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Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news. - PERL Beginners

I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better. Since starting to learn Perl though, every other language I started to learn/t, C, PHP etc. seem to make more sense now, as Perl has cleared things up. When I look at Perl, I can understand it (it kind of looks like bash), when I look at a Python script, ugh. I have been also trying to do some gui work with perl using wxperl, Python seems to be much better suited/supported (for ...

  1. #1

    Default Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.

    I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
    shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.

    Since starting to learn Perl though, every other language I started to
    learn/t, C, PHP etc. seem to make more sense now, as Perl has cleared
    things up.

    When I look at Perl, I can understand it (it kind of looks like bash),
    when I look at a Python script, ugh.

    I have been also trying to do some gui work with perl using wxperl, Python
    seems to be much better suited/supported (for wx) and I couldn't find very
    many docs for wxperl. What else is good looking to use?

    I love CPAN.

    Basically, my morale is getting low and I need a boost from you guys. Perl
    isn't old is it?

    I am on the right path?

    Be kind ;-)

    Thanks all,

    Gavin.

    --
    Just getting into the best language ever...
    Fancy a me.uk? Just ask!!!
    Gavin Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.



    Gavin Henry wrote: 

    Me too :)
     

    Python is different not necessarily better.
     

    Because Perl rocks!
     

    have a look at tk at cpan
     

    Another plus over many other languages. Perl has many advantages over
    other languages.
    1) Its readily available in most systems as its alreayd installed.
    2) Its capable of any task any other language is
    3) It can be run persistantly or as part of apache as needed but is not
    necessary.
    4) If it is part of apache and you expand its functionality by adding a
    module you don't break apache half the time like another bloated
    language who name I won't say (its initials are PHP ;p)
    5)
     

    It is mature, that is one thing that makes it great, less "oh crap
    upgrade to 4.3.8 or you're server is vulnerable" like the other
    unmentionable language I hinted at earlier.
     

    Yes you are padawan. One thing that makes other languages appeal to
    people is;t anythgin to do with the language itself. Rather its the
    developers and there wise use of nice design. For example, phpbb is an
    excellent forum. There are tons of other forums that have the same
    functionality but it just looks slick so people just use it.
    Of course the point being is that its html and css that make people
    choose it, not PHP.

    With perl, we seem to tend toward, "here';s how you do that" and not put
    much into the presentation (IE html/css, etc) and therefore it *looks*
    clunkier on the outside.

    So lets all keep using Perl and make it look nice so it sells!!!
     

    use The::Force;
     

    No woriies :)

    Lee.M - JupiterHost.Net
     
    JupiterHost.Net Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.

    JupiterHost.Net said: 
    >
    > Me too :)

    >
    > Python is different not necessarily better.

    >
    > Because Perl rocks![/ref]

    :-)
     
    >
    > have a look at tk at cpan[/ref]

    It's not very pretty though.
     
    >
    > Another plus over many other languages. Perl has many advantages over
    > other languages.
    > 1) Its readily available in most systems as its alreayd installed.
    > 2) Its capable of any task any other language is
    > 3) It can be run persistantly or as part of apache as needed but is not
    > necessary.
    > 4) If it is part of apache and you expand its functionality by adding a
    > module you don't break apache half the time like another bloated
    > language who name I won't say (its initials are PHP ;p)
    > 5)

    >
    > It is mature, that is one thing that makes it great, less "oh crap
    > upgrade to 4.3.8 or you're server is vulnerable" like the other
    > unmentionable language I hinted at earlier.

    >
    > Yes you are padawan. One thing that makes other languages appeal to
    > people is;t anythgin to do with the language itself. Rather its the
    > developers and there wise use of nice design. For example, phpbb is an
    > excellent forum. There are tons of other forums that have the same
    > functionality but it just looks slick so people just use it.
    > Of course the point being is that its html and css that make people
    > choose it, not PHP.
    >
    > With perl, we seem to tend toward, "here';s how you do that" and not put
    > much into the presentation (IE html/css, etc) and therefore it *looks*
    > clunkier on the outside.
    >
    > So lets all keep using Perl and make it look nice so it sells!!!

    >
    > use The::Force;[/ref]

    Ha, thanks mate.
     
    >
    > No woriies :)
    >
    > Lee.M - JupiterHost.Net

    >
    > --
    > To unsubscribe, e-mail: org
    > For additional commands, e-mail: org
    > <http://learn.perl.org/> <http://learn.perl.org/first-response>
    >
    >
    >[/ref]

    Gavin Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.

    Paul Kraus said: 
    > Lets pretend we are mechanics we have this one tool that was passed on
    > down from generation to generation. It is our very very very favorite
    > tool.
    > No matter what we do its simply not possible to do our jobs with that one
    > tool.
    >
    > A good programmer in my opinion does not play favorites. Best tool for
    > the job and all that :)[/ref]

    Agreed. But you need to start your base knowledge with a good one, like
    Perl :-)
     
    > It's your first real language.From here on out everything is easier to
    > learn. It all becomes a matter of learning the syntax :) Congrats :)[/ref]

    I am beginning to learn that.
     
