You hit the nail on the head.
Jackilynn, Ken and Bob By chance I have a similar situation. Having inherited some ID CS (3.0, not 3.0.1) doents with auto bullets, I have been able to hit return and get a bulleted paragraph, but just cannot see how this has happened. Our employer is baulking at upgrading from ID CS to ID CS2 because of the somewhat outrageous cost, so I assume that we don’t have the PageMaker plugin. (Since at home I leapfrogged CS and got to CS2 from Photoshop 7 much more cheaply, I can sympathize. Clearly early adopters of CS are being penalized by Adobe.) ...
Jackilynn, Ken and Bob
By chance I have a similar situation. Having inherited some ID CS (3.0, not 3.0.1) doents with auto bullets, I have been able to hit return and get a bulleted paragraph, but just cannot see how this has happened. Our employer is baulking at upgrading from ID CS to ID CS2 because of the somewhat outrageous cost, so I assume that we don’t have the PageMaker plugin. (Since at home I leapfrogged CS and got to CS2 from Photoshop 7 much more cheaply, I can sympathize. Clearly early adopters of CS are being penalized by Adobe.)
I thought that the auto bullets had come from originating PageMaker doents, with ID CS somehow creating bulleted styles when converting PageMaker auto bullets. But I checked all the legacy PageMaker doents on which the current series is based and all bullets are manually added. Furthermore, I can see no nested styles at work in the ID CS doents. A mystery.
I assume that the ID PageMaker plugin, if one has it, merely gives the one basic bullet option. Just when is Adobe going to stop gazing at QuarkXPress and plunder Ventura’s advanced features? InDesign users can simply dream of the day when bullets become an established setting in paragraph styles and they can select any character they like as a bullet. Ventura users have been able to do that since the mid-80s. Are Adobe’s programmers blissfully unaware of this? I produce government and educational books that are littered with bulleted paragraphs. Offering the limited PageMaker bullet function in InDesign is hardly programming brilliance.
You hit the nail on the head.
I have just done some extra reading on this issue and have noted a statement in the PDF in which Adobe urges PageMaker users to switch to InDesign CS2 (pm_up_faq.pdf):
Automated bullets and numbering: Automatically create and style bulleted and numbered lists or save them as part of paragraph styles. Numbered lists update automatically when changes are made.
Although I have ID CS2 at home, 99% of my work with ID is done in ID CS at work, and so I am intrigued by the claim that in ID CS2 bullets can be saved in paragraph styles. I must check this tonight. But I wonder whether Adobe is still referring to the standard rounded bullet and not to the whole range of bullets and special characters that Corel allows users to save in its paragraph styles. But I would be delighted to be proved wrong.
> InDesign users can simply dream of the day when bullets become an established setting in paragraph styles and they can select any character they like as a bullet.
They don't need to dream - they can instead simply look at IDCS2 or IDCS with the PM plugin.
Consider yourself delighted. IDCS2 (or IDCS with the PM plugin) has a tab in the paragraph styles dialogue called "Bullets and Numbering". You can choose any bullet or glyph from any font and save it to what is essentially a "quick list". It is as flexible as the Ventura bullet feature, though not quite as simple - things like baseline shift and underlining and the like need to be done via character styles and nested styles. The numbering, however, is not as good as Ventura's or Framemaker's.
If you create a bulleted style and then give the file to someone with IDCS but not the PM plugin, they can see the bullets and (I understand) they can also create a new bulleted paragraph by hitting enter after an existing bulleted paragraph, but they can't make new styles.
Our employer is baulking at upgrading from ID CS to ID CS2 because of
the somewhat outrageous cost
We are a very small business on a very tight budget. We were able to cost justify the minimal upgrade cost on improved productivity of two people. We calculated payback at six to eight months for an upgrade of a Photoshop license to the CS2 suite and an IDCS license to IDCS2.
Just when is Adobe going to stop gazing at QuarkXPress and plunder Ventura’s
advanced features ... when bullets become an established setting in paragraph
styles and they can select any character they like as a bullet
About March 2005.
I certainly am thoroughly delighted to at last be proved wrong about Adobe's apparent unwillingness to add basic desktop publishing tools to InDesign. My lack of use of ID CS2 at home to date is the reason for my ignorance about its new features. I had admitted this is my reply to Bill.
But this long-awaited bulleting feature (despite its lack of simplicity when compared with Ventura’s) won't do me much good in the short term. As I have stated, I am stuck with non-plugin ID CS in my day job because of the boss’s reluctance to upgrade.
The questions for my boss are: Can the PM plugin be got for free or cheaply by ID CS Standard owners? (Yes, apparently Premium was beyond the budget as well.) Is the plugin in the 3.0.1 update? (There is no mention on this site that it is.)
Auto bullets may have arrived in March 2005, but Adobe has a long way to go to catch up with Ventura when it comes to book publishing features. And Corel has a lot to add to Ventura but has yet to add even a graphic filter to allow Draw 12 (or 13!) graphics to be imported into Ventura 10, let alone release a 10.1 update. Things are very bleak in Desktop Publishing Land. We seem to be expected to be content with morsels at a time.
The PM plugin were free with either the standard or premium suite.
Anyone purchasing the original release of the suite before the plugins
were released was given an opportunity to get them for free. That offer
expired over a year ago.
The plugins are no longer for sale.
