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Desperation Measures - Mac Networking

Mark Conrad <nospamiam.invalid> writes: > FWIW, when I tried to set this monster up in the past, I found it > beyond my feeble mental capabilities. Besides that, I lost the users > set-up CD, have another CD on order from Netopia. > > All the setup and configuration instructions are for a PC user, not a > Mac user, which does not help at all. Hi, Mark, I have a Linksys Router that I set up. I'm not sure that the instructions are way different depending on OS. With mine, you plugged it in, started up your browser and ...

  1. #1

    Default Re: Desperation Measures

    Mark Conrad <nospamiam.invalid> writes:
    > FWIW, when I tried to set this monster up in the past, I found it
    > beyond my feeble mental capabilities. Besides that, I lost the users
    > set-up CD, have another CD on order from Netopia.
    >
    > All the setup and configuration instructions are for a PC user, not a
    > Mac user, which does not help at all.
    Hi, Mark,

    I have a Linksys Router that I set up. I'm not sure that the instructions
    are way different depending on OS. With mine, you plugged it in, started up
    your browser and typed in the URL to the router and followed the directions
    in the manual.

    I think this is a good place to get help, once you get the CD. Be sure to
    post specific questions and specific tasks and steps you've done if you
    have problems.

    Good luck and have fun.

    --
    Philip Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed
    Legal Assistance on the Web | spam and read later. email to philip
    [url]http://www.PhilipStripling.com/[/url] | civex.com is read daily.
    Phil Stripling Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Desperation Measures

    In article <3qbrwixbwu.fsfshell4.tdl.com>, Phil Stripling
    <phil_striplingcieux.zzn.com> wrote:
    > > FWIW, when I tried to set this monster up in the past, I found it
    > > beyond my feeble mental capabilities.
    >
    > Hi, Mark,
    >
    > I have a Linksys Router that I set up. I'm not sure that the instructions
    > are way different depending on OS. With mine, you plugged it in, started up
    > your browser and typed in the URL to the router and followed the directions
    > in the manual.
    I am indeed envious of your relatively easy-to-setup router ;-)

    Very logical setup instructions for using a Linksys router with
    Timbuktu can be found here:

    [url]http://www.netopia.fr/en-us/support/howtodocs/linksys.html[/url]



    By comparison, the instructions for Netopia R-Series routers here:

    [url]http://www.netopia.fr/en-us/support/howtodocs/routers.html[/url]


    ......leaves much to be desired. They don't even bother tell one how to
    access the initial setup screens. (going through your browser does not
    work, seems you have to 'telnet' to the router)

    Anyhow, I got several clues as to how to setup my router by looking at
    the online instructions for _your_ router.

    Hopefully, the built-in firewall of my router will let traffic from
    Internet Timbuktu users through, but I do not know for certain.

    The router firewall is set by default to deny all incoming Internet
    traffic via Timbuktu, if that traffic _originates_ with the remote
    Timbuktu user.

    Supposedly, the remote TB2 user can get in if the TB2 connection is
    _originated_ by any one of my local Macs.

    I do not yet know how to "open up" the router firewall to admit _all_
    incoming Internet traffic, regardless of who originates the attempted
    Timbuktu connection.

    One detail really puzzles me about all this. If I want one Mac
    computer of my local network of Macs to "control" another Mac on the
    local network-of-Macs, I have to select "Built-In-Ethernet" on my
    TCP/IP settings.

    That means that no remote TB2 user can access that particular local Mac
    any more, because to connect to distant Macs the local TCP/IP settings
    have to be set to "PPP" and "Using-PPP-Server", _not_
    "Built-In-Ethernet".

    Perhaps there is some other way to simultaneously control all the Macs,
    whether they are local Macs or distant Macs?



    If I accidentally manage to get the %*&!!! router to work, _then_
    the built-in firewall and a slew of other features can be activated, as
    I slowly learn how to configure those advanced features.
    > Good luck and have fun.
    Yeah, fun, grrr ;-)

    I went round and round with Netopia two years ago trying to get this
    infernal router perking, but came up empty.

    Maybe this time will be different, hope so.

