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Canon 20D ?? - Photography

After reading allot of forms it seems like the 20D has some issues with showing banding in their pictures only taken at a hi ISO of 800 plus. Some claim theirs do not show this and others show some not very good pictures with this banding showing badly. Some pictures have to be brought in brightness to show the shadow highlights and there it is. I know some say there is a work around ( Like trying to learn to drive a faulty car with problems ) on how you take the picture but are some of us stuck with ...

  1. #1

    Default Canon 20D ??

    After reading allot of forms it seems like the 20D has some issues with
    showing banding in their pictures only taken at a hi ISO of 800 plus. Some
    claim theirs do not show this and others show some not very good pictures
    with this banding showing badly. Some pictures have to be brought in
    brightness to show the shadow highlights and there it is. I know some say
    there is a work around ( Like trying to learn to drive a faulty car with
    problems ) on how you take the picture but are some of us stuck with this as
    it seems to be. Canon says it is in specs so some with the problem is
    ed and some have just lucked out. Now also I see that the built in
    flash,or using a external flash is having a problem coming up with very dark
    pictures. One sole suggested that every thing needs to hold a 18% gray card
    for it to work , now that sounds like a bunch of crap, try putting one on a
    bird, cat or dog. Sounds like the 50s technology. Is Canon looking at
    these problems or we going to have to get the next model. Is this model a
    trying ground for the new Cemos sensor ,and flash program to work the bugs
    out, sounds like Windows 3.1 all over again.




    Steve Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

    Steve <net> wrote:

    [diatribe of oh-how-terrible-bad the 20D is (banding)
    and oh-how-terrible-bad the Canon customer service is and
    oh-how-terrible-bad all this 50's technology is, all hearsay
    of course. You get the drift.]

    I don't see a question mark in your text.
    Did you actually have a question? If so, please formulate it.
    Or are you just trying to fling dirt, based on hear-say?

    -Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??


    "Wolfgang Weisselberg" <com> wrote in message
    news:user.berlin.de... 

    Given the fact he multi-posted the same message (but with a different
    subject line) in RPD, one has to assume he's attempting to fling
    something.

    Bart

    Bart Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

    plenty of banding pictures with the D70 too, just search the D70 forum on
    dpreview.com


    Chuck Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??


    "Steve" <net> wrote in message
    news:com... 

    Wow. You'd better not buy then one.


    Martin Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

    Steve wrote:
     


    Pretty mindless rant, that. There are a hell of a lot of Canon 20D users
    producing very good to fantastic photography.

    That is what counts. That is _all_ that counts.

    Grey card? Why not? OTOH in a given light situation it would be easier to take
    one test photo, look at the histo, adjust exposure, test again and then set
    those settings manually and shoot that alone. Nice consistent results. 99% of
    exposure errors are the photographer not understanding exposure or the metering
    system of the camera. Flash integration is an issue and can be compensated. It
    is an issue with other makers as well.

    CMOS a la Canon has proven itself with low noise and great images.

    Needless to say, Canon have been the leaders in digital SLR. They will improve,
    improve and improve again and they will be in front for the forseeable future.

    Cheers,
    Alan


    --
    -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
    -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
    Alan Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Canon 20D ?? Dark pictures with flash

    Hi Guys!

    I have the feeling you push a bit tough. Criticism is not allowed here?


    I've a Pentax Ist DS which is very fine but I suffer also sometimes
    this dark picture with the incorporated flash. So far this pb stays
    clueless to me.

    This Canon DSLR is certainly a good camera (I've the Ixus one and happy
    with it), it's nevertheless certainly not flawless. Such newsgroup is
    supposed to help people facing or fearing for such flaw.

    You've not been very constructive in your answer: you barely give any
    explaination nor advice but only react harsh to Steve. Try instead to
    share ur experience.

    Regarding that flash problem. I got it especially once with a scene in
    light background and dark foreground (someone sitted in front of a
    window). I tried many things (centered AE, memorized AE on another dark
    area, etc.) but only got completely dark pictures (even if the flash
    triggered but at very low brightness). Any clue would be appreciated.
    Would Aperture priority or fully manual be a workaround?


    Rgds
    Olivier


    Alan Browne wrote: [/ref]
    with [/ref]
    plus. Some [/ref]
    pictures [/ref]
    in [/ref]
    some say [/ref]
    with [/ref]
    with this as [/ref]
    is [/ref]
    built in [/ref]
    very dark [/ref]
    gray card [/ref]
    one on a [/ref]
    looking at [/ref]
    model a [/ref]
    the bugs 
    >[/ref]

    oooolivier Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

    I am relatively new to the 20d and have been befuddled by pictures
    taken with the built in flash. I get the best results either in P or M
    mode. I went from film to a Canon A70 2 years ago and the A70 gives me
    what I would say is a better flash picture, or what I was used to with
    an old shoe mounted flash on a circa 1980 Konica SLR. In other words
    very bright. I posted my question on a forum and was told that what I
    was getting was normal for the 20d. The 20d seemed to be using the
    flash as more of a fill than as a primary (harsh) light source. I
    haven't seen the banding and have taken shots through the ISO range
    just to see the difference. Of course this has been all play and will
    most likely change when the shot counts.

    cruzyn56 Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

    "cruzyn56" <com> wrote in message
    news:googlegroups.com... 