    > Depends on what your trying to do GASP even vb.net has some uses :) 
    > CPAN IS THE BOMB. hands down its why Perl is my primary tool set.[/ref]

    Nothing easier than:

    perl -MCPAN -e shell
     
    > Depends on if you limit yourself to Perl since it was your first
    > language. If not then you are on the right path.[/ref]

    Agreed. Thanks.
     

    Gavin Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.

    Gavin Henry wrote: 

    My Good Lord, where have you been? Python is _already_ old news. Ruby,
    baby! :-)
     

    The right path is probably to learn them all, and pick whichever
    satisfies you the most. Or use the right tool for the right job.

    I know not everybody have the time to learn new programming languages
    every few months. But frankly I think that's the best advice I can give
    you. Learning new programming languages will make you a better
    programmer, and it will asnwer your own question on whether you should
    continue using language X, use both X and Y, or move on to Y completely.

    Here's my own experience, hopefully it can help you. I know Perl since
    1997. It has taught me _a lot_ (about programming, about the hacking
    culture, about other languages). Then I started to be interested in
    Python around 2000. Despite 1-2 years trying to familiarize and use
    Python, it never really got to me. I guess I never enjoy programming in
    that language. Nowadays I very rarely use Python at all. I install
    Python mostly just to run BitTorrent.

    Then I started to be interested in Ruby in 2001. This I like. But
    despite promising myself to replace Perl with Ruby, today I still
    program like 50% : 50% in Ruby : Perl. There are just some things that I
    can write much faster and more convenient using Perl. Especially when
    writing one liners or when I can just use one or two CPAN modules and
    get the job done.

    And then there's PHP. I use (or have to use it) since 1999. Despite
    swearing several times never to use PHP again, and cursing every time I
    have to code many lines in it, today I am still stuck with PHP at times.

    I found that, once you learn enough Perl, you just can't let it go
    completely. Perl and CPAN are too damn useful :-)

    --
    dave

    David Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.

    David Garamond said: 
    >
    > My Good Lord, where have you been? Python is _already_ old news. Ruby,
    > baby! :-)

    >
    > The right path is probably to learn them all, and pick whichever
    > satisfies you the most. Or use the right tool for the right job.[/ref]

    That famous advice. I will have enough tools under my belt soon to make
    that decision.
     

    Agreed.
     

    Likewise, except Fedora needs it for a lot of things (I'm
    http://FedoraNEWS.ORG/ghenry)
     

    CPAN is the best.
     

    This is another common reason I have read...people always come back to Perl.

    Gavin.
     

    Gavin Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.

    On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 13:20, Gavin Henry wrote: 
    THese days Python is gaining support in the field. But I do think it is
    mainly hype.....

    I do think it is not the question of programming language. Python has
    its merits, some good points which are not implemented in Perl. BUT!!!!
    Do not be confused you do your code, so you can be smarter than Python.

    Gabaux

    PS: I do programming in both languages for living.

    Gabor Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Yin and Yang of Programming- Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

    I am a martial artist for 14 years now. I have had
    people ask "what is the best art to practice"? I tell
    them look at yourself and see where you fit, how
    physically fit are you, etc. Are you going to practice
    daily, and live the "Martial Way" like Shaolin? Do you
    have patience and lots of time to practice Tai Chi?
    Are you an agressive muscle head who loves the gym and
    a good bar fight, and would like Muy Thai or
    Brazillian Jiu Jitsu? The answer is all are good if
    your committed to the tasks!! Become excellent at one
    or two so you don't be mediocre like many!! People who
    practice Martial Arts for example still get their A**
    whipped by drunk folks in a bar! Why? Because they
    train enough to get an ego, but not enought to become
    a true expert! Take your Technical Skill the same as I
    did my art and you won't have to worry about no
    stinkin' PYTHON nor a guy with arm like a PYTHON!!

    Ving Tsun for LIFE!!



    --- Gavin Henry <me.uk> wrote:
     

    Jason Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.

    Gavin Henry wrote: 

    Fortran, Cobol, Lisp, C and Basic are older and people still use them.

    There are always people who will say that X is better then Y (and people who
    will say that Y is better then X) and maybe for them it is. It could be that
    they don't fully understand X and Y (and A, B, C and D) and are making a
    judgment on limited knowledge. It could be that their particular
    cirstances are more conducive to using Y instead of X.

