
> We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide
> support for their OEM supplied products.
>
> There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
> advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
>

> > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
> > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour

before.

> > Elegant.
> >

>
> Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and

then

> may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services.

The

> web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
>

> > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming
> > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to

use

> > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to

protect

> > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week,

when

> > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take

out

> > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable

> personal

> > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
> > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
> > bothering you with my little problems.
> >

>
> If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made

no

> effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
> otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
>

> > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive "is
> > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because

> I'm

> > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I

can

> > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> >

>
> ok
>

> > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
> > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar

references

> > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account

> just

> > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the

useless

> > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID

which

> > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
> > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which of
> > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us

all

> > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to

screw

> > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
> > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the

whole

> > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> >
> > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've

taken

> > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me click
> > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You really

> do

> > care!
> >

>
> Yes - we do.
>

> > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
> >
> > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> >
> > Neil Obstat

>
>
>

David Candy · David Candy

Yes. You responded how a technical person would respond. Technically correct. But a customer relationship nightmare.

[url]http://www.jjlauderbaugh.com/Articles/iratecustomers.html[/url]
[url]http://www.sunherald.com/mld/tallahassee/business/columnists/5552399.htm[/url]
(unfortunately most links want cash)

It's not about being right. Being right is BAD.
--
[url]http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm[/url]
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
[url]http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros[/url]
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" <mikebran@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:#AZ#QMuRDHA.3192@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

> Sorry David, is there a problem with my response ?
>
> I have addressed the direct issue, confirmed that the KB does provide at
> least a valid result on the search criteria he used, have requested his
> feedback where he saw a deficiency, have asked for qualification of which
> pages he has trouble with and have offered solutions or areas for him to
> additionally investigate.
> And all of this in the face of a fairly hostile rant.
>
> Did I miss something?
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
>
> Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> newsgroups
>
> "David Candy" <david@mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:un$n6AuRDHA.3796@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> You know you aren't going to be picked anytime soon as a case study on how
> to deal with irate customers sucessfully.
>
> --
> [url]http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm[/url]
> [url]http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm[/url]
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> David Candy
> [url]http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros[/url]
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" <mikebran@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:u8uuMXtRDHA.2148@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> > Neil,
> >
> > Comments inline
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mike
> > --
> > Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
> >
> > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> > rights
> >
> > Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
> > newsgroups
> >
> > "Neil Obstat" <NOSPAMireallydontlikeyoubillygates@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > message news:Xns93B438BFFE6CCreallydontlikebillyg@207.46.2 48.16...

> > > Hello, Microsoft.
> > >
> > > I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am
> > > supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
> > > products.
> > >

> >
> > This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
> > support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
> >

> > > Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics

> in

> > > certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved to
> > > the selected location."

> >
> > Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
> >
> > Are you Save As. Web page complete.
> > This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to

> that

> > contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to
> > creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.
> >
> > Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
> > content embedded.
> >
> > On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better
> > results ([url]www.ibm.com[/url] was one test that worked better as single file)
> >

> > > I have read the reason for this before, yet a
> > > search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked

> > for

> > > the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what the
> > > error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make

> > sure

> > > I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
> > > SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet

> Explorer

> > > 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
> > > Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge

> base.

> > > That would be helpful.
> > >

> >
> > The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
> > If you go to the Knowledgebase at
> > [url]http://support.microsoft.com/[/url]
> > Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
> > Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
> > topics-
> > enter
> > "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
> > and Using ... The exact phrase entered
> >
> > Produces one result
> > [url]http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589[/url]
> >
> > Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??
> >
> >

> > > Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, hang
> > > on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS IN
> > > THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d

> > location"

> > > has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the

> page,

> > > no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge base,
> > > unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that

> was

> > > released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original

> > question

> > > was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I
> > > know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to

> > save

> > > the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it

> doesn't

> > > work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having

> broken

> > > it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken

> it,

> > > you were planning on doing anything about it.
> > >

> >
> > Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I

> found.

> >

> > > And then I tried to ask you that.
> > >
> > > I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to

> get

> > > to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at your
> > > company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely
> > > impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company.