    Yep, the 20D and the built in flash, or any Canon flash, for that matter,
    defaults to fill flash when there is any ambient light. So, images tend to
    be underexposed by as much as 1 1/3 stops, to preserve the background.
    Whether or not you want the background preserved...

    --
    Skip Middleton
    http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com


    Skip Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

    Is there a way to turn this fill in feature off.



    "Skip M" <net> wrote in message
    news:y2MMd.28836$.. 
    >
    > Yep, the 20D and the built in flash, or any Canon flash, for that matter,
    > defaults to fill flash when there is any ambient light. So, images tend[/ref]
    to 


    SteveJ Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

    Not on the 20D. Custom Function 14, I believe, on the D30 and 10D did, but
    that is no longer available.

    --
    Skip Middleton
    http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

    "SteveJ" <net> wrote in message
    news:com... 
    >>
    >> Yep, the 20D and the built in flash, or any Canon flash, for that matter,
    >> defaults to fill flash when there is any ambient light. So, images tend[/ref]
    > to 
    >
    >[/ref]


    Skip Guest

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    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

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    PRAR Guest
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  13. Moderated Post

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

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    Skip Guest
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

    Skip M wrote:
     


    That would be a long dragged shutter to expose background lights (city
    backdrop) and the foreground with flash.


    --
    -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
    -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
    Alan Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??


    "Skip M" <net> wrote in message
    news:y2MMd.28836$.. 

    This background ambient light exposure should only happen in the basic zones
    or Av modes, Tv mode should give correct exposure with no ambient light fill
    unless the shutter speed is too low or you are in very bright light. This is
    on P92 of the manual.

    I find the flash exposure is OK in terms of average grey.

    Test 1:

    Take a average grey card set evaluative exposure, fill the viewfinder and
    expose in ambient only (Shot A) and Tv flash with a sufficiently high
    shutter speed to ensure the ambient light contribution is small (Shot B).

    Check histograms, I find they are both about as expected and very similar
    values. So the flash and ambient light metering is in agreement.

    Test 2:

    Take a average grey card and a similar sized white paper or card and place
    them side by side. Set evaluative exposure, fill the viewfinder with both
    sheets, white on the left and grey on the right.

    Select the far right focus point.

    Expose with flash with a sufficiently high shutter speed to ensure the
    ambient light contribution is small (Shot C).

    Select the far left focus point.

    Repeat the exposure (Shot D).

    Check results.

    Shot C should show fairly white paper and the average grey card at about the
    same density as Shot B.

    Comparing shot D with C shows that D is darker, the metering system has been
    tricked by the white paper because of the active focus spot which selects
    where flash metering occurs.

    This is sort of hinted at on P149 in the AE lock table, but it is unclear.

    Having said this the white paper will probably be at least a stop or two
    from saturation. I think this and the focus point selection issue above is a
    lot of the reason for people saying flash under exposes.

    When one takes a shot with a digital camera the standard rule is expose to
    the right.

    If one has sky or a backlighting in ambient light then the top range of the
    camera dynamic range is often occupied due to the bright sources.

    For flash this is not the case unless there are specula reflections or
    objects that are much closer than the metered area. This makes the shots
    look under exposed compared to daylight.



    Lester Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

    "Alan Browne-" <ca> wrote in message
    news:cu2pc2$41g$gazeta.pl... 
    >
    >
    > That would be a long dragged shutter to expose background lights (city
    > backdrop) and the foreground with flash.
    >
    >
    > --
    > -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    > -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
    > -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
    > -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.[/ref]

    I thought he meant some sort of "idiot" mode on the camera, the so-called
    "PIC" or "Basic" modes. There is a "Night Portrait" mode on my 20D in that
    set, but I've never used any of them.

    --
    Skip Middleton
    http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com


    Skip Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

    "Lester Wareham" <co.uk> wrote in message
    news:4204eeb7$0$7724$zen.co.uk... 
    >
    > This background ambient light exposure should only happen in the basic
    > zones or Av modes, Tv mode should give correct exposure with no ambient
    > light fill unless the shutter speed is too low or you are in very bright
    > light. This is on P92 of the manual.
    >
    > I find the flash exposure is OK in terms of average grey.
    >
    > Test 1:
    >
    > Take a average grey card set evaluative exposure, fill the viewfinder and
    > expose in ambient only (Shot A) and Tv flash with a sufficiently high
    > shutter speed to ensure the ambient light contribution is small (Shot B).
    >
    > Check histograms, I find they are both about as expected and very similar
    > values. So the flash and ambient light metering is in agreement.
    >[/ref]

    Are you doing this with a 20D or a 10D? 'Cause I tried this, and got
    similar results with Tv as with Av and Program. I don't use any of the
    basic modes.

    --
    Skip Middleton
    http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com


    Skip Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??


