Database and asp question

[William E Hatto]

Hi 1 and all,


(Thanks to Bob Burrows directing me to this newsgroup ;-) )

Having played with and now 'reasonably' comfortable with asp and vbscript I
am now venturing into the land of recordsets and databases.

I need to create a web based solution that displays a list of items. These
items are categorised into 4 groups (These groups do not change, the items
do). Items are moved between these groups. Items in 2 of these groups need
to be 'ranked' from highest importance at the top to the least at the
bottom.

This page is shared between a small office using a mix Mac and PC's. All
users can view, some can add, one user determines the priority. Hence the
need for a web based solution. The viewing updating and sorting of items
does and can happen concurrently.

I have done this using a text file but I understand using a DB file will be
more effeicent and robust. Is using a DB the right way to go and how would I
accomplish it.

My current solution is;
Reading the list it in as 4 arrays from a text file, displaying it on a web
page form. A number can be entered in a text box next to each item. When
submitted the list is resorted based on the numbers in the text box of each
item and written back to the text file.


Many thanx in adavnce

Cheers, Bill.

[Bob Barrows]

William E Hatto wrote:

> Thanks Bob,
>
> I'll refine the OP a bit more.
>
> This list (4 in fact, of which some items are moved between) of items
> is shared between 6 people using a mix Mac and PC's. All can view,
> some can add with one user determining the priority. Hence the need
> for a web basewd solution.
>
> Is it better to use a DB or text file?
>

A database will handle concurrency (multiple people doing updates to the
data simultaneously) issues better than using a text file, although with
only a couple people being able to maintain data, concurrency may not be a
huge issue. So the deciding factors will be:
1. Is what you are doing now working? Any problems with concurrency? Are
users being prevented from making changes to the data due to other users
making their changes? If not, then, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

2. Scalability - the text file method will not scale well, so, if you are
faced with the prospect of adding more users, or if the amount of data could
possibly get much greater than what you are now handling, then you do need
to consider moving to a database.

Since we are back to needing to persist the rank order so it will apply to
all users, if you decide use a database, you will need to use the Rank
column I described in my previous reply. Regarding your objection that all
the Rank numbers would need to be re-entered if one row's rank changed, this
is not the case: you do not need to use 1,2,3, ... for the rank numbers. You
can use 100,200,300, ... . If you need to move the 300 row to before the 200
row, simply change its rank to 250. If you are changing the rank a lot, use
1000,2000,3000, ... .

I see that you've posted to .inetserver.asp.db as well, so I've crossposted
this reply there as well as setting Follow-ups for this thread to that
group.

HTH,
Bob Barrows

--
Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
Please reply to the newsgroup. This email account is my spam trap so I
don't check it very often. If you must reply off-line, then remove the
"NO SPAM"

[William E Hatto]

Thanks again Bob,

There has been a couple of instances over the last 6 months where all the
info in the text file has just disappeared, requiring me to manually rebuild
it. I have looked at the code and had just put it down to weaknesses in
using a text file. I am thinking about using a DB because i have heard it is
more efficient and robust.

Is that a fair assumption ?

Cheers Bill.


"Bob Barrows" <reb01501@NOyahoo.SPAMcom> wrote in message
news:%23cj1EFn4DHA.3896@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

> William E Hatto wrote:

> > Thanks Bob,
> >
> > I'll refine the OP a bit more.
> >
> > This list (4 in fact, of which some items are moved between) of items
> > is shared between 6 people using a mix Mac and PC's. All can view,
> > some can add with one user determining the priority. Hence the need
> > for a web basewd solution.
> >
> > Is it better to use a DB or text file?
> >

>
> A database will handle concurrency (multiple people doing updates to the
> data simultaneously) issues better than using a text file, although with
> only a couple people being able to maintain data, concurrency may not be a
> huge issue. So the deciding factors will be:
> 1. Is what you are doing now working? Any problems with concurrency? Are
> users being prevented from making changes to the data due to other users
> making their changes? If not, then, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
>
> 2. Scalability - the text file method will not scale well, so, if you are
> faced with the prospect of adding more users, or if the amount of data

could

> possibly get much greater than what you are now handling, then you do need
> to consider moving to a database.
>
> Since we are back to needing to persist the rank order so it will apply to
> all users, if you decide use a database, you will need to use the Rank
> column I described in my previous reply. Regarding your objection that all
> the Rank numbers would need to be re-entered if one row's rank changed,

this

> is not the case: you do not need to use 1,2,3, ... for the rank numbers.

