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CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables? - Macromedia Dreamweaver

My suggestion is to not care about being frowned upon. You will always find CSS snobs who will look down at you because of using tables. Who cares? Are they paying you? You are paid to make the site work, and if you can make it work with tables, your duty is to the one who is paying you. "Arpana Sanjanwala" <com> wrote in message news:bg6esa$lev$macromedia.com... ...

  1. #1

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    My suggestion is to not care about being frowned upon. You will always find
    CSS snobs who will look down at you because of using tables. Who cares? Are
    they paying you? You are paid to make the site work, and if you can make it
    work with tables, your duty is to the one who is paying you.

    "Arpana Sanjanwala" <com> wrote in message
    news:bg6esa$lev$macromedia.com... 


    middletree Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    By the way, when I said CSS snobs, I don't mean that all CSS proponent are
    snobs. I mean that there are a few, just like there are Mac snobs, movie
    snobs, music snobs, etc., who look down on people who are doing the popular
    or easy thing, instead of their cutting-edge way of doing things. They are
    not happy unless they are putting others down. Most CSS proponents are not
    that way.


    "middletree" <com> wrote in message
    news:bg6fj8$mop$macromedia.com... 
    find 
    Are 
    it [/ref]
    Iframe 
    >
    >[/ref]


    middletree Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    It's perfectly fine to use layers or tables (or a combination of them) when
    building a web site.

    There was a time when some "experts" would malign tables, but they have
    since become a little smarter.

    So, go ahead and use whatever fits your job!

    --
    irvin
    ----------------------------------------
    http://www.pixel69.com



    "Arpana Sanjanwala" <com> wrote in message
    news:bg6esa$lev$macromedia.com... 


    irvin Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    "Gary White" <please> wrote in message 


    That's not a "caveat". That's just a contrived scenario.

    Under normal cirstances, using layers and tables, alone or in any
    combination, poses ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS.


    --
    irvin
    ----------------------------------------
    http://www.pixel69.com


    irvin Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    irvin:

    It is a caveat in my book. It's something to beware of - that's what
    caveats mean, no?

    Your answer is, of course, absolutely correct, assuming that the user KNOWS
    how to use both tools.

    I can think of other layer/table caveats, too, like don't put layers into
    tables. Or don't put percent sized tables into layers. All of these are
    contrived, but each of them accounts for a rather large percentage of the
    layer/table posts on this forum every day....

    --
    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
    Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
    ==================
    news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver - THE BEST WAY TO GET
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    "irvin" <com> wrote in message
    news:bg6oag$9jr$macromedia.com... 
    >
    >
    > That's not a "caveat". That's just a contrived scenario.
    >
    > Under normal cirstances, using layers and tables, alone or in any
    > combination, poses ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS.
    >
    >
    > --
    > irvin
    > ----------------------------------------
    > http://www.pixel69.com
    >
    >[/ref]


    Murray Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    There's a very subtle detail you're missing, Murray:

    A "Caveat", is basically a warning about certain practice. In the case of
    putting layers in table, the act of putting layers in tables is the
    practice. And the problems that arise are directly related TO PUTTING LAYERS
    IN A TABLE. You CAN'T put layers in tables WITHOUT problems arising.

    In my post, I only advice the free use of layers or tables alone or in any
    combination.

    This piece of advice doesn't have any caveats, as its practice when building
    websites presents absolutely no problems under normal cirstances. YOU CAN
    USE LAYERS AND/OR TABLES WITHOUT PROBLEMS.

    The problem arises when you start tweaking alignments, positioning, etc.
    But, by then, any problems that might arise have nothing to do with the
    original advice.

    ****
    If the above is not true, then, EVERYTHING merits a "caveat":

    ADVICE: "Include the <body> tag in every web page you design"

    CAVEAT: "If you set the body's background color to BLUE, your page will be
    BLUE"

    That's the contrived scenario Gary came up with.