> But

> > > because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You

> told

> > > me to go to Dell. As it were.
> > >

> >
> > The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
> > It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up to
> > Dell to provide you with support.
> >

> > > Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, Dell

> > did

> > > not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? Dell
> > > doesn't know what you've done.
> > >

> >
> > Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to

> technical

> > data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an OEM
> > machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the only
> > ones who can provide the required support.
> > Dell do and can know "what we have done"
> >

> > > Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. Other
> > > people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I

> might've

> > > liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
> > > thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big

> game

> > > in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal

> with

> > > you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
> > > something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I

> buy

> > > a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would

> like

> > > Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I

> > cannot

> > > get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.
> > >

> >
> > You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems

> or

> > non at all.
> > You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
> > ship.
> > See comment above about OEM support.
> > If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements

> (including)

> > choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
> >

> > > I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I

> decided

> > > to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed

> it.

> > > It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.

> Meaning

> > > it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There was

> a

> > > rebate. It was free, after the rebate.
> > >

> >
> > Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.
> >

> > > Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At this
> > > point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
> > > responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you

> > great

> > > jolly megalith, you.
> > >
> > > I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours

> every

> > > damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on a
> > > soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.
> > >

> >
> >

> > > Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
> > > (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows
> > > XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you don't
> > > offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.
> > >
> > > But...I bought it in this country.
> > >
> > > Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
> > > Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.
> > >

> >
> > Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ?

> Was

> > it a grey import ?
> > If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
> > (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where

> you

> > are.)
> >

> > > I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went

> > through

> > > every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the

> > phone!

> > > That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to Dell
> > > for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.
> > >

> >
> > Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
> > possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to
> > provide the necessary support on the product.
> > They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and also
> > to raise bugs etc should that be needed.
> >

> > > But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your

> "communities"

> > > for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full of
> > > bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like most

> of

> > > your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
> > > question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can figure
> > > out the answer to that.
> > >

> > Do you mean here
> > [url]http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx[/url]
> > or
> > [url]http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx[/url]
> >
> > Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
> >

> > > I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.

> Ninety

> > > trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,

> cookie-

> > > filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't
> > > get much more modern than a newsgroup.

> >
> > What would you prefer?
> > This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that

> the

> > technical community operate in.
> >

> > > Of course, fewer and fewer people
> > > are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use

> newsgroups.

> > > But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve

> technical

> > > help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for a
> > > computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
> > > software.
> > >

> >
> > We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide
> > support for their OEM supplied products.
> >
> > There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
> > advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
> >

> > > Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
> > > Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour

> before.

> > > Elegant.
> > >

> >
> > Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and

> then

> > may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services.

> The

> > web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
> >

> > > And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming
> > > Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to

> use

> > > the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to

> protect

> > > essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week,

> when

> > > the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take

> out

> > > a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable

> > personal

> > > information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
> > > planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
> > > bothering you with my little problems.
> > >

> >
> > If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made

> no

> > effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
> > otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
> >

> > > (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive "is
> > > not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because

> > I'm

> > > smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I

> can

> > > make my computer's life a little easier.)
> > >

> >
> > ok
> >

> > > Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
> > > certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar

> references

> > > just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
> > > support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account

> > just

> > > so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the

> useless

> > > support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID

> which

> > > is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
> > > that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which of
> > > these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us

> all

> > > your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
> > > "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to

> screw

> > > people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
> > > really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the

> whole

> > > world. Let's hope, anyway.)
> > >
> > > But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've

> taken

> > > such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me click
> > > inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
> > > intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You really

> > do

> > > care!
> > >

> >
> > Yes - we do.
> >

> > > Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.
> > >
> > > Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?
> > >
> > > Neil Obstat

> >
> >
> >

>
>

rifleman · rifleman

In news:etZ9NSuRDHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl,
David Banks <dcbanks@btopenworld.com> typed:

> Hi
>

Snip

> Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program
> is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!

Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?

--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
[url]www.gbpcomputing.co.uk[/url]

Kadaitcha Man · Kadaitcha Man

Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:

> Sorry David, is there a problem with my response ?
>
> I have addressed the direct issue, confirmed that the KB does provide
> at least a valid result on the search criteria he used, have
> requested his feedback where he saw a deficiency, have asked for
> qualification of which pages he has trouble with and have offered
> solutions or areas for him to additionally investigate.

You also said:

> And all of this in the face of a fairly hostile rant.

