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/boot like linux! - FreeBSD

Jesse Guardiani wrote:   I'm not sure I understand the problem. If you don't want to create more partitions, then don't. You can make an 80gb (or 300gb, or whatever) drive into two partitions - a swap partition (2gig) and a / partition (78 gig) and install FreeBSD just fine. It's *best* to make more partitions (esp for /var) so that if something goes out of control logging, or you just neglect your logs, it doesn't go and fill up your only (ie / ) partition. Like most *nix OS's, it can be as simple or as complicated as you ...

  1. #1

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    Jesse Guardiani wrote:
     
    I'm not sure I understand the problem. If you don't want to create more
    partitions, then don't. You can make an 80gb (or 300gb, or whatever)
    drive into two partitions - a swap partition (2gig) and a / partition
    (78 gig) and install FreeBSD just fine. It's *best* to make more
    partitions (esp for /var) so that if something goes out of control
    logging, or you just neglect your logs, it doesn't go and fill up your
    only (ie / ) partition. Like most *nix OS's, it can be as simple or as
    complicated as you want it to be.
    Laurence Guest

  2. #2

    Default /boot like linux!

    Hello,

    I'm a FreeBSD 5.3 user as well as a Gentoo Linux user.
    In Gentoo linux, you only have to create 3 partitions:

    /boot
    swap
    /

    In FreeBSD, you seem to have to create many more:

    /
    swap
    /usr
    /var
    /tmp

    In particular, it seems that /boot MUST be on the same
    partition as /. This stinks, as now you have to create
    separate partitions for /usr and /var, which wastes space.

    I tried to make /boot it's own partition, and I succeeded,
    to a certain extent. I actually made /boot/boot, because
    the FreeBSD 5.3 boot manager wants to look under the /boot
    directory for "loader". If /boot is it's own partition, then
    you need a /boot/boot/loader.

    Anyway, that worked. The kernel boots now, but it prompts
    me at the beginning of the rc process for the root device.
    I give it:

    ufs:ad1s1d

    Which is my / partition, and it boots successfully.
    Is it possible to automate this process so that the loader
    knows to use ad1s1d as my root device?

    Thanks!

    --
    Jesse Guardiani, Systems Administrator
    WingNET Internet Services,
    P.O. Box 2605 // Cleveland, TN 37320-2605
    423-559-LINK (v) 423-559-5145 (f)
    http://www.wingnet.net


    Jesse Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    Jesse Guardiani wrote:

    <snip snip>
     

    Please note that I'm a "fellow newb", and don't take this
    as if it were from an authoritative source (other than whoever
    I'm quoting...)

    from boot(8):

    "Make note of the fact that /boot.config is read only from the `a' parti-
    tion. As a result, slices which are missing an `a' parition
    require user
    intervention during the boot process."

    Kevin Kinsey

    P.S. It might be better to go back and set things up
    correctly. As someone just said, you can do it with
    just / and swap, if you don't feel the need to have
    seperate partitions for /var, /usr, /tmp, whatever.
    Kevin Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    On Thursday 03 March 2005 5:41 pm, you wrote: 
    > I'm not sure I understand the problem. If you don't want to create more
    > partitions, then don't. You can make an 80gb (or 300gb, or whatever)
    > drive into two partitions - a swap partition (2gig) and a / partition
    > (78 gig) and install FreeBSD just fine.[/ref]

    Doesn't the boot partition have to NOT have soft updates though?
    I created the setup you described about a year ago with 5.2.1, and
    I had serious problems if the system ever hard rebooted after a
    power failure. Single user manual fsck's and all that.

     

    I want / + /boot. It's that simple.

    --
    Jesse Guardiani, Systems Administrator
    WingNET Internet Services,
    P.O. Box 2605 // Cleveland, TN 37320-2605
    423-559-LINK (v) 423-559-5145 (f)
    http://www.wingnet.net

    Jesse Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    Kevin Kinsey wrote:
     
    >
    > Please note that I'm a "fellow newb", and don't take this
    > as if it were from an authoritative source (other than whoever
    > I'm quoting...)
    >
    > from boot(8):
    >
    > "Make note of the fact that /boot.config is read only from the `a'
    > parti-
    > tion. As a result, slices which are missing an `a' parition
    > require user
    > intervention during the boot process."[/ref]

    I am under the impression that boot.config is optional. It doesn't
    exist on either of my 5.3 systems.