    Mark-
    Mark Conrad Guest

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    Default Re: Desperation Measures

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  4. #4

    Default Re: Desperation Measures

    Mark Conrad <nospamiam.invalid> writes:
    >SNIP<
    > Hopefully, the built-in firewall of my router will let traffic from
    > Internet Timbuktu users through, but I do not know for certain.
    >
    > The router firewall is set by default to deny all incoming Internet
    > traffic via Timbuktu, if that traffic _originates_ with the remote
    > Timbuktu user.
    >SNIP<
    I've never used Timbuktu, so I have no clue, but I'm sure this is the right
    newsgroup for your queries -- just be sure to use a subject line making
    mention of Timbubktu and your router. You'll get the attention of people
    who will have the experience you'll be getting.

    --
    Philip Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed
    Legal Assistance on the Web | spam and read later. email to philip
    [url]http://www.PhilipStripling.com/[/url] | civex.com is read daily.
    Phil Stripling Guest

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  6. #6

    Default Re: Desperation Measures

    In article <matty_d-A7C5C8.09095229062003news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
    Matthew Smith <matty_dmac.com> wrote:
    > I would come and set it up for you, but you would have to pay transport
    > costs. Are you willing to pay airfare from Australia? hehe
    Hang on, I should get pretty desperate soon. ;-)

    > I have downloaded the manual from the Netopia web site, but I need to
    > ask a few questions.
    Hairy manual, isn't it.<g>

    > How many computers are at the site with the router?
    >
    > Where are the computers at the other end, using Timbuktu?
    >
    > Do you have a fixed IP address for the dialup connection?

    Only two local Mac powerbooks hooked up to the R2020 router right now,
    a Pismo and Lombard. The Pismo runs OS 10.2.6 - Lombard runs OS 8.6 -
    both use TB2 version 6.0.3

    Almost none of the computers on the extended TB2 network will have a
    fixed IP address.

    Computers at the other end could be anywhere, most would be in the
    U.S.A. - mixture of PCs and Macs - many of them would have their own
    local networks which would also be "in" the overall TB2 network.

    Each and every computer in the extended TB2 network is to have the
    capability of controlling _all_ the computers, even if they are PCs.

    That means that even the computers in everyone's _local_ small
    networks have to be able to control, and be controlled by, _any_
    other computer in the overall TB2 network. (including the computers in
    their own small local network)

    All screens of all computers would be simultaneously visible on each
    and every computer in the overall TB2 network. Distant computer screens
    can be "shrunk-down" to as small as one inch by one inch, and
    everything in those tiny screens is still clickable, dragable, etc.

    Realistically, a two-inch square screen is as small as I care to
    manipulate.

    Only _one_ computer could exert control over all the other computers,
    however control could be shifted to anyone by mutual consent and/or by
    some sort of pre-arranged schedule.

    Individual users could enter or leave the extended TB2 network at will.

    Some computers would hook up to the overall TB2 network via an ordinary
    direct telephone connection, instead of over the Internet.

    Any computer user "not-in-control" can easily get the attention of the
    present "control-operator", using the built-in "knock", "invite", and
    "chat" features of TB2.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    TB2 has been around for a long time, however IMO it has not been used
    to its full potential, mainly because people are worried about
    security.

    There are ways to get adequate security, especially for Macs because of
    their switch to a basically secure OS. (OSX)

    Even on the PC side, there are a few relatively secure OSs.

    Mark-
    Mark Conrad Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Desperation Measures

    In article <matty_d-8C1750.12153129062003news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
    Matthew Smith <matty_dmac.com> wrote:
    > In article <3q65mp7pey.fsfshell4.tdl.com>,
    > Phil Stripling <phil_striplingcieux.zzn.com> wrote:
    >
    > > I've never used Timbuktu, so I have no clue, but I'm sure this is the right
    > > newsgroup for your queries -- just be sure to use a subject line making
    > > mention of Timbubktu and your router. You'll get the attention of people
    > > who will have the experience you'll be getting.
    >
    > It's the router that is more important than Timbuktu. All you are doing
    > with Timbuktu is connecting to an IP address on a certain port. It's the
    > router that gets in the way.
    Well, perhaps. Permit me to expouse away on what Phil might have been
    refering to.

    A router might be configured for 'one-way' traffic, where web pages get
    'served' to computers in my network, and nothing goes in the other
    direction _except_ requests for other web pages, said requests being
    made on port 80.

    With TB2 involved, all computers with TB2 installed are kinda 'equal',
    which can confuse the router software. (maybe, I don't really know for
    sure)

    Besides that, many other ports have to be opened, not just port 80.