    As a professional programmer you should learn many languages and use the best
    one for the cirstances at hand. :-) IMHO


    John
    --
    use Perl;
    program
    fulfillment
    John Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

    You know, I'm kinda going through a similar thing. I wrote a script to search for users in an LDAP directory and update an attribute at the same time. I decided to write it in Perl because it looked so easy. And, it was. Works like a champ. Being new to Perl, and this was my first script, I was amazed at the power in a short amount of code. I've written in C, C++, Java, Lisp, Ada, Modula-2, Prolog, Pascal, and none of these are as easy as Perl (although Java is nice).

    However, my co-worker, who is familiar with JSP, began writing an HTML form to collect input data to pass to the script. We found that JSP and Perl didn't mix very well. In fact, we are still having trouble getting the two to integrate (probably ignorance hold us back).

    What's the point? The point is that sometimes a language choice defines an architectural choice. For example, Java implies that you need a JVM to run on the host OS (or browser). If Windows were my primary OS and I was writing a commerical application, I might think twice about Java. If the application must be cross-OS compatible, then Java is a good choice.

    For my script, I wish my co-worker and I had done our research ahead of time. We just didn't know...in fact, we still don't. But, we can't make an informed decision without the facts.

    Probably didn't help you much but, take heart in this. CGI isn't going anywhere soon. Millions of web pages use CGI and every web server supports it right out of the box. Perl is so easy to code and CPAN offers a world of scripts. I have seen Perl script writers whip out code in minutes that takes others days. It may not be commercial grade but, who of us writes commerical applications all the time. 90% of the time, I'm trying to accomplish a simple task or test a theory. You can't beat Perl for that.

    Gavin Henry <me.uk> wrote:
    I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
    shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.

    Since starting to learn Perl though, every other language I started to
    learn/t, C, PHP etc. seem to make more sense now, as Perl has cleared
    things up.

    When I look at Perl, I can understand it (it kind of looks like bash),
    when I look at a Python script, ugh.

    I have been also trying to do some gui work with perl using wxperl, Python
    seems to be much better suited/supported (for wx) and I couldn't find very
    many docs for wxperl. What else is good looking to use?

    I love CPAN.

    Basically, my morale is getting low and I need a boost from you guys. Perl
    isn't old is it?

    I am on the right path?

    Be kind ;-)

    Thanks all,

    Gavin.

    --
    Just getting into the best language ever...
    Fancy a me.uk? Just ask!!!

    --
    To unsubscribe, e-mail: org
    For additional commands, e-mail: org




    Drue Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

    On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:20:50 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote:
     

    Are you old enough to remember when Java came out? The hype reached
    heights not seen outside of a political convention. All other languages
    were obsolete, schools would be dropping classes in all other languages in
    favor of Java, you needed to get up to speed in Java immediately or find
    another career, Java would eventually bring peace to the Middle East and
    cause gasoline prices to fall so low that it wouldn't be worth metering.
    I even saw an article that claimed that MS would be writing the new
    Windows in Java!!!

    The reality - just another language that some people use, some people
    like, some people hate.

    I like Perl and use it for almost everything now. I can crank out a
    usable program by myself in a short time while the C++ guys are still
    tracing and trapping to find that last memory leak in a program that is
    already six months late.

    You want to try easy graphics? Try the canvas in Perl/TK. I was playing
    with it (actually learning it and trying to figure out just what it would
    do) and built the gui interface for a Civilization clone game in an
    unbelievably short time and in just a few pages of code. If I had tried
    that in Delphi (which is the only thing that I regret leaving behind when
    I left Windows), the source line count would have been astronomical.

    Go with what works and forget the editorials.

    Hagar

    Hagar Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

    On Wednesday 29 Sep 2004 03:19, you wrote: 

    Agreed. Thanks for this. My morale is up, but it's looking like I might be
    getting paid to learn Python, which is a bonus, but my heart is with Perl.

    The more the better I now say!!!
     

    --
    Just getting into the best language ever...
    Fancy a me.uk? Just ask!!!
    Gavin Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

    >>>>> "Gavin" == Gavin Henry <me.uk> writes:

    Gavin> I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk
    Gavin> to say I shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is
    Gavin> better.

    Perl is more powerful. Python is simpler. Python is for people
    who don't want to master a language -- just use it casually.

    However, if you're gonna spend two or more hours a day hacking code,
    Perl is definitely the right place to be. Still.

    Those Python weenies are all just casual programmers complaining
    that for Perl, "with great power comes great responsibility". Let'em.

    Perl's support only grows. I used to be able to follow the CPAN "new
    modules list" by examining the daily run at search.cpan.org/recent.
    But no more. Look at all the new modules just in the past *seven*
    days. (It's typically a full web page for each day!) If that doesn't
    show you an intense activity in the Perl community, I really don't
    know what else I could show you.

    Ask your Python friends where such a similar list exists. :)

    Python may be newer, but Perl is more mature, and here to stay.