    "Skip M" <net> wrote in message
    news:41cNd.29173$.. 
    >>
    >> This background ambient light exposure should only happen in the basic
    >> zones or Av modes, Tv mode should give correct exposure with no ambient
    >> light fill unless the shutter speed is too low or you are in very bright
    >> light. This is on P92 of the manual.
    >>
    >> I find the flash exposure is OK in terms of average grey.
    >>
    >> Test 1:
    >>
    >> Take a average grey card set evaluative exposure, fill the viewfinder and
    >> expose in ambient only (Shot A) and Tv flash with a sufficiently high
    >> shutter speed to ensure the ambient light contribution is small (Shot B).
    >>
    >> Check histograms, I find they are both about as expected and very similar
    >> values. So the flash and ambient light metering is in agreement.
    >>[/ref]
    >
    > Are you doing this with a 20D or a 10D? 'Cause I tried this, and got
    > similar results with Tv as with Av and Program. I don't use any of the
    > basic modes.
    >[/ref]

    Hi Skip

    Yes this with a 20D and the internal flash in very low ambient light. I
    think the ambient exposure was about 1/40sec f/5.6 on 3200 ISO for shot A.

    Shot B was 1/250 sec on Tv but at ISO 200.

    If I switched to Av the camera booted the exposure time to a noticeably long
    value at ISO 200, I guess Program would do the same, but I never use it.

    The camera metering seems to be set-up for something like the mid point of a
    6 stop range for average grey, giving at least +/-3 stops from this;
    probably a lot more.

    I used to shoot mostly slide film for colour so I am still thinking in a
    dynamic range of +/- 2.5 stops from mid grey a lot of the time but I am
    beginning to get used to the dynamic range of the camera now.

    As I say, if you want to minimise shadow noise in flash (expose to the
    right) it probably needs one or two stops of FEC if there are no specula
    highlights.

    This is not because the flash metering is wrong but because of the large
    dynamic range of the camera.

    At least this is my working theory.

    I would be very interested to see what others make of this with their own
    experiments. I will try a few other tests also. I have a nice flash meter
    somewhere that I can include in some tests.


    Lester




    Lester Guest

  19. #19

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

    "Lester Wareham" <co.uk> wrote in message
    news:4205eeef$0$4088$zen.co.uk... 
    >>
    >> Are you doing this with a 20D or a 10D? 'Cause I tried this, and got
    >> similar results with Tv as with Av and Program. I don't use any of the
    >> basic modes.
    >>[/ref]
    >
    > Hi Skip
    >
    > Yes this with a 20D and the internal flash in very low ambient light. I
    > think the ambient exposure was about 1/40sec f/5.6 on 3200 ISO for shot A.
    >
    > Shot B was 1/250 sec on Tv but at ISO 200.
    >
    > If I switched to Av the camera booted the exposure time to a noticeably
    > long value at ISO 200, I guess Program would do the same, but I never use
    > it.
    >
    > The camera metering seems to be set-up for something like the mid point of
    > a 6 stop range for average grey, giving at least +/-3 stops from this;
    > probably a lot more.
    >
    > I used to shoot mostly slide film for colour so I am still thinking in a
    > dynamic range of +/- 2.5 stops from mid grey a lot of the time but I am
    > beginning to get used to the dynamic range of the camera now.
    >
    > As I say, if you want to minimise shadow noise in flash (expose to the
    > right) it probably needs one or two stops of FEC if there are no specula
    > highlights.
    >
    > This is not because the flash metering is wrong but because of the large
    > dynamic range of the camera.
    >
    > At least this is my working theory.
    >
    > I would be very interested to see what others make of this with their own
    > experiments. I will try a few other tests also. I have a nice flash meter
    > somewhere that I can include in some tests.
    >
    >
    > Lester
    >
    >
    >
    >[/ref]
    Low ambient light is not a problem, it's when there's enough ambient light
    to get a decent exposure that the underexposure demon raises its head.
    Do you have links to those "A" and "B" shots?

    --
    Skip Middleton
    http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com


    Skip Guest

  20. #20

    Default Re: Canon 20D ??

    Skip M wrote: 
    >>
    >>
    >>That would be a long dragged shutter to expose background lights (city
    >>backdrop) and the foreground with flash.
    >>
    >>[/ref]
    >
    > I thought he meant some sort of "idiot" mode on the camera, the so-called
    > "PIC" or "Basic" modes. There is a "Night Portrait" mode on my 20D in that
    > set, but I've never used any of them.[/ref]

    It may indeed be an idiot mode that makes sure the shutter gets dragged
    for the BG. On my Maxxums, if you hold the AEL button during a flash
    shot, it will attempt to measure the ambient/BG light and set the
    shutter speed for that, and of course TTL expose the flash shot for the
    foreground. It works well most of the time, esp. of you take the
    trouble to set the flash comp properly according to the subject.

    As this typically means a 1 - 4 sec exposure, a tripod is required.

    Cheers,
    Alan


    --
    -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
    -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
    Alan Guest

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