    Any of the computers can control/look-at/send-receive-files and a
    slew of other things - - - they all have equal 'power', there is no
    stable master/slave or client/server relationship between
    computers when they have TB2 installed.

    The router software might be expecting a more stable relationship,
    where a server always acts as a server, and a client always acts as a
    client.

    Any TB2 computer can act as a 'server', or as a 'client', or sometimes
    both simultaneously.

    For example, any 'client' TB2 computer in the network can request that
    my 'server' Pismo powerbook run its OSX chess program, and that my
    Pismo 'serve' the play-by-play results of the chess program as it plays
    itself a game of chess. (the game moves are 'served' to every TB2
    computer in the network)

    My Pismo is (temporarily) acting as a server.

    Now let's pretend that the power went out in my house, and my computer
    automatically switched to backup power. I know I have limited time
    before my compuyer runs out of backup power, but here we have this
    l-o-n-g chess game that I am 'serving' to everyone.

    So, I get my Pismo to act as a 'client',
    *at-the-same-time-as-it-is-acting-as-a-server*.

    This 'client-request' of mine goes 'out' despite the fact that my Pismo
    is still acting as a server. The actual 'client-request' of mine
    merely stated to everyone that my Pismo is going to stop acting as a
    server shortly, and withdraw from the network because of the power
    emergency.

    (a TB2 client-request normally requests that some other computer act as
    a server)

    ....so my Pismo is briefly acting as a client and a server at the same
    time, for all practical purposes.

    All this interactive switching of roles tends to confuse a router's
    software, unless it is configured properly for TB2, which is what Phil
    may have been refering to.




    On an entirely different subject -

    This unexpected switching-of-roles has caused me trouble in the past,
    when I was involved with novice users who did not know the ins-and-outs
    of using TB2.

    Here was the situation. I was temporarily 'controlling' all the other
    computers in an Internet session. We all normally rotated who got to
    control all the other computers.

    A novice TB2 user, who did not realize all the 'power' that he had,
    decided that _he_ wanted to control all the computers.

    That by itself is fine and dandy, however the novice should have
    "went-through-channels" and requested that I relinquish control,
    _before_ he assumed control.

    The upshot was that the TB2 network went wild, and would have crashed
    all computers in the network.

    As soon as the multiple overlapping screen redraws made it obvious to
    me that something was terribly wrong, I quickly relinquished control of
    all the other computers, to prevent a meltdown of every computer in the
    network.

    The novice TB2 user was happy of course, controlling all the computers
    in the network, and did not realize what he almost precipitated.<g>

    Mark-
    Mark Conrad Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Desperation Measures

    In article <0001HW.BB25C2A40017292C05D0DE70text.giganews.com >, Steve
    <nospamnospam.com> wrote:
    > As you have already figured out, you are going to have to make sure the
    > appropriate ports are opened. In addition, if you have a NAT router you are
    > going to have to map the TB2 ports to one and only one of your internal
    > network computers. That is, externally originated incomming messages (ie
    > those which are not a response to yours) can only address one of them. This
    > is because TB2 uses dedicated ports for the different services (like Chat,
    > Control, Notify, etc) and a NAT router has to know which computer to map
    > these ports to.

    Thanks for the help, this router is really depressing me :-\

    > In addition, if you have a NAT router you are going to have to map the TB2
    > ports to one and only one of your internal network computers.
    Darn, there goes my plan to control _all_ the 'local' computers in
    the overall TB2 network, simultaneously.

    What you say makes sense, because if I had a local network of many
    computers, it would overwhelm my telephone connection with all the
    back-and-forth traffic from the individual local computers.

    Too bad there is not some sneaky way to remotely 'rotate' each local
    computer into and out-of the TB2 network, by changing the router
    settings remotely.

    That would be an overly complex plan however, and I might lose TB2
    'control' of the computer and/or router.

    > You configure the internal Macs to access the internet using the Router
    > via the hub.
    Supposedly, the R2020 router has its own built-in hub, but I don't know
    how to access it properly.

    I will do some more fiddling around, using your suggested settings, to
    see if I can get it working.

    Thanks again,

    Mark-
    Mark Conrad Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Desperation Measures

    In article <0001HW.BB25F56B001D5CD90A5EBC60text.giganews.com >, Steve
    <nospamnospam.com> wrote:
    > > Too bad there is not some sneaky way to remotely 'rotate' each local
    > > computer into and out-of the TB2 network, by changing the router
    > > settings remotely.
    >
    > No, I don't think we are communicating. There is no reason you can't control
    > every computer on your internal network without dialing into them. Your whole
    > internal network should be on the same ethernet. It's only when you go
    > outside that network (via the router) that there is any dialup.
    Oh, I think we are on the same wavelength, it is just that I am not
    making clear what is going on here.

