best on-demand/short run printing option?

[Philip_Fass@adobeforums.com]

Designed a 24-pg training manual, 4-color, and client is trying to decide how to use small printing budget. Ideally, they'd like about 400 copies, but could only afford color laser and saddle stitch for that many. My concern is that if the manual looks cheap, it's not going to work for their audience.

If I can convince them to get fewer printed, maybe 100 of them, what will provide the highest quality?

Also, is on-demand printing by definition laser-based printing. Does it look much better than a good-quality office color laser?

Thanks!

[Bob Levine]

I've seen some pretty impressive Docutech printing. But at some point,
offest becomes cheaper.

Bob

[Richard_Sohanchyk@adobeforums.com]

But at some point,offest becomes cheaper.




And 400 ain't it. I've done many books on my imagerunner and some on a digital press. Need to find balance between budget and quality. Depending on coverage, you can do a lot of good work on today's digital copiers as Bob noted.

[AlFerrari]

I have received some very impressive Docucolor work which for image quality competes with offset.

The down side for me is that the intense heat from the tonner fusion process distorts the stock so that accurate back ups are not possible. Also, the sheet to sheet register is only fair, but not excellent for back ups. Especially side to side. I am not sure if this is because the machine has only one side guide, or because the operators do not switch side guides.

So there are issues with image position, but the color is excellent. And the price at 400 in my area is lower than with DI presses.

Al Ferrari

[Richard_Sohanchyk@adobeforums.com]

Back to Back reg is definitely a problem with copiers. For critical work, I run one side, flip the load and print again. Yields better line up of crop marks than printing duplex. Also, in a pinch, I've learned to nudge the entire back page over 1/8" or so to get better line up on none critical stuff.

[AlFerrari]

I've learned to nudge the entire back page over 1/8" or so to get better
line up on none critical stuff.




That's a riot! The Docucolor 700/800 handles stock 12.5 inch wide. An engineering student might do a quick calculation of 0.125/12.5 and claim that the error is only 1%. But in commercial offset, backups are routinely kept within .01 inch on stock 25 inches across. That's an error of .04%.

The general mechanism for maintaining sheets in register as they move through a press were well developed by the 1960's. If companies like Xerox do not implement them in their on demand equipment it can only be because they perceive that the market will accept this print position inaccuracy as a trade off for image quality. So that's were they put the emphasis.

Al Ferrari

[Richard_Sohanchyk@adobeforums.com]

I have a copier, not a digital or offset press. An imagerunner 3220. I probably shouldn't have said registration. Each side prints perfectly but if you hold the sheet up to the light, the registration marks on the back side don't line up with the front if I print duplex. Usually off 1/16 - 1/8". However, if I print the side one only, flip the pile and rerun the back it's very close. Not dead on by any means but commercially acceptable for copy work.

[AlFerrari]

Richard,

Registration was the right term. But we must distinguish between color to color register and color to sheet register. Thus equipment that lays down two or more colors in one pass can have the colors very closely aligned to each other on every sheet, while varying much more so in placement from sheet to sheet. This is because after initial positioning, the sheet is kept under good control while receiving the various colors,while the initial positioning mechanism, is often less well implemented on these machines.

Front to back variation from sheet to sheet is an instance of the second (sheet misregister).

My guess is that your equipment tumbles the sheet after imaging one side and then images the second side with the same imaging heads now caring the back up image. The paper tumbling mechanism is probably at fault in positioning the sheet for the imaging of the second side. That would account for the better control you observe when you feed it twice, because the tumbling mechanism is not involved.

The Docucolor work I complained about in my earlier message was probably tumbled also, although I don't know that for sure. The sheet register for the first side (the outside of an invitation that folded on the boundary between the front page image and the back page image) was surprisingly good.

These machines show impressive technical accomplishments. I would like to see a market demand for better sheet handling engineering in the future now that image quality has developed as much as it has.

Al Ferrari

[Philip_Fass@adobeforums.com]

This is very helpful.

