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Building Web pages - Macromedia Fireworks

Hi, Do most people build pages in Fireworks and export them into Dreamweaver? If so, what is the best size canvas to use? Thank you, Jeff...

  1. #1

    Default Building Web pages

    Hi,

    Do most people build pages in Fireworks and export them into Dreamweaver? If so, what is the best size canvas to use?

    Thank you,

    Jeff




    jpaine Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    No, Most people will build the look of the web site in FW and cut it up and
    rebuild it in DW.
    The html that FW export is chunky.

    Alan Dukes
    "jpaine" <com> wrote in message
    news:bub9g0$7s$macromedia.com... 
    If so, what is the best size canvas to use? 


    Alan Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    Jeff:

    Most people who just want to put up a web page would do it that way.

    Most people who are serious about learning web methods, or becoming web
    developers may start that way, but quickly move away from it, I think.

    Why is that?

    1. Any HTML written by a wizard is going to be monolithic in the sense that
    it is specifically designed for the exact page you have built. This means
    that while it may look OK in the browser if what you have built in FW is the
    only page you want to put on the web, it will likely not be ideal when used
    as a generic HTML structure, within which you want to create multiple
    similar pages.

    2. Because of this monolithic nature of the code, you will likely find that
    it is complex and convoluted on visual examination. This makes it harder
    for new developers to a) understand what is happening when things fall
    apart, and b) get a sense of what constitutes good and bad code. In other
    words, while helping you create the page, it actually impedes your progress.

    3. It's just not right to use a graphics program to write HTML.

    (watch how much flak I take for #3)

    --
    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
    Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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    "jpaine" <com> wrote in message
    news:bub9g0$7s$macromedia.com... 
    If so, what is the best size canvas to use? 


    Murray Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 08:35:46 -0500, Murray *TMM* wrote:
     

    My background is that of a software engineer - developing software
    commercially since 1980 in multiple languages - ASM, C, C++, Clipper,
    Smalltalk.

    I have to agree with ALL of your points COMPLETELY. Furthermore, before
    anyone else jumps on #3, I'd say that any graphical environment for
    producing code is ONLY helpful AFTER one has mastered the language for
    which it is intended. Perhaps the only language that doesn't apply to is
    Smalltalk, and even there, a graphical environmentis only helpful to create
    the GUI (or view) part of an application after the creation of the model,
    and it is imperative to understand the creational syntax before using any
    shortcuts.

    I'm new to web design, but the principals are exactly the same.
    --

    Larry
    email is rapp at lmr dot com
    Larry Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    Murray *TMM* wrote:
     

    Not from me. I believe in using the best tool for each task and
    Fireworks is very ill suited to the job of authoring HTML code. This job
    should be left entirely to a dedicated tool IMO, either a visual one
    like Dreamweaver for instance or code a based one like HomeSite or
    TopStyle Pro or a mixture of both as I normally do in my workflow.

    HTML's primary function is to define the logical structure of a Web
    doent and it cannot guess what part is a header, what part is a
    paragraph contained in the main content section of a page or a pullquote
    or news box on the side or whatever, yet your HTML markup should reflect
    those logical delimitations. A human is needed to take those decisions
    and implement them. They simply cannot be automated and, even if
    Fireworks lets you export seemingly functionning whole Web pages, don't
    let the marketing hype fool you. They are rarely if ever optimal for a
    variety of reasons (search engine indexing, accessibility, code bloat, etc).

    Fireworks is used to create comps of the layout and it is a wonderful
    creative tool for that. I haven't used Photoshop in years since I
    discovered FW. But you then have to decide on a slicing strategy where
    you figure out what parts of your design need to be exported as images
    and what parts should be better left as HTML text styled with CSS. That
    also means deciding if your layout is better rebuilt in your Web
    authoring application as a table based layout of a completely CSS
    controlled one. Many factors should influence that decision including a
    knowledge of the site's target audience and the layout itself.

    All in all, it should be abundantly clear that automating those tasks
    will never yield optimal results so why not learn to do it right from
    the start?

    Cheers!

    Stéphane Bergeron

    Stéphane Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    Stéphane Bergeron wrote: 

    I meant that *Fireworks* cannot guess those things of course... ;-)

    Stéphane Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    <bravo!> 8)

    The big standing O for Stéphane!

    --
    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
    Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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    ==================

    "Stéphane Bergeron" <com> wrote in message
    news:bubo9d$ej5$macromedia.com... 
    >
    > Not from me. I believe in using the best tool for each task and
    > Fireworks is very ill suited to the job of authoring HTML code. This job
    > should be left entirely to a dedicated tool IMO, either a visual one
    > like Dreamweaver for instance or code a based one like HomeSite or
    > TopStyle Pro or a mixture of both as I normally do in my workflow.
    >
    > HTML's primary function is to define the logical structure of a Web
    > doent and it cannot guess what part is a header, what part is a
    > paragraph contained in the main content section of a page or a pullquote
    > or news box on the side or whatever, yet your HTML markup should reflect
    > those logical delimitations. A human is needed to take those decisions
    > and implement them. They simply cannot be automated and, even if
    > Fireworks lets you export seemingly functionning whole Web pages, don't
    > let the marketing hype fool you. They are rarely if ever optimal for a
    > variety of reasons (search engine indexing, accessibility, code bloat,[/ref]
    etc). 


