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??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal - Mac Applications & Software

A) When logged into VMS 7.2-1 with Telnet from the Mac OS X Terminal: In the command line, 1) the DELETE Key backspaces one character but doesn't delete the character. 2) the cursor also backspaces into the Prompt. The DELETE key functions correctly in the VMS Editor. B) When logged into Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 (Rev. 732); Fri Feb 21 10:23:12 CET 2003. the DELETE key functions correctly. QUESTION: How do I get the DELETE Key to function properly with VMS?...

  1. #1

    Default ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    A) When logged into VMS 7.2-1 with Telnet from the Mac OS X Terminal:

    In the command line,

    1) the DELETE Key backspaces one character but doesn't delete the
    character.
    2) the cursor also backspaces into the Prompt.

    The DELETE key functions correctly in the VMS Editor.

    B) When logged into
    Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 (Rev. 732); Fri Feb 21 10:23:12 CET 2003.

    the DELETE key functions correctly.

    QUESTION:

    How do I get the DELETE Key to function properly with VMS?
    Hans Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:42:21 +0200,
    Hans Aus (uni-wuerzburg.de) wrote: 

    It has been a decade since I used VMS, so I don't remember the VMS
    equivalent of the Unix stty command, but that would be the *correct*
    way of fixing the problem.

    As a temporary fix. Under Terminal, go to "Window Settings", select
    "Emulation", and click on "Delete key sends backspace". That will fix
    your problem in the VMS shell.
     

    It may however break the use of the delete key in the VMS editor. This
    really should be fixed by keymapping on the VMS side.

    Beverly
    --
    Bev A. Kupf
    "The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer
    Bev Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <mimnet.northwestern.edu>,
    "Bev A. Kupf" <net> wrote:
     
    >
    > It has been a decade since I used VMS, so I don't remember the VMS
    > equivalent of the Unix stty command, but that would be the *correct*
    > way of fixing the problem.
    >
    > As a temporary fix. Under Terminal, go to "Window Settings", select
    > "Emulation", and click on "Delete key sends backspace". That will fix
    > your problem in the VMS shell.

    >
    > It may however break the use of the delete key in the VMS editor. This
    > really should be fixed by keymapping on the VMS side.
    >
    > Beverly[/ref]

    Bev,

    Thanks for your quick reply. I'll try our VMSbox again the next time I'm
    in the office.

    However, if I check "Delete Key sends backspace" the result on the
    Unixbox (reachable from home) is:

    kkk^H^H^H^H
    Hans Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:57:39 +0200,
    Hans Aus (uni-wuerzburg.de) wrote: 

    Yes, I expected that. You'll have to use two separate settings files
    of each of the two computers -- one for VMS and one for Tru64. I wish
    I could remember what the VMS term setting command was to fix the
    backspace<->delete bugaboo.

    Beverly

    --
    Bev A. Kupf
    "The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer
    Bev Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <mimnet.northwestern.edu>, "Bev A. Kupf" <net> writes: 

    You can't remember it because there isn't any. The only options
    you have are to control it at the client side or to use an X11
    based terminal emulator which will allow the VMS system to use
    xmodmap.

    Bob Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <encompasserve.org>,
    nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:

    .... The only options 

    But Bob - why does the delete key work in non-X11 terminal programs such
    as VersaTerm and Kermit - without xmodmap?

    We've used VersaTerm on pre-X MacOS since the beginning of Mac (almost)
    and never had to set any extra options in VMS. Unfortunately, Synergy is
    not porting VersaTerm to MacOSX.
    Hans Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    As a side note, we are adding a new set terminal command and terminal
    attribute so that the user can select BACKSPACE == DELETE. That is, treat
    backspace (^H) as a rubout as well as delete as a rubout. I think it's in
    V7.3-2, I know it will be in the IA64 release (dunno if it made it into
    7.3-2 offhand). The function key to get to the start of the current line
    will still work normally even when this mode is set.


