Colour shift/washed out colours when printing from Acrobat 7 Pro

[Markus_Haenchen@adobeforums.com]

I posted this issue first in the CM forum but I pretty much nailed it to be caused by Acrobat (7.0.8 Pro, OS X 10.4.7, PPC).

When printing to my postscript colour laser printer, a Lanier 2138C (which is sold elsewhere as a Ricoh Aficio AP3800C), colours are shifted to warmer tones and become somewhat washed out.

Tested with various images and coloured boxes using RGB or CMYK. Coming from Photoshop (9.0.2) or InDesign (4.0.4) and exported or saved from there as pdfs. Saving it as an pdf/x1a, reduces the colour shift greatly (but not the washing out).

Printing from either Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator or Aperture, prints look identical and accurate. On screen, colours look identical in all four programs as well as in Acrobat no matter how the pdf is created, only when printing Acrobat deviates. For pdf/x1a changing the CM print settings in Acrobat does not affect the print-out visibly any more (i.e. switching between PS-CM or using an icc supplied for the printer or switching it off completely) for 'plain' pdfs switching CM off in Acrobat has the same positive effect as moving to a pdf/x1a.

Any idea how to print pdfs with saturated (and fully accurate) colours with Acrobat?

Best,

Markus

P.S.: Here is the link to the thread in CM forum:
<http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx/.3bc19550/2>

[pjonesCET@adobeforums.com]

Hi,

The other folks here mention occasionally for Strange Printing problems to locate some where within the Print window click on color mangement There is supposed to be a way to turn off Acrobat's ability to mange the color. Sometimes this will cure a problem.

[Markus_Haenchen@adobeforums.com]

As I mentioned, switching off CM for printing in Acrobat improves things (much smaller colour shift) in very much the same way as working with pdf/x1a files. However, both options are only semi-solutions as colours are still washed out and also slightly too warm.

[pjonesCET@adobeforums.com]

Have you tried looking at how Color management is set in The other programs and see if you can set them the same or similar in Acrobat as well.

I don't know why the Graphic artists here are not piping up with a thought.

I use Acrobat extensively in Websites I look after. But; would say I am a Graphic Artist. So I am only passing along information I've leaned here on the forum.

[MikeKazlow@adobeforums.com]

Markus,

I no little about color management a difficult but necessary process
when accurate color reproduction needed. But there is something
seriously wrong when you are including RGB and CMYK in the same
document and expecting the CMYK device to print it correctly. You are
using two different color spaces. While you may get what you are
expecting from Photoshop, it obviously cannot be guaranteed. What is
the proper output for printing RGB to a CMYK device when there is no
standard agreed upon for the RGB to CMYK conversion?

Mike

[Markus_Haenchen@adobeforums.com]

CM settings in InDesign are stock 'Europe General Purpose 2' except that I changed the RGB working space to ColorMatch RGB.
Acrobat CM settings are set correspondingly, dito for Photoshop and Illustrator. The only additional setting in Acrobat, 'Output Intent overrides working spaces', did not seem to affect things for me.

Since Illustrator does suffer from this problem, opening PDF files with it (and converting to CMYK if necessary, otherwise pure black gets lost) and printing from there is the best work-around I have found so far. However, PDF files with embedded fonts not present on my system require font substitution which changes the appearance.

Markus

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Acrobat has color management settings and also has an Output Panel in the Print dialog. There is a Color Conversion setting there. Is yours set to None when you print these PDFs?

[Markus_Haenchen@adobeforums.com]

OK, here are the full details:
The settings common to InDesign, Photoshop and Acrobat are:
Working spaces:
RGB: ColorMatch RGB
CMYK: Europe ISO Coated FOGRA 27
Grayscale: Dot Gain 15%
Engine: ACE
'Use Black Point Compensation' is selected

In Photoshop and InDesign additionally:
Colour Management Guidelines: RGB: Keep embedded
Intent: Relative Colourimetric

In Acrobat additionally:
'Output Intent Overrides Working Spaces' is selected.

When printing in Photoshop, InDesign and Acrobat:
Colour Handling: either
A: PostScript Printer Determines Colour or
B: Let InDesign/Photoshop determine Colour
In Acrobat this is set in Advanced > Colour Management > Colour Profile, where I can select between
A: Printer/PS-CM or
B: the-ICC-profile-of-my-printer or
C: Same as Source (No Colour Management)

Print-outs from A(InDesign) and A(Photoshop) look the same, as do B(InDesign) and B(Photoshop). There is a small difference between A and B for InDesign/Photoshop with A being somewhat better, B is slightly too warm (I attribute this to the fact that the ICC profile for my printer, downloaded from the web, is probably not as accurate as the one stored in my printer).

Now starting e.g. with an RGB image in Photoshop, saving it from there as a PDF and including the profiles (testfile I).
Opening I with Photoshop and printing using A, it looks quite nice.
Opening I with Acrobat and printing using A, colours are too warm and washed out.
Printing I with Acrobat using B, looks the same (too warm etc.).
Printing I with Acrobat using C, again looks the same (too warm etc.).

Second sample, same image converted into CMYK in Photoshop, saved as PDF, included the profiles (testfile II).
Opening II with Photoshop and printing using A, it looks the same as I, i.e. correct.
Opening II with Acrobat and printing using A, the same as I (too warm and washed out).
Printing II with Acrobat using B, the same (too warm and washed out).
Printing II with Acrobat using C, colours are now almost correct (only a tiny bit too warm) but still washed out.

When I do not include the profiles upon saving the pdf in Photoshop, call it sample II+, printing it in Acrobat using A, B or C gives the same (improved) result as II using C (which make perfect sense).

[Markus_Haenchen@adobeforums.com]

Mike wrote:
"But there is something seriously wrong when you are including RGB and CMYK in the same document and expecting the CMYK device to print it correctly."

I agree that this should be avoided. And I did so ONLY to test my CM, and between Photoshop and InDesign in works perfectly, RGB and CMYK boxes look exactly the same on screen and in print. They even look the same on screen in Acrobat.

Mike wrote:
"What is the proper output for printing RGB to a CMYK device when there is no standard agreed upon for the RGB to CMYK conversion?"

By defining working spaces and conversion methods in Photoshop and InDesign and using this information when printing (using method B, see my previous post) or by handing over this information to the printer (method A) I am using standards for the conversion.