Yes, yours. Oh, and let's not forget Amethyst's self-congratulatory
masturbation, eh...

"Congratulations, Michael! You deserve a medal for making it all the way to
the end of that diatribe without calling it a 'moron', 'fuckwit', 'cretin',
'idiot'"

Nice, eh. Or do you not see at all what just happened? No doubt you don't
see it, so I'll spell it out for you. Amethyst is empathising with you and
doing it using terms like 'moron', 'fuckwit', 'cretin', 'idiot' to refer to
a Microsoft customer. Nice, eh.

Let me put it to you succinctly. Amethyst is suggesting that Microsoft
customers are one or more of 'moron', 'fuckwit', 'cretin', 'idiot'. Those
sentiments were elicited from whatever the mad cow is pleased to call her
mind based upon your public post.

> Did I miss something?

Yes, you did. It's called customer satisfaction. Get this through your thick
skull, dumbfuck... it doesn't matter jack shit to the OP that it's an OEM
version and that the OEM is responsible for support. It matters to the OP
that Windows XP is a Microsoft product. Your average user is not going to
give a tinker's curse for your damned OEM rules. All he knows is that he has
Microsoft Windows XP and it does not work. Do you get that, fuckface? Hmm?
He has Microsoft Windows XP and it does not work.

The absolute very least you should have done was to completely ignore your
fucked up OEM "rules" and actually help the guy. You know? Customer
relationship? But all you really did was this...

> It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is
> up to Dell to provide you with support.

> We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs
> provide support for their OEM supplied products.

What a marvellous advertisement for Microsoft -- "You got screwed, we don't
give a fuck." And don't go saying he isn't a Microsoft customer, because he
is, whether you like to admit it or not.

I'll tell you something else, you fucktard. Companies generally spend 10-12
times more money on attracting new customers than they do on keeping
existing ones. A happy customer will make a good recommendation to seven or
eight others. A customer who has been pissed off by a snot-nosed prat, like
you for example, will go off and tell, on avarage, 10-12 people of his bad
experience. The hilarious part of all this is, you fucked up big time in
front of thousands in a public forum. Well done. If I were your boss, you'd
be frog-marched off to a retraining camp, but I'm not, so it's your lucky
day.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - [url]http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/[/url]
Anarchy is having to put up with things that piss you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

David Candy · David Candy

No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The sell genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk.

But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with new systems.

--
[url]http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm[/url]
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
[url]http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros[/url]
---------------------------------------------------------------
"rifleman" <me@nospamever.net> wrote in message news:eYogJYuRDHA.1556@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

> In news:etZ9NSuRDHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl,
> David Banks <dcbanks@btopenworld.com> typed:

> > Hi
> >

> Snip

> > Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program
> > is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!

>
> Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?
>
>
> --
> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
> Google is your Friend
> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
> [url]www.gbpcomputing.co.uk[/url]
>
>
>

Ted · Ted

"David Banks" <dcbanks@btopenworld.com> wrote in message news:etZ9NSuRDHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

<snipped>

> There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably turn
> out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has been
> done in this case

Gently on maybe one account, but not on the MS/MVP supporters like the bint "Amethyst", who has no problem railing the meekest of help seekers to becoming "mindless PC fuckcases"! At least Mike just tells them they are basically stuck in a "fuckcase"!

<snipped long remainder>

Kadaitcha Man · Kadaitcha Man

Ted" <"""""""""""""" wrote:

> Gently on maybe one account, but not on the MS/MVP supporters like
> the bint "Amethyst", who has no problem railing the meekest of help
> seekers to becoming "mindless PC fuckcases"! At least Mike just tells
> them they are basically stuck in a "fuckcase"!

Don't forget that the imaginary personality Amethyst projects into these
groups is the only one she has.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - [url]http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/[/url]
Anarchy is having to put up with things that piss you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute

rifleman · rifleman

In news:OMrtvhuRDHA.2148@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
David Candy <david@mvps.org> typed:

> No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing
> amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The sell
> genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except
> the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A
> large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk.
>
> But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with
> new systems.
>

>> In news:etZ9NSuRDHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl,
>> David Banks <dcbanks@btopenworld.com> typed:

>>> Hi
>>>

>> Snip

>>> Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program
>>> is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!