    "Bob Koehler" <nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message
    news:encompasserve.org... 
    Kupf" <net> writes: 
    >
    > You can't remember it because there isn't any. The only options
    > you have are to control it at the client side or to use an X11
    > based terminal emulator which will allow the VMS system to use
    > xmodmap.
    >[/ref]


    Fred Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <G2S3b.3784$cpqcorp.net>,
    "Fred Kleinsorge" <zko.dec.com> wrote:
     


    Fred, that's both interesting and good news.

    Is there (or will there be) a patch for Open VMS 7.2-1?
    Hans Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <rz.uni-wuerzburg.de>,
    Hans Aus <uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:
     
    >[/ref]
    Fred, another thought - What code sequence does the Terminal have to
    send in order to have the delete key work properly on the VMS host? If I
    pass this code on to the MacTelnet or iTerm/Mac folks, perhaps someone
    will take pity on us and add this as an option.
    Hans Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <rz.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Hans
    Aus <uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:
     
    > >[/ref]
    > Fred, another thought - What code sequence does the Terminal have to
    > send in order to have the delete key work properly on the VMS host? If I
    > pass this code on to the MacTelnet or iTerm/Mac folks, perhaps someone
    > will take pity on us and add this as an option.[/ref]

    If you (original poster) are using terminal on Mac OS X, to telnet or
    ssh to VMS, simply choose Window Settings..-> Emulation and make sure
    'delete sends backspace' is unchecked. It then sends an octal 177, like
    a proper terminal should. [1]

    If you are using Xterm with Mac OS X X11 beta you can set it up in your
    ..initrc or, by ctrl-clicking or ctrl-opt-clicking (sorry, this Mac I'm
    using does not have X11 to correct all my memory errors) you can alter
    a pop-up menu to not use backspace for delete.

    PS I still have not been able to convince terminal in a Mac Powerbook
    to do sensible things to send function keys > F12 nor the LK4**
    auxiliary keypad keys.
    If anyone knows how..? I can do it with NCSA telnet in OS9 but terminal
    in OS X has me snookered.

    [1] speaking of memory errors, I had to get my teco book out to find a
    way of confirming that VMS saw a 0177 when delete was typed on the mac.
    It had spider webs on it. (^t==$$ then the next character typed is
    shown in octal) I thought all that knowledge was in my spinal column if
    not my fingers! Now let's see what happens if you type *alzheimers$$ ?
    FNF File not found
    Yikes! it's recursive!
    Elliott Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <rz.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Hans Aus <uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:
     

    Presumably an Ascii <DEL> character.

    The idea that a key labeled Delete would send something other than <DEL>
    is strange, but perhaps those terminal emulators are mimicing Microsoft.
    Larry Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <300820031509409880%co.uk>, Elliott Roper <co.uk> writes:
     

    I have not been able to convince Terminal on MacOS X to send the proper
    keys for PF1-PF4, although it did the lower keypad keys for me OK. I use
    those PF keys extensively for ANUNEWS, so I am back to OS 9.1.
    Larry Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <encompasserve.org>, Larry Kilgallen
    <net> wrote:
     

    That's easy! F1 through F4, straight out of the box. On a powerbook you
    must hold down fn to avoid adjusting the screen brightness and sound
    volume.
    Elliott Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <300820031555576538%co.uk>, Elliott Roper <co.uk> writes: 
    >
    > That's easy! F1 through F4, straight out of the box. On a powerbook you
    > must hold down fn to avoid adjusting the screen brightness and sound
    > volume.[/ref]

    If they have mapped F1-F4 onto PF1-PF4, what does one use to send a real
    F1-F4 character ?

    Besides, I am using an Apple Keyboard (Model M0116) which does not have
    any F1-F<whatever> keys, only PF1-PF4, labeled <clear>, =, /, *.
    Larry Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <cCzfyGpm++encompasserve.org>, Larry Kilgallen
    <net> wrote:
     
    > >
    > > That's easy! F1 through F4, straight out of the box. On a powerbook you
    > > must hold down fn to avoid adjusting the screen brightness and sound
    > > volume.[/ref]
    >
    > If they have mapped F1-F4 onto PF1-PF4, what does one use to send a real
    > F1-F4 character ?[/ref]

    Well f1-f4 never sent any useful characters on a VT keyboard so they
    won't be missed on a telnet session. 