    --
    Jesse Guardiani, Systems Administrator
    WingNET Internet Services,
    P.O. Box 2605 // Cleveland, TN 37320-2605
    423-559-LINK (v) 423-559-5145 (f)
    http://www.wingnet.net


    Jesse Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    Jesse Guardiani wrote:
     
    >
    >Doesn't the boot partition have to NOT have soft updates though?
    >
    >[/ref]
    No, I don't think so.
     
    That configuration should not make serious fs corruption more likely, it
    just
    makes it more likely to happen on the / partition (!). In general, the
    FreeBSD
    filesystem is highly tolerant of things like power failures, and should
    be even
    better when softupdates is turned on. But it can fail, and 5.2.1 was NOT
    considered a production release, so that could have also played a role in
    your problems. I don't remember if softupdates had problems on 5.2.1 or
    not.
     
    >
    >I want / + /boot. It's that simple.
    >
    >
    >[/ref]

    What are you really trying to accomplish? You want to run softupdates
    on / ?

    I believe it is perfectly acceptable to use softupdates on the root
    partition these
    days. The Handbook recommends turning on softupdates for all filesystems.
    See
    http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/configtuning-disk.html

    I'm pretty sure my test system at home has only / and swap (because it
    has a small hard drive), and uses softupdates on /. I'll check when I get
    home.

    If you have some other reason for separating /boot from /, explain your
    actual
    goal, and perhaps we can help.

    - Bob

    Bob Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:09, Jesse Guardiani wrote: 
    > >
    > > I'm not sure I understand the problem. If you don't want to create more
    > > partitions, then don't. You can make an 80gb (or 300gb, or whatever)
    > > drive into two partitions - a swap partition (2gig) and a / partition
    > > (78 gig) and install FreeBSD just fine.[/ref]
    >
    > Doesn't the boot partition have to NOT have soft updates though?
    > I created the setup you described about a year ago with 5.2.1, and
    > I had serious problems if the system ever hard rebooted after a
    > power failure. Single user manual fsck's and all that.[/ref]
    If that is true, then why not create /, /usr & /swap & symlink /var to
    somewhere on /usr (or vice versa). 
    >
    > I want / + /boot. It's that simple.[/ref]

    --
    Ian

    GPG Key: http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~imoore/no-spam.asc

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    Ian Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    On Thursday 03 March 2005 07:45 pm, Bob Johnson wrote: 
    > >
    > >Doesn't the boot partition have to NOT have soft updates though?[/ref]
    >
    > No, I don't think so.

    >
    > That configuration should not make serious fs corruption more likely, it
    > just
    > makes it more likely to happen on the / partition (!). In general, the
    > FreeBSD
    > filesystem is highly tolerant of things like power failures, and should
    > be even
    > better when softupdates is turned on. But it can fail, and 5.2.1 was NOT
    > considered a production release, so that could have also played a role in
    > your problems. I don't remember if softupdates had problems on 5.2.1 or
    > not.

    > >
    > >I want / + /boot. It's that simple.[/ref]
    >
    > What are you really trying to accomplish? You want to run softupdates
    > on / ?
    >
    > I believe it is perfectly acceptable to use softupdates on the root
    > partition these
    > days. The Handbook recommends turning on softupdates for all filesystems.
    > See
    > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/configtuning-disk
    >.html
    >
    > I'm pretty sure my test system at home has only / and swap (because it
    > has a small hard drive), and uses softupdates on /. I'll check when I get
    > home.
    >[/ref]

    Nope, for some reason I didn't set that up last time I installed something
    (5.3) on it, but I can almost guarantee that I have done so in the past. Now
    I've turned on softupdates on the root partition and so far (about an hour)
    it's been happy. For what that's worth.

    Maybe I'll turn off the power while the system is active just to see what
    happens (actually, I'm still fascinated by the background fsck that 5.3
    runs).

    - Bob



    Bob Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    Jesse Guardiani writes:
     

    You don't _have_ to create these partitions. They are just the
    suggested configuration (and the default if you have the system create
    partitions for you). All you really need is a swap partition and a root
    partition (/).