>>
>> Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?
>>
>>
>> --
>> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
>> Google is your Friend
>> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
>> [url]www.gbpcomputing.co.uk[/url]

Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by default (or
should be....)

--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
[url]www.gbpcomputing.co.uk[/url]

Will Denny · Will Denny

"rifleman" <me@nospamever.net> wrote in message news:O6dJUquRDHA.1720@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> In news:OMrtvhuRDHA.2148@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
> David Candy <david@mvps.org> typed:

> > No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing
> > amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The sell
> > genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except
> > the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A
> > large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk.
> >
> > But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with
> > new systems.
> >

> >> In news:etZ9NSuRDHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl,
> >> David Banks <dcbanks@btopenworld.com> typed:
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >> Snip
> >>> Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program
> >>> is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!
> >>
> >> Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
> >> Google is your Friend
> >> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
> >> [url]www.gbpcomputing.co.uk[/url]

>
> Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by default (or
> should be....)
>
> --
> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
> Google is your Friend
> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
> [url]www.gbpcomputing.co.uk[/url]

You don't seem to have the idea of what an OEM XP CD is. That particular OEM XP CD 'could' include all XP apps that are available on the 'upgrade' or full retail version. OTOH - that particular OEM XP CD 'could' include nothing but the 'install' files. OEMs are allowed to include/exclude anything they like - unfortunately.

Will

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003

rifleman · rifleman

In news:%23BvX3uuRDHA.560@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl,
Will Denny <wjd4444uk@yahoo.co.uk> typed:

> "rifleman" <me@nospamever.net> wrote in message
> news:O6dJUquRDHA.1720@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

>> In news:OMrtvhuRDHA.2148@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
>> David Candy <david@mvps.org> typed:

>>> No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing
>>> amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The
>>> sell
>>> genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except
>>> the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A
>>> large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk.
>>>
>>> But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with
>>> new systems.
>>>
>>>> In news:etZ9NSuRDHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl,
>>>> David Banks <dcbanks@btopenworld.com> typed:
>>>>> Hi
>>>>>
>>>> Snip
>>>>> Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup
>>>>> program
>>>>> is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!
>>>>
>>>> Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
>>>> Google is your Friend
>>>> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
>>>> [url]www.gbpcomputing.co.uk[/url]

>>
>> Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by
>> default (or
>> should be....)
>>
>> --
>> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
>> Google is your Friend
>> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
>> [url]www.gbpcomputing.co.uk[/url]

>
> You don't seem to have the idea of what an OEM XP CD is. That
> particular OEM XP CD 'could' include all XP apps that are available
> on the 'upgrade' or full retail version. OTOH - that particular OEM
> XP CD 'could' include nothing but the 'install' files. OEMs are
> allowed to include/exclude anything they like - unfortunately.
>
> Will
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
> Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003

I'd be very surprised if vendor would dig around deep enough to remove the
backup utility - unless they also sell backup solutions ;-)

--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
[url]www.gbpcomputing.co.uk[/url]

Mister Charlie · Mister Charlie

"David Banks" <dcbanks@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:etZ9NSuRDHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

>
> I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
> Customer
> Services Handbook:-
>
> 'Dear Neil
>
> I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
> information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex

and

> navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be

frustrating

> but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the

answers to

> your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
> Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope

that

> we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very

frustrating

> problem to you.
> Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any

further

> queries or problems.'
>
> David
>

Let me assure you that that sort of prepackaged PR drivel is JUST as
frustrating as the runaround the OP describes.

Mike gave a direct answer to both the OP's hostility (understandable
given MS's and OEM's lack of any real help) and to his problems. Seems
like a perfectly good post to me.

Mister Charlie · Mister Charlie

"rifleman" <me@nospamever.net> wrote in message
news:eYogJYuRDHA.1556@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

> In news:etZ9NSuRDHA.3236@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl,
> David Banks <dcbanks@btopenworld.com> typed:

> > Hi
> >

> Snip

> > Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program
> > is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!

>
> Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?

Not necessarily. However, on my e-machine OEM XP install there IS no
backup function, it's not included!

>
>
> --
> (I may be wrong...I usually am....)
> Google is your Friend
> Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
> [url]www.gbpcomputing.co.uk[/url]
>
>
>

An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

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