    Murray Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    Murray *TMM* wrote:
     

    Are you saying that he should write his own markup in Notepad? :-)

    Linda Rathgeber
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Design Aid: 10-Palette Pack for Fireworks & Flash
    http://www.webdevbiz.com/graphics.cfm
    Playing with Fire | http://www.playingwithfire.com
    Victoriana | Theme Pack 03 - Club | http://www.projectseven.com
    Team MM Fireworks Volunteer | www.macromedia.com/go/team
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Linda Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    On 17 Jan 2004 in macromedia.fireworks, Linda Rathgeber wrote:
     
    >
    > Are you saying that he should write his own markup in Notepad? :-)[/ref]

    At the risk of taking flak (I'll follow Murray into the breach here), it
    would be nice if everybody who wanted to call him/herself a web developer
    would learn to do that. I'm not saying they should do it on every site.
    In fact, I write very little code in a text editor. However, I learned
    HTML that way, and I still do it. It makes those little tweaks so much
    easier. And the forums would have far fewer repetitive and RTFM
    questions.

    --
    Joe Makowiec can be reached at:
    http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe
    Joe Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    Ummm - wait....

    --
    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
    Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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    ==================

    "Linda Rathgeber" <rr.com> wrote in message
    news:bubpf5$fnn$macromedia.com... [/ref]
    that 
    >
    > Are you saying that he should write his own markup in Notepad? :-)
    >
    > Linda Rathgeber
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > Design Aid: 10-Palette Pack for Fireworks & Flash
    > http://www.webdevbiz.com/graphics.cfm
    > Playing with Fire | http://www.playingwithfire.com
    > Victoriana | Theme Pack 03 - Club | http://www.projectseven.com
    > Team MM Fireworks Volunteer | www.macromedia.com/go/team
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    >[/ref]


    Murray Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    No flak from me, Mr. Summers! ;-)

    With the advent of gaining popularity of CSS, I find it even more important
    to "know your code." There are many things that either can't be done in a
    visual editor with CSS, or things that are just plain easier to customize
    and "tweak" via the code.

    --
    | Jim Babbage - CMX
    | Newmedia Services
    | * Web Design * Photography * Training * Consulting *
    | http://www.nms123.ca | ca

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    | http://www.communityMX.com/
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    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    "Murray *TMM*" <com> wrote in message
    news:bubtq0$jj4$macromedia.com... [/ref][/ref]
    sense 
    > >
    > > Are you saying that he should write his own markup in Notepad? :-)
    > >
    > > Linda Rathgeber
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > > Design Aid: 10-Palette Pack for Fireworks & Flash
    > > http://www.webdevbiz.com/graphics.cfm
    > > Playing with Fire | http://www.playingwithfire.com
    > > Victoriana | Theme Pack 03 - Club | http://www.projectseven.com
    > > Team MM Fireworks Volunteer | www.macromedia.com/go/team
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > >[/ref]
    >
    >[/ref]


    Jim Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    Whee - the FW minions haven't logged on yet I see.... 8)

    --
    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
    Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
    ==================
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    ==================

    "Jim Babbage - CMX" <ca> wrote in message
    news:buc6n3$s29$macromedia.com... 
    important 
    -- [/ref]
    GET [/ref]
    > sense 
    > >
    > >[/ref]
    >
    >[/ref]


    Murray Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    Hi Everybody,

    Thank you all for your replies.

    Jeff


    jpaine Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    Jeff:

    You're welcome!

    --
    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
    Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
    ==================
    news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver - THE BEST WAY TO GET
    ANSWERS
    ==================
    http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
    http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
    http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
    http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
    ==================

    "jpaine" <com> wrote in message
    news:bucs3k$hri$macromedia.com... 


    Murray Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    never has a truer word been said in this newsgroup



    Karl <~~ passes Murray some Kevlar body armour

     


    Karl Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    <donning armor>

    Thanks Karl! Now, I'm ready for bear!

    --
    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
    Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
    ==================
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    ==================
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    ==================

    "Karl Goddard" <com> wrote in message
    news:buec4n$ruq$macromedia.com... 
    >
    >[/ref]


    Murray Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: Building Web pages

    Man it is so good to hear you all echoing exactly how I feel and
    teach. I teach web design in high school. The curriculum I developed
    this year for the county starts in Notepad - works up through tables
    by hand. Moves into DW and then I show then how to use FW to layout a
    design and bring the bits in piece by piece to DW.

    Peace,
    Tobias



    "Murray *TMM*" <com> wrote in message news:<buedku$6h$macromedia.com>... 
    > >
    > >[/ref][/ref]
    Tobias Guest

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