    --
    Anthony


    Anthony Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    Jesse Guardiani writes:
     

    That's your choice. By default, it won't, since data loss is more
    likely with soft updates (anything that doesn't immediately write
    everything physically to disk creates a risk of data loss). But you can
    force it if you wish.
     

    That's what a UPS is for. You can never guarantee data integrity with
    any type of write caching. FreeBSD attempts to ensure that the file
    system directory structure (inodes) is coherent at all times, if not
    perfectly up to date, but there is still a chance of data loss in files
    if the system is not shut down cleanly.
     

    Then create them that way.

    --
    Anthony


    Anthony Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    At 6:24 AM +0100 3/4/05, Anthony Atkielski wrote: 
    >
    >That's your choice. By default, it won't, since data loss
    >is more likely with soft updates (anything that doesn't
    >immediately write everything physically to disk creates a
    >risk of data loss). But you can force it if you wish.[/ref]

    Softupdates is generally turned off for '/', because '/' is
    expected to be a relatively small partition. Earlier versions
    of softupdates would behave badly if a partition was low on
    free disk space, and if you removed a lot of files immediately
    followed by creating about the same amount of files. This is
    exactly what happens when you do a 'make installkernel', and
    that used to run into problems if '/' was tight on space.

    That is not as much of a problem now, but it is still reasonable
    to have softupdates be off *if* '/' is a small partition which
    doesn't get updated very much.

    I have run with softupdates on for '/' on all my systems, for
    a few years now. It has not caused me any problems that I
    know of, but then the way I define my partitions is probably a
    lot different than what most people do.

    If we thought that softupdates made it *significantly* more
    likely that users would *lose* data, then we would not turn it
    on for any partitions!
     
    >
    >Then create them that way.[/ref]

    It happens that this will run into some problems, as has been
    described in other messages in this thread.

    For what it's worth, I (personally) like the idea of having a
    separate /boot partition, but I have many other projects that
    are more important to me (personally), so I haven't spent any
    time looking into this project yet.

    --
    Garance Alistair Drosehn = netel.rpi.edu
    Senior Systems Programmer or org
    Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA
    Garance Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    Jesse Guardiani writes:
     

    Because the root is not often written, and any data loss on the root is
    likely to have more negative effects than on other directories (often it
    would be something like a kernel rebuild). So sysinstall turns it off by
    default for the root. But you can turn it on if you want to.
     

    Soft updates has been improved in recent releases. It is now designed
    to physically write data back to the disk in a way that keeps the
    directory coherent (if not necessarily up to date) at all times.

    --
    Anthony


    Anthony Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    On 2005-03-03 18:39, Jesse Guardiani <net> wrote: 
    >
    > I want / + /boot. It's that simple.[/ref]

    Why? The root file system is not written so often anyway. Why would
    you care about separating /boot from it?

    Giorgos Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 01:15:00AM -0500, Garance A Drosehn wrote: 

    Anthony's probably confusing softupdates + write caching on modern ATA
    disks; the last undermines some of softupdates' fundamental
    assumptions (ie the drive lies about data being written to disk) such
    that it is indeed more likely in the event of a powerfailure that data
    is lost.

    Then again, write caching on modern ATA disks without softupdates also
    is not really safe; so the win of turning off just softupdates is not
    that big.

    --Stijn

    --
    There are of course many problems connected with life, of which some of
    the most popular are 'Why are people born?', 'Why do they die?', and
    `Why do they spend so much of the intervening time wearing digital
    watches?'
    -- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy"

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    Stijn Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:08:24 -0500
    Jesse Guardiani <net> wrote:
     
    --------- cut ----------- 

    not true, during installation you have the choice *NOT* to choose auto
    defaults

    and even when you choose the auto defaults option you can still edit it

    (i really like the auto defaults on my server)

    albi@scii.nl Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    Jesse Guardiani wrote:
     

    You are not required to create separate partitions, but there are good
    reasons to do so, namely to avoid that inconsistencies affect vital
    partitions. / is vital, with a separate /boot, you may be able to boot
    but you don't get anywhere - the fsck is on /.

    There is not reason to keep /boot separate from /, but there are good
    reasons to keep /usr, /var, /home and /tmp separate.

    You don't need to create swap, given you have enough RAM.