    Remember "new coke", and how long we had that. (If you're old enough
    to remember that fiasco.)

    --
    Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
    <com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
    Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
    See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
    Randal Guest

  14. Moderated Post

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.

    Removed by Administrator
    Gavin Guest
    Moderated Post

  15. #15

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.

    Gavin Henry wrote: 
    >
    > Again, thanks for this. My morale is now completely topped up, so I am
    > going to shell out for Programming Perl, although I do have the CD
    > Bookshelf 3.0 (better than 4.0)[/ref]

    You might hurt his feelings, he didn't contribute to the third edition of
    Programming Perl. Better to buy his latest book _Learning Perl Objects,
    References & Modules_ ;-)


    John
    --
    use Perl;
    program
    fulfillment
    John Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.

    John W. Krahn said: 
    >>
    >> Again, thanks for this. My morale is now completely topped up, so I am
    >> going to shell out for Programming Perl, although I do have the CD
    >> Bookshelf 3.0 (better than 4.0)[/ref]
    >
    > You might hurt his feelings, he didn't contribute to the third edition of
    > Programming Perl. Better to buy his latest book _Learning Perl Objects,
    > References & Modules_ ;-)[/ref]

    Quick, where's my Mastercard...
     

    Gavin Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.

    My what long lines you have :)
     

    I do mostly, private corporate backends mostly among other things :)
    I use it for the quick tasks and simple scripts also of course. (the
    projects never end the same as durability and ability)

    And cPanel (http://cpanel.net) is mostly perl for instance.
    I'd say that's pretty commercial seeing as how many webhosts use it.

    An associate of mine worked for/does consulting for a nationwide
    communications provider that uses all perl for the website, and backend
    employee/customer/support/work order/materials handling/etc etc.

    Apple's website uses perl last I heard (the .adp extension is their
    special build of it)

    That's just 4 that I knew off off the top of my head.

    Perhaps you meant commercial grade as in you don't have to spend
    thousands of dollars on a devleopment suite (hint hint Microsoft) and
    hire a team of engineers to keep it running (hint hint PHP), in that
    case I'd agree ;p

    One thing my associate says that I agree with that may help with the
    language blues is be proud of perl! When you do web apps in perl, use
    ..pl instead of .cgi. Show some pride man!! If you're host can't add one
    line to apache conf to be able to serve .pl files then get a new host.

    [shameless plug] go to jupiterhost.net we *love* Perl [/shameless plug]

    I like this thread, lots of opinions + not too many flames = productive
    learning

    Just my .02

    Lee.M - JupiterHost.Net


    JupiterHost.Net Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.

    JupiterHost.Net said: 
    >
    > I do mostly, private corporate backends mostly among other things :)
    > I use it for the quick tasks and simple scripts also of course. (the
    > projects never end the same as durability and ability)
    >
    > And cPanel (http://cpanel.net) is mostly perl for instance.
    > I'd say that's pretty commercial seeing as how many webhosts use it.
    >
    > An associate of mine worked for/does consulting for a nationwide
    > communications provider that uses all perl for the website, and backend
    > employee/customer/support/work order/materials handling/etc etc.
    >
    > Apple's website uses perl last I heard (the .adp extension is their
    > special build of it)
    >
    > That's just 4 that I knew off off the top of my head.
    >
    > Perhaps you meant commercial grade as in you don't have to spend
    > thousands of dollars on a devleopment suite (hint hint Microsoft) and
    > hire a team of engineers to keep it running (hint hint PHP), in that
    > case I'd agree ;p
    >
    > One thing my associate says that I agree with that may help with the
    > language blues is be proud of perl! When you do web apps in perl, use
    > .pl instead of .cgi. Show some pride man!! If you're host can't add one
    > line to apache conf to be able to serve .pl files then get a new host.[/ref]

    I agree.
     

    Again, I agree.


    More examples please!!!!
     

    Gavin Guest

  19. #19

    Default RE: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and saysPerl is old news.


     [/ref]
    > applications all the time.  
    > things :) I  
    > and backend  
    >
    >http://perl.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/perl/news/success_stories.html
    >http://poe.perl.org/?Organizations_Using_POE
    >
    >Those are just a few more...[/ref]

    Indeed !
    http://masonhq.com/?MasonPoweredSites

    Plus more ...



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  20. #20

    Default Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

    >>>>> "John" == John W Krahn <net> writes:

    John> You might hurt his feelings, he didn't contribute to the third edition
    John> of Programming Perl.

    Actually, it's worse than that. I contributed to it, but wasn't credited
    for it or paid for it.

    John> Better to buy his latest book _Learning Perl
    John> Objects, References & Modules_ ;-)

    Yes, or Learning Perl. Both good books, from what I hear. I dunno,
    I write'em, not read 'em. :)

    --
    Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
    <com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
    Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
    See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
    Randal Guest

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