You

> can use 100,200,300, ... . If you need to move the 300 row to before the

200

> row, simply change its rank to 250. If you are changing the rank a lot,

use

> 1000,2000,3000, ... .
>
> I see that you've posted to .inetserver.asp.db as well, so I've

crossposted

> this reply there as well as setting Follow-ups for this thread to that
> group.
>
> HTH,
> Bob Barrows
>
> --
> Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
> Please reply to the newsgroup. This email account is my spam trap so I
> don't check it very often. If you must reply off-line, then remove the
> "NO SPAM"
>
>

[William E Hatto]

Sorry Bob,

I'll just use this group now :-)



"Bob Barrows" <reb01501@NOyahoo.SPAMcom> wrote in message
news:%23cj1EFn4DHA.3896@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

> William E Hatto wrote:

> > Thanks Bob,
> >
> > I'll refine the OP a bit more.
> >
> > This list (4 in fact, of which some items are moved between) of items
> > is shared between 6 people using a mix Mac and PC's. All can view,
> > some can add with one user determining the priority. Hence the need
> > for a web basewd solution.
> >
> > Is it better to use a DB or text file?
> >

>
> A database will handle concurrency (multiple people doing updates to the
> data simultaneously) issues better than using a text file, although with
> only a couple people being able to maintain data, concurrency may not be a
> huge issue. So the deciding factors will be:
> 1. Is what you are doing now working? Any problems with concurrency? Are
> users being prevented from making changes to the data due to other users
> making their changes? If not, then, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
>
> 2. Scalability - the text file method will not scale well, so, if you are
> faced with the prospect of adding more users, or if the amount of data

could

> possibly get much greater than what you are now handling, then you do need
> to consider moving to a database.
>
> Since we are back to needing to persist the rank order so it will apply to
> all users, if you decide use a database, you will need to use the Rank
> column I described in my previous reply. Regarding your objection that all
> the Rank numbers would need to be re-entered if one row's rank changed,

this

> is not the case: you do not need to use 1,2,3, ... for the rank numbers.

You

> can use 100,200,300, ... . If you need to move the 300 row to before the

200

> row, simply change its rank to 250. If you are changing the rank a lot,

use

> 1000,2000,3000, ... .
>
> I see that you've posted to .inetserver.asp.db as well, so I've

crossposted

> this reply there as well as setting Follow-ups for this thread to that
> group.
>
> HTH,
> Bob Barrows
>
> --
> Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
> Please reply to the newsgroup. This email account is my spam trap so I
> don't check it very often. If you must reply off-line, then remove the
> "NO SPAM"
>
>

[Aaron Bertrand [MVP]]

> using a text file. I am thinking about using a DB because i have heard it
is

> more efficient and robust.
>
> Is that a fair assumption ?

IMHO, yes. Though if you choose Access, your gains will be minimal. :-)

--
Aaron Bertrand
SQL Server MVP
[url]http://www.aspfaq.com/[/url]

[William E Hatto]

"Aaron Bertrand [MVP]" <aaron@TRASHaspfaq.com> wrote in message
news:%23EPl1%23q4DHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

> > using a text file. I am thinking about using a DB because i have heard

it

> is

> > more efficient and robust.
> >
> > Is that a fair assumption ?

>
> IMHO, yes. Though if you choose Access, your gains will be minimal. :-)

Why?

For the size of this project Access is all that I have to use.

Bill

>
> --
> Aaron Bertrand
> SQL Server MVP
> [url]http://www.aspfaq.com/[/url]
>
>

[Aaron Bertrand [MVP]]

> > IMHO, yes. Though if you choose Access, your gains will be minimal.
:-)

>
> Why?

[url]http://www.aspfaq.com/2195[/url]

--
Aaron Bertrand
SQL Server MVP
[url]http://www.aspfaq.com/[/url]

[Bob Barrows]

William E Hatto wrote:

> "Aaron Bertrand [MVP]" <aaron@TRASHaspfaq.com> wrote in message
> news:%23EPl1%23q4DHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

>>> using a text file. I am thinking about using a DB because i have
>>> heard it is more efficient and robust.
>>>
>>> Is that a fair assumption ?

>>
>> IMHO, yes. Though if you choose Access, your gains will be minimal.
>> :-)

>
> Why?
>
> For the size of this project Access is all that I have to use.
>

While I agree with many of the points in Aaron's article, I am not as
strongly biased against Access as he is. We have had a small intranet
application using an Access backend going strong for the past four years.
What's more, the developer who created that app was new to asp and therefore
took the shortcut of using GenericDb ([url]www.genericdb.com[/url]) to create it, so
the coding practices were not the best ("Select *", opening a recordset
containing all the rows in the table just to get the field names, closing it
and reopening it to get the data, using recordsets to do data maintenance
.... I could go on). Even so, the app has worked very well for its small
number of users (up to 20 - at most about 10 concurrently). I am sure, with
proper asp/ado coding practices implemented, we could double that user base
if we had to.

So, I do disagree with the " ... gains will be minimal" statement. Using any
rdbms, even Jet (Access) as opposed to a text file, will greatly increase
the integrity of your data and the scalability of your application.

That said, my rdbms of choice is SQL Server, which will handle with ease the
burden that would tax Jet to its straining point.

HTH,
Bob Barrows
--
Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
Please reply to the newsgroup. This email account is my spam trap so I
don't check it very often. If you must reply off-line, then remove the
"NO SPAM"

[Phillip Windell]

"Aaron Bertrand [MVP]" <aaron@TRASHaspfaq.com> wrote in message
news:#EPl1#q4DHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

> > more efficient and robust.
> >
> > Is that a fair assumption ?