    --
    irvin
    ----------------------------------------
    http://www.pixel69.com



    "Murray *TMM*" <com> wrote in message
    news:bg6om8$a6e$macromedia.com... 
    KNOWS 
    > >
    > >
    > > That's not a "caveat". That's just a contrived scenario.
    > >
    > > Under normal cirstances, using layers and tables, alone or in any
    > > combination, poses ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS.
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > > irvin
    > > ----------------------------------------
    > > http://www.pixel69.com
    > >
    > >[/ref]
    >
    >[/ref]


    irvin Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    It's not contrived at all. Perhaps you ought to look the word up. Perhaps you
    ought also to look up how often there are posts from people saying, "help! my
    layers are moving!," and how many time Murray or Gary or I or some other person
    has to explain to them that layers don't move, the centered %-width tables
    they've got beneath them move.

    There are many problems using layers and tables together and I can't image with
    your experience you think that there are not! And those caveats (look it up:
    caveat = proviso, warning) which Murray and Gary brought up are extremely
    relevant, especially to someone who isn't used to putting layers & tables in
    the same layout.

    --
    --
    DiMa
    --------------------
    WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to your
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    "irvin" <com> wrote in message
    news:bg6poq$bmf$macromedia.com... 
    > KNOWS 
    > >
    > >[/ref]
    >
    >[/ref]


    DiMa Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    > There are problems using layers and tables together FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW 

    Exactly. And how many people asking questions on this newsgroup regarding
    whether or not it's ok to use tables and divs together know what they are
    doing??

    --
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    DiMa
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    http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/etiquette.htm
    DiMa Design > From Lines...to Designs
    http://www.dimadesign.net



    DiMa Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    I'm glad you finally see my point: it has nothing to do with the technology.

    There are no caveats.


    It has to do with the operators...




    :-)




    --
    irvin
    ----------------------------------------
    http://www.pixel69.com



    "DiMa" <net> wrote in message
    news:bg6vss$k9b$macromedia.com... [/ref]
    KNOW 
    >
    > Exactly. And how many people asking questions on this newsgroup regarding
    > whether or not it's ok to use tables and divs together know what they are
    > doing??
    >
    > --
    > --
    > DiMa
    > --------------------
    > WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to[/ref]
    your 
    http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:macromedia.dreamwea v
    er 


    irvin Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    You're impossible. And full of crp, too.

    --
    --
    DiMa
    --------------------
    WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to your
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    DiMa Design > From Lines...to Designs
    http://www.dimadesign.net


    "irvin" <com> wrote in message
    news:bg727s$nas$macromedia.com... [/ref]
    > KNOW 
    > >
    > > Exactly. And how many people asking questions on this newsgroup regarding
    > > whether or not it's ok to use tables and divs together know what they are
    > > doing??
    > >
    > > --
    > > --
    > > DiMa
    > > --------------------
    > > WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to[/ref]
    > your 
    > http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:macromedia.dreamwea v
    > er 
    >
    >[/ref]


    DiMa Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    "DiMa" <net> wrote in message
    news:bg72ce$nff$macromedia.com... 



    :-)


    --
    irvin
    ----------------------------------------
    http://www.pixel69.com




    irvin Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    Uh, please dont frown on me for intruding, but for beginners like myself, tables and layers and their positioning are confusing and the advice from Gary is very helpful. I appreciate that some people take the time to explain these concepts. Macromedia's support tech notes have some good points about tables, what other resources are there?

    Michael




    Steash Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    Us :) We're your best resource, really. If you'd like to have a look at the
    "Layer Laws", Patty covers them pretty well here:
    http://www.thepattysite.com/layer_laws.cfm

    --
    --
    DiMa
    --------------------
    WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to your
    posts:
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    For Answers, check here first:
    http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:macromedia.dreamwea ver
    http://www.macromedia.com/support/dreamweaver/technotes.html
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    http://www.dreamweaverFAQ.com

    http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/etiquette.htm
    DiMa Design > From Lines...to Designs
    http://www.dimadesign.net


    "Steash" <com> wrote in message
    news:bg79t6$39g$macromedia.com... 
    tables and layers and their positioning are confusing and the advice from Gary
    is very helpful. I appreciate that some people take the time to explain these
    concepts. Macromedia's support tech notes have some good points about tables,
    what other resources are there? 