The fates are against us. Adobe does have some strange marketing policies. If you have a free plugin, why not leave it online to be downloaded whenever someone wants it? I'm out of the door at the end of the week, returning to freelancing and leaving my colleagues bulletless until funds are released for CS2. We delayed going to CS, so we wouldn't have considered the plugin when it was available.
"If you have a free plugin, why not leave it online to be downloaded
whenever someone wants it?"
Because it wasn't free to everyone. Users of stand-alone InDesign had to buy
And it would be a disincentive to sales of the updated version of the
program to enable users of the previous version to get some of the features
The upgrade from CS to CS2 costs way less than it would cost your boss to
have his car serviced. And I'd bet he wouldn't miss out on that.
> And it would be a disincentive to sales of the updated version of the
Then they should continue to sell it. As a company attempting to build
market share for ID, they sure aren't doing it in any interesting ways.
But, ID isn't going to break down if they don't upgrade. <g> Besides,
capital expenditures and maintenance are different budgets, and sometimes
"Then they should continue to sell it. As a company attempting to build
market share for ID, they sure aren't doing it in any interesting ways."
I still don't agree that there is any sense in selling an upgrade to a
program that is no longer available. It would be better for users of CS
wanting the features of the PageMaker plug-in to roll the cost of the
plug-in into the cost of an upgrade to CS2. If they would be prepared to buy
the plug-in, then the rest of the improvements they get by updating to CS2
are even cheaper.
<clutching at straws>"Besides, capital expenditures and maintenance are
different budgets, and sometimes taxed differently."</clutching at straws>
I'm delighted to have stumbled on this thread and learned of this new
feature in CS2. I have a preference for using one of the dingbats rotated 90
degrees. (I like the triangle pointing to the text.) I usually just create
outlines and manually place the rotated bullets. Now that I know about this
feature, I'm wondering if there's any way for me to add a custom glyph. I
know how to create a glyph set with a font. BUT is there a way to add an
object to a set or to add a rotated font to a set?
I just discovered that wingdings3 actually has the bullet I want facing the
way I want! YEAH! But I still wonder for future reference about the ability
to use objects or rotate glyphs.
> <clutching at straws
Unfortunately, it's real where I live. Cap expenses get frozen all the time,
and maintenance must go on. The leaky urinal gets more money than my
BTW, I just downloaded the OCR plug-in for Acrobat 5.
"The leaky urinal gets more money than my productivity software."
That begs a comment about what the management must be taking, but it would
probably be censored by the forum hosts.
"BTW, I just downloaded the OCR plug-in for Acrobat 5."
Well that does suggest that Adobe is keeping alive legacy applications -
although Acrobat is a slightly different product in that any version could
be nurtured to achieve/maintain the universality of the PDF format.
Particularly in view of the upcoming next Windows release which will bring
with it Microsoft's own universal file format.
There's no simple way to use a roatated glyph for a bullet. Rotation would be a good addition to the character styles, 'cause then it would be simple.
Actually, upon investigation, bullets are even more complicated than I thought - the only way I can get a nested style to affect only the bullet (and not the first letter following) is to select "up to end nested style character" and then put an end nested style character before the first word of the list item. Nested styles are great, but I do wish Adobe would steal more of Ventura's comprehensive dialogues and not leave you to do things in a roundabout way.
Sorry, but I don't 'buy' the argument that a useful plugin should be offered to some users only and then to no users at all, merely to encourage upgrading to CS2. We will upgrade to CS2 eventually, but the plugin would be very useful in the meantime if only for auto bullets.
Re the car servicing argument, we will require eight licences and have bought CS1 only a few months ago, having got along nicely with pre-CS Adobe products. Adobe's pricing is all at sea with the Creative Suite. Taking street prices, here the upgrade to CS2 Premium from CS1 is A$874, while upgrading from Photoshop 7 and leapfrogging CS1 it is A$1188. I personally took advantage of this offer, but anyone who upgraded to CS1 before going to CS2 would have paid well into four figures extra for the privilege, puttng them well out of pocket. IMHO the upgrade to CS2 from CS1 should have been more like a A$250 job at the most, especially as it was brought on very quickly. That would have matched the Photoshop 'upsell'.
Holding off seems to be the way to go. It works with hardware and now increasingly for software. I am still pinching myself about my QuarkXPress coup. I bought a legit international copy of version 3 in Bangkok (believe it or not!), registered it and waited for a deal I couldn't resist. It came. Just $580 for an upgrade from 3 to 6.5, the varying prices depending on the version being upgraded having been abandoned. The poor unfortunates who bought QXP way back and have paid for expensive upgrades (in the early days more like the price of the original product) would have paid many thousands to get to 6.5. I recall that at one time it cost A$3500 just to get into QXP.
Adobe has been very generous in the past with its upgrading policies, usually allowing upgrades from any previous version, but I am less impressed with its CS policies. Quark is getting more generous (for obvious market reasons) and Adobe is fast going the other way (for obvious market reasons).
Adobe has never sold old versions. Once they're discontinued, that's it.
The PM plugin for ID CS are no different.
I obviously agree with your comment about the roundabout approach. This even extends to InDesign's dialogue boxes. Ventura has all its styles (character, paragraph, frame, page, rule and table) in one box. Has anyone at Adobe noticed that non-roundabout approach?
Sometimes I wonder whether people reading publications produced with InDesign and QuarkXPress are aware of the roundabouts and workarounds that have had to be resorted to in order to get the basic effects on a page.
I'm curious: If Ventura is so great, how come it's not the dominant page layout application after all these years instead of InDesign and (previously) QuarkXPress?