    Well that's a bit of a showstopper. Too many different keyboards no
    matter where you go.
    Elliott Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <rz.uni-wuerzburg.de>,
    Hans Aus <uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote: 
    >Fred, another thought - What code sequence does the Terminal have to
    >send in order to have the delete key work properly on the VMS host? If I
    >pass this code on to the MacTelnet or iTerm/Mac folks, perhaps someone
    >will take pity on us and add this as an option.[/ref]

    DEL. ASCII 127.


    --
    Matthew T. Russotto net
    "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
    of justice is no virtue." But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of
    a modi of security is a very expensive vice.
    Matthew Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <300820031658201138%co.uk>, Elliott Roper <co.uk> writes: 
     
    >
    > Well that's a bit of a showstopper. Too many different keyboards no
    > matter where you go.[/ref]

    More recent Apple keyboards have those useless F1-f<whatever> keys
    (you point out a substitution of F1-F4 for PF1-PF4, but they are
    all the way at the other end of the keyboard - not right for a
    touch typist.)

    They also don't have the escape key in the "proper" place for
    frequent use in TECO.
    Larry Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <encompasserve.org>, Larry Kilgallen
    <net> wrote: 

    I never noticed that. Any editor with 'gold' in its vocabulary is too
    modern for me. 

    Get a Powerbook Larry. Escape is up the top left where god meant it to
    be. If you get an old Pismo Powerbook that newfangled ` key is right
    underneath it too.
    Set your Mac terminal font to monaco regular and tell teco -1,3:w$$
    <Michael Caine>
    not many people know this
    </Micheal Caine>
    Elliott Guest

  19. #19

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <310820031519011236%co.uk>, Elliott Roper <co.uk> writes:
     
    >
    > Get a Powerbook Larry. Escape is up the top left where god meant it to
    > be. If you get an old Pismo Powerbook that newfangled ` key is right
    > underneath it too.[/ref]

    I have a PowerBook 520c with that key combination, which is _not_ what
    I need. I need the Escape key just to the left of the "1" key, and I
    have no use for that ` key except to type Usenet messages about it.

    But even if the powerbook _did_ have the escape key adjacent to "1",
    and had the Control key adjacent to "A",
    and had tactile feedback more like an Apple Keyboard or a VT keyboard,
    I don't see any way to wire the PowerBook keyboard up to my Gefen ADB KVM.
     

    Ok, but I don't see what it has to do with the Escape key :-)
    Larry Guest

  20. #20

    Default Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal

    In article <rz.uni-wuerzburg.de>,
    Hans Aus <uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:
    : In article <rz.uni-wuerzburg.de>,
    : Hans Aus <uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:
    :
    : > In article <G2S3b.3784$cpqcorp.net>,
    : > "Fred Kleinsorge" <zko.dec.com> wrote:
    : >
    : > > As a side note, we are adding a new set terminal command and terminal
    : > > attribute so that the user can select BACKSPACE == DELETE. That is,
    : > > treat backspace (^H) as a rubout as well as delete as a rubout. I think
    : > > it's in V7.3-2, I know it will be in the IA64 release (dunno if it made
    : > > it into 7.3-2 offhand). The function key to get to the start of the
    : > > current line will still work normally even when this mode is set.
    : >
    : Fred, another thought - What code sequence does the Terminal have to
    : send in order to have the delete key work properly on the VMS host? If I
    : pass this code on to the MacTelnet or iTerm/Mac folks, perhaps someone
    : will take pity on us and add this as an option.
    :
    Hi Hans. It's amazing how this issue has still not been settled everywhere
    and for all time after more than 30 years. I tried to summarize it in a
    web page:

    http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/backspace.html

    It's written for Kermit users, but almost anybody who suffers from this
    problem should find it helpful.

    - Frank
    Frank Guest

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