    DiMa Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    You hit it right on the nose, regarding these CSS snobs, of which I call
    fanatics. And I am glad you pointed out the Mac snobs as well as that is a
    clear picture that everyone knows so well.

    Any, I got tired of this and put a page offering a rebuttal to all those
    extremist CSS sites..actually there really is just one to two....and they
    seem good at getting mindless robots to follow.

    Tables versus Full CSS Integration
    (i.e. replacing all <table> tags with <div> tags and CSS positioning)
    http://www.decloak.com/Products/Dreamweaver/NestedTemplates/TablesOrLayers.aspx


    dc


    "middletree" <com> wrote in message
    news:bg6g7u$nuk$macromedia.com... 
    popular 
    not 
    > find 
    > Are 
    > it [/ref]
    > Iframe 
    > >
    > >[/ref]
    >
    >[/ref]


    dc Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    Do you ever goto sleep? Seems like you here 24/7.
     

    Hundreds of <td> doesn't seem the norm in a typical web page that written
    correctly. BUT you are right, I haven't seen a Layout page because I don't
    use that to do my layout in the first place as I know that will create
    "hundreds" of <td> tags.
    The first time I saw NetObject Fusion (or something like that) do that same
    thing years ago, I knew that was wrong and really messy.

    But with a correctly and efficiently written web page, let's do a
    performance test and see if the user notices or if the CPU load is
    significantly less or even bandwidth.



    This Netscape / ESPN Article

    http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2003/espn-interview/01/

    talks about ESPN using CSS and saving like 2 terabytes of data bandwidth or
    50k of data per page or something like that

    Now, if you look closer and on Page 2 of this article(3rd paragraph), the
    ESPN guy starts talking about removing all these <font> tags.

    "...making everything pull dynamically from our CMS, and then when new
    content needs to be added, our editors often find themselves adding simple
    HTML like <p> tags and <font> tags to unstyled content. "

    NOW, this leads me to ask, where did all that 50K come from? The font tags
    or removing the <table><td> etc. tags. I say the font tags as one table
    full of baseball stats that uses a <font> tag for each and every number can
    make a big part of that 50k.


    Paragraph 12
    "This solution works fine for now but it does not exactly put a smile on my
    face. "

    Paragraphs 14 and 15 talks
    W3C Validation
    ....all that W3C stuff and how irrelevant it is when only like 6% of site
    validate...I say less than that.


    IF you only look at Page One of this Article, you would think CSS is the
    coming wave. Then if you look at Page Two....you see a totally different
    story.....the interviewed person was just nice about it....a lot more
    professional sounding than me.





    dc
    decloak, Inc.
    http://www.decloak.com/
    __________________________________________________ ___________
    Multi-Navigation Templates and Menus
    http://www.decloak.com/Products/Dreamweaver/NestedTemplates/




    "Murray *TMM*" <com> wrote in message
    news:bg8cco$ofe$macromedia.com... 
    up 
    presenatation?" 
    presentation, 

    CSS. 
    see 
    sites) 
    at 
    off 
    tags 
    of 
    CSS [/ref]
    is [/ref]
    they 
    >[/ref]
    http://www.decloak.com/Products/Dreamweaver/NestedTemplates/TablesOrLayers.aspx [/ref]
    > are [/ref][/ref]
    movie 
    > > popular [/ref]
    > are [/ref][/ref]
    are [/ref][/ref]
    always [/ref]
    > cares? [/ref]
    > make [/ref]
    > designed 
    > >
    > >[/ref]
    >
    >[/ref]


    dc Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    I'm no guru and don't claim to be, but...

    It seems to me that before anyone rants and raves about something, or offers what some might think to be a professional, educated opinion, they should first make sure that their own house is in order no matter what method or technology is used.

    http://tinyurl.com/ii33
    http://tinyurl.com/ii2i
    http://tinyurl.com/ii2r

    --

    Dave
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    If I were half as smart as people think I am...
    I'd be twice as smart as I was before I forgot everything.
    (Official victim of CRAFT Syndrome)
    David Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    David:

    Yeah - that's really a good point. This code is rather 'chilling' -

    </font></span><font size="2" face="Geneva,
    Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Note:
    Dreamweaver calls these &lt;div&gt; tags setups,
    &quot;Layers&quot;</font></td>
    <td rowspan="2">&nbsp;&nbsp;</td>
    <td width="1" rowspan="2"
    bgcolor="#000000"></td>
    <td rowspan="2">&nbsp;&nbsp;</td>
    <td rowspan="2" valign="top"><table width="100%"
    border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
    <tr>
    <td><img
    src="images/Tables_Versus_CSS-01.gif" alt="extremist CSS" width="142"
    height="498">&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td><br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td><img
    src="images/Tables_Versus_CSS-02.gif" alt="ted CSS" width="151"
    height="378"></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td><br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>


    --
    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
    Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
    ==================
    news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver - THE BEST WAY TO GET
    ANSWERS
    ==================
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    http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
    ==================

    "David R. Wheeler" <spam> wrote in message
    news:bg8fm8$1s9$macromedia.com...
    I'm no guru and don't claim to be, but...

    It seems to me that before anyone rants and raves about something, or offers
    what some might think to be a professional, educated opinion, they should
    first make sure that their own house is in order no matter what method or
    technology is used.

    http://tinyurl.com/ii33
    http://tinyurl.com/ii2i
    http://tinyurl.com/ii2r

    --

    Dave
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    If I were half as smart as people think I am...
    I'd be twice as smart as I was before I forgot everything.
    (Official victim of CRAFT Syndrome)


    Murray Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    Yeah, and the amusing part (to me anyway) is that most of the validation and accessibility errors are caused by all the nested tables.;)

    Oh, and a couple of JS errors as well...


    http://www.decloak.com/timerstuff.js
    Unknown context
    Syntax error while loading (line 173) 
    --^


    http://www.decloak.com/Products/Dreamweaver/NestedTemplates/TablesOrLayers.aspx
    Event thread: onload
    Error:
    name: ReferenceError
    message: Statement on line 1: Reference to undefined variable: No such variable 'startclock'
    Backtrace:
    In unknown script
    startclock();
    At unknown location
    {event handler oline}

    --

    Dave
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    If I were half as smart as people think I am...
    I'd be twice as smart as I was before I forgot everything.
    (Official victim of CRAFT Syndrome)
    David Guest

  19. #19

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    "Gary White" <please> wrote in 

    I don't think you're qualified to give me any sort of advice, Gary...


    :-)



    --
    irvin
    ----------------------------------------
    http://www.pixel69.com


    irvin Guest

  20. #20

    Default Re: CSS Based websites - are there any scrollers that don't use tables?

    Two points:

    1. When you post a tinyurl link, I for one will not click it. If you want
    the same effect, please consider using www.makeashorterlink.com. The
    difference is that the latter will take you to a page which gives you 5
    seconds before it forwards you to the destination page, and it displays the
    real URL for you. This gives you a chance to know where it wants to take you
    before you go there, and gives you time to opt out. Using tinyurl, someone
    could identify themselves as someone trusted, such as yourself or Murray or
    Ptty, and then put a link in there to a malicious page.

    2. DC backed up my statement with some less-than-concrete arguments. That
    doesn't mean my original point isn't right. The original post had a line
    which indicated worry about tables being "frowned upon". There is some peer
    pressure among web designers, especially some in this forum, to go CSS all
    the way for layouts. I am not talking about CSS for fonts, colors, etc. I
    am talking about pressure to not use tables, which are still legitimate
    code.

    I posted an opinion that he shouldn't worry about being frowned upon by
    anyone other than who is paying him. I stand by that statement.



    "David R. Wheeler" <spam> wrote in message
    news:bg8fm8$1s9$macromedia.com...
    I'm no guru and don't claim to be, but...

    It seems to me that before anyone rants and raves about something, or offers
    what some might think to be a professional, educated opinion, they should
    first make sure that their own house is in order no matter what method or
    technology is used.

    http://tinyurl.com/ii33
    http://tinyurl.com/ii2i
    http://tinyurl.com/ii2r

    --

    Dave
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    If I were half as smart as people think I am...
    I'd be twice as smart as I was before I forgot everything.
    (Official victim of CRAFT Syndrome)


    middletree Guest

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