    All this applies to FreeBSD and Linux. I learned to keep /tmp separate
    the hard way, but that was back in the times of ext2 on linux.

    Cheers, Erik

    --
    Ph: +34.666334818 web: http://www.locolomo.org
    S/MIME Certificate: http://www.locolomo.org/crt/2004071206.crt
    Subject ID: A9:76:7A:ED:06:95:2B:8D:48:97:CE:F2:3F:42:C8:F2:22 :DE:4C:B9
    Fingerprint: 4A:E8:63:38:46:F6:9A:5D:B4:DC:29:41:3F:62:D3:0A:73 :25:67:C2
    Erik Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    Bob Johnson wrote:
     
    >>
    >>Doesn't the boot partition have to NOT have soft updates though?
    >>
    >>[/ref]
    > No, I don't think so.[/ref]

    Then why doesn't sysinstall enable soft updates on the root FS by default?

     
    > That configuration should not make serious fs corruption more likely, it
    > just
    > makes it more likely to happen on the / partition (!).[/ref]

    :)

     

    Look, I'm not new to FreeBSD. I know all of this. I just want to know if
    it's possible to tell my boot loader which device my root partition is on.

     
    >>
    >>I want / + /boot. It's that simple.
    >>
    >>
    >>[/ref]
    >
    > What are you really trying to accomplish?[/ref]

    Reliability and efficient use of disk space.

     

    No, I want to consolidate all of my mount points while simultaneously
    running softupdates on everything BUT the boot partition.

     

    I don't. It hasn't worked well in the past.

     

    Yes, please let me know how well it responds to a hard power cycle. A normal
    FreeBSD system without softupdates on the root or boot partition should come
    right back up without a manual fsck. In my experience, if softupdates are
    used on the root partition and the root partition doubles as the boot partition
    then you'll have much more difficulty recovering from a power failure.

    --
    Jesse Guardiani, Systems Administrator
    WingNET Internet Services,
    P.O. Box 2605 // Cleveland, TN 37320-2605
    423-559-LINK (v) 423-559-5145 (f)
    http://www.wingnet.net


    Jesse Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    Jesse Guardiani writes:
     

    In the 5.x timeframe, I believe, but I don't remember exactly when the
    improvements were made. I recall that soft updates are now encouraged
    on just about any partition.

    I've never had any trouble with it, but my system is lightly loaded and
    has hardly come close to being put through every possible scenario.

    --
    Anthony


    Anthony Guest

  19. #19

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    Anthony Atkielski wrote:
     
    >
    > Because the root is not often written, and any data loss on the root is
    > likely to have more negative effects than on other directories (often it
    > would be something like a kernel rebuild). So sysinstall turns it off by
    > default for the root. But you can turn it on if you want to.

    >
    > Soft updates has been improved in recent releases. It is now designed
    > to physically write data back to the disk in a way that keeps the
    > directory coherent (if not necessarily up to date) at all times.[/ref]

    How recent are we talking about?

    I'm about to try softupdates on a giant root partition simply because
    everyone keeps telling me that it should work fine. My data is currently
    backed up, so I have nothing to lose. And I can test your theories.

    --
    Jesse Guardiani, Systems Administrator
    WingNET Internet Services,
    P.O. Box 2605 // Cleveland, TN 37320-2605
    423-559-LINK (v) 423-559-5145 (f)
    http://www.wingnet.net


    Jesse Guest

  20. #20

    Default Re: /boot like linux!

    Anthony Atkielski wrote:
     
    >
    > In the 5.x timeframe, I believe, but I don't remember exactly when the
    > improvements were made. I recall that soft updates are now encouraged
    > on just about any partition.
    >
    > I've never had any trouble with it, but my system is lightly loaded and
    > has hardly come close to being put through every possible scenario.[/ref]

    Seems to be working quite well with just / and swap. I guess I was running
    into either old softupdate issues or ATAng issues when I ran 5.2.1 on my
    laptop.

    Thanks for the advice everyone!

    --
    Jesse Guardiani, Systems Administrator
    WingNET Internet Services,
    P.O. Box 2605 // Cleveland, TN 37320-2605
    423-559-LINK (v) 423-559-5145 (f)
    http://www.wingnet.net


    Jesse Guest

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