>
> IMHO, yes. Though if you choose Access, your gains will be minimal.

:-)


That's a bit of an exaggeration to the negative. SQL is certainly more
powerful than Access, but but Access is much better than a text file
and many of its weaknesses can be compensated for by the way it is
deployed.

--

Phillip Windell [CCNA, MVP, MCP]
WAND-TV (ABC Affiliate)
[url]www.wandtv.com[/url]

[Phillip Windell]

"Bob Barrows" <reb01501@NOyahoo.SPAMcom> wrote in message
news:OkZY8W04DHA.1504@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

> So, I do disagree with the " ... gains will be minimal" statement.

Using any

> rdbms, even Jet (Access) as opposed to a text file, will greatly

increase

> the integrity of your data and the scalability of your application.
>
> That said, my rdbms of choice is SQL Server, which will handle with

ease the

> burden that would tax Jet to its straining point.

I think I'd go with Access in this case, unless he already had a copy
of SQL Server running and was already familiar with managing,
maintaining, and developing with it.

--

Phillip Windell [CCNA, MVP, MCP]
WAND-TV (ABC Affiliate)
[url]www.wandtv.com[/url]

[William E Hatto]

Many thanks to all,

I will be back once I do a bit more reading and studying. I'll definately
have more questions.

Cheers, Bill.


"Phillip Windell" <none> wrote in message
news:eDE9okB5DHA.2412@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

> "Bob Barrows" <reb01501@NOyahoo.SPAMcom> wrote in message
> news:OkZY8W04DHA.1504@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

> > So, I do disagree with the " ... gains will be minimal" statement.

> Using any

> > rdbms, even Jet (Access) as opposed to a text file, will greatly

> increase

> > the integrity of your data and the scalability of your application.
> >
> > That said, my rdbms of choice is SQL Server, which will handle with

> ease the

> > burden that would tax Jet to its straining point.

>
> I think I'd go with Access in this case, unless he already had a copy
> of SQL Server running and was already familiar with managing,
> maintaining, and developing with it.
>
> --
>
> Phillip Windell [CCNA, MVP, MCP]
> WAND-TV (ABC Affiliate)
> [url]www.wandtv.com[/url]
>
>

[Aaron Bertrand - MVP]

> > IMHO, yes. Though if you choose Access, your gains will be minimal.

> :-)
>
>
> That's a bit of an exaggeration to the negative. SQL is certainly more
> powerful than Access, but but Access is much better than a text file

I agree, however note that I said "minimal," not "the empty set."

[Bullschmidt]

Here is something I put together about ASP that hopefully might help
somehow.

You and others can have access to a database hosted on the Web from any
location that has a browser with an Internet connection.

The Web database concept makes sense if you and your people want to do
work in various locations in or outside the office and still be
"plugged" in.

For example you could have employees enter timesheets or have sales reps
log their contacts. Or perhaps you'd like customers to be able to check
the status of their orders online without having to call the company.

If you want a Web database, typically what would happen is that a
database such as Access or MySQL (basically just consisting of tables)
would be put on the Web.

Then "dynamic" Web pages (actually ASP pages which include VBScript,
HTML, and/or JavaScript) would be created acting like the old desktop
database's queries, forms, and reports to access the database - all
hosted on a Web Server.

Dynamic Web pages are similar in many ways to regular HTML pages. But
they are "live" because the user can read from and write to information
in the database. An example where you can login and add, edit, or view
fictional customers and invoices is at
[url]http://www.bullschmidt.com/login.asp[/url]

Not all Web hosts will handle dynamic Web pages but many do. The Web
hosts that can handle ASP pages usually have a Windows 2000 operating
system running an IIS Web server.

Here are a few good ASP sites:
o ASP101 Samples - [url]http://www.asp101.com/samples[/url]
o W3Schools ASP Tutorial - [url]http://www.w3schools.com/asp[/url]
o Microsoft VBScript Language Reference -
[url]http://msdn.microsoft.com/scripting/default.htm?/scripting/VBScript/doc/[/url]
vbscripttoc.htm

And the following newsgroup is good:
microsoft.public.inetserver.asp.general

Or for a "quick and dirty" generic ASP open source solution to putting
databases on the Web that just requires setting up a configuration page
for each table or query and uploading the database to the Web as long as
there is an autonumber field in each table (and you'll probably also
separately want to create login capabilities), perhaps try something
like this:
GenericDB by Eli Robillard
[url]http://www.genericdb.com[/url] and then click on the Tips link to see an
example

And, yes, having a Sort field is often something I do too when something
more natural like alphabetical doesn't work well with some data.

Best regards,
J. Paul Schmidt, Freelance ASP Web Developer
[url]http://www.Bullschmidt.com[/url]
ASP Design Tips, ASP Web Database Demo, Free ASP Bar Chart Tool...


*** Sent via Developersdex [url]http://www.developersdex.com[/url] ***
Don't just participate in USENET...get rewarded for it!