Of all the kinds of variables mentioned -- color accuracy, front to back reg, etc. -- the one I'm most concerned about is left/right reg. That is, I have a solid color bar with thin rules running across the spread. It doesn't bleed, as there are half-inch outer margins, but if there's variation across a left and right page, it's going to be misaligned and look baaaad.

I wonder if the best option is a tabloid digital copier...No! That's not going to help because I'll have to set up printer's spreads. I just don't know...any thoughts? Offset the only good option for this?

[AlFerrari]

Offset the only good option for this?




Philip,

Maybe not. If the margins at risk are only on one side, there may not be cause to worry.

How many possible vendors do you have to chose from for Docucolor? Can you discuss the issue with them? Mention that you do a good amount of this sort of work. Ask about single pass duplexing versus 2 pass (expect to pay more for this).

This will take some of your time. Is that worth it?

Al Ferrari

[Peter_Truskier@adobeforums.com]

I don't know this for sure, but am guessing that Xerox' latest and biggest machine, the iGen 3, may have better sheet control, and thus better sheet-to-sheet and side-to-side register than the various DocuColor machines.

[AlFerrari]

Peter,

I just checked their web page, and it does sound like they have put some effort into the stock handling in general and the duplexing in particular. It does use a tumbling method which I don't doubt is improved, but the marketing folks don't use the best approach in promoting it. On this point their web page says:

Accurate Registration





* Dual-edge perfecting assures unprecedented front-to-back and crossover

>registration

If I were writing the ad copy and could not claim single edge handling throughout, I would not make that simple statement. Now, that is the approach taken in perfecting on modern presses, but a lot of engineering goes into making that second edge handling of the sheet very closely related to the original first edge used in the in feed. The statement above, by itself, would tend to make me doubtful about the mechanism.

That said, I am sure they know a thing or two more about marketing than me.

Al

[Philip_Fass@adobeforums.com]

There's a problem with discussing the latest-and-greatest of any technology. It just doesn't come here (Vermont) for a long time. I'd have to decide whether to do an online order with an out-of-state company, or ride herd on a local that doesn't have the best stuff.

I guess I should just bring a sample to various printers, tell them my concerns, and see how reasonable their responses are.

[DavidT]

Most digital print vendors would be happy to do a test copy for you anyway, providing they don't have to do much work!

If front-to-back registration is an issue for you, they would have nothing to gain by not being honest about it.

Our DocuColor isn't great at front to back registration but we can get round some of it with a few adjustments. We have a Canon too which is far better at duplexing, cheaper too but the vibrancy of pictures is not as great as that of the Xerox, because it's a waxy toner as opposed to a plasticky one.

Horses for courses. Take a readers' spreads pdf on a cd to various places and discuss.

[Richard_Sohanchyk@adobeforums.com]

Philip: This is the internet age, my man. Go online. There has to be a digital printer within one day UPS range. Doesn't need to be down the street. UPS usually delivers within 100 mile radius next day at ground rates.

[terrapindesign@carolina.rr.com]

New Hampshire has 3 iGen's. Vermont, none. Find out more at this link:

<http://www.xerox.com/go/xrx/template/009.jsp?view=Feature&ed_name=Premier_partners&metr ics=WTB_021904_partners&Xcntry=USA&Xlang=en_US>

IMHO, the iGen is the best digital output device available.

[Richard_Sohanchyk@adobeforums.com]

the iGen is the best digital output device available




Then the local vendor must not know how to use his machine. After printing 3 test prints (and getting charged for them @ $25 per pop) that didn't hold a candle to NexPress output from a vendor much farther away, I gave up on iGen. I won't even let a company bid once I find they have an iGen.

[terrapindesign@carolina.rr.com]

To each his own. I couldn't find a directory of vendors for NexPress. Guess you just have to call around.

[Richard_Sohanchyk@adobeforums.com]

Doesn't mean that iGen isn't a good machine. Almost all the local digital vendors within 50 miles are running iGen. NexPress are few and far between.

[Richard_Sohanchyk@adobeforums.com]

I think the iGen vendor I used hadn't gotten up to speed yet with calibration.