    Presently, I have no problem controlling all the computers in my
    _local_ (Ethernet) network, I can do that right now.

    However, an outside computer that is running TB2 can't control any more
    than _one_ of my local computers, as you mentioned in a previous
    post.

    There is a possibility that a distant TB2 user might be able to
    remotely "select" which one of my local computers he would like to
    control, but to actually implement that feature would likely be way
    beyond my limited technical abilities.

    > What version of TB2 are you using?
    Latest version 6.0.3 of TB2 on both my Pismo (OS-10.2.6) - and my
    Lombard (OS-8.6) Mac powerbooks.
    (so-called "dual-pack" for Macs, one copy for OSX, another copy for
    OS's prior to OSX)

    > Do you have a soft-copy of the router doentation?
    No, I lost the CD that the doentation was on. I have a pending
    email to Netopia asking them how/where I can buy a replacement CD, but
    so far no reply from them.

    I checked the available online doentation for the whole R-Series of
    routers that Netopia sells, but the doentation is general in nature,
    not geared to specific models like my R2020 model, and aimed at PC
    users instead of Mac users.

    The online docs are very old, not updated at all, and downright
    wrong/misleading in a lot of cases.

    Netopia themselves admitted that, and said users would have to use
    "technotes" in conjunction with the crappy docs.

    The R2020 model router is the top of the line router, NAT, firewall,
    built-in hub, and I think port-redirection plus many other features.

    As sold, it is aimed at a telephone user, has two built-in modems, is
    advertised as being able to use three seperate phone lines at the same
    time to speed up downloads of web pages.

    The internal hardware of the R2020 is 'modular', so if later a user
    gets cable or other broadband access, the necessary optional hardware
    module can be installed to handle the faster connection.

    If worse comes to worse, I am gonna pack up all my hardware and travel
    to the Netopia site about 650 miles south of here, and _pay_ them to
    configure the infernal beastie. grrr - growl - grumble

    Mark-
    Mark Conrad Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Desperation Measures

    In article <0001HW.BB262AF00022A5240A5EBB40text.giganews.com >, Steve
    <nospamnospam.com> wrote:
    > I use an old version of IPNetRouter running on an old IIci.
    Ahh, that brings back pleasant memories, I had a IIci for years, maxed
    out the RAM at a whopping 128 MBs <g>

    > What is the interface for configuring it? HTML with a browser?
    No such luck, I have to Telnet to the router.


    > It really isn't that complicated...
    > but it is if you don't have the docs :-)
    That's my problem. I don't really stumble over the mountains, it's
    those mole-hills that trip me up.

    > Basically what you need to do should be something like the following:
    >
    > 1. Set up a set of "internal" addresses, typically of the form
    > 192.168.58.x with the router being x = 1, your pismo being
    > x = 2, your Lombard being x = 3, etc.
    IP of the Pismo is... 192.168.0.15
    IP of the Lombard is 192.168.0.17

    Router address...... (unknown, this really hurts me)

    Perhaps, because of the submask, only the _last_ digit of the router
    matters, so I might be able to use a router address of 192.168.0.1
    (router addresses typically have a last digit of "1")

    All submasks are... 255.255.255.0

    My ISP's address is 207.69.188.185 (Earthlink)


    I used to know where to connect an Ethernet cable from the Mac
    'Lombard' powerbook _to_ somewhere on the router, then opened up the
    Telnet application and got access to the router configuration screens,
    but I forgot exactly how I did those things.

    I experimentally tried all the possible Ethernet connectors on the
    router, but I had no luck trying to open the configuration screens with
    the Telnet application.

    Guess I will have to wait for Netopia to answer my email - I requested
    a users CD for setting up the R2020 router for a Mac, no reply from
    them so far.

    Although routers are supposedly platform independent, the R2020 is
    advertised for a PC, not a Mac.


    You are correct in your determination that there seems to be little to
    nothing on Netopia's website regarding setting up the R2020 for a Mac.

    I will keep bugging Netopia for doentation, without that I am sunk.


    > 5. Configure your router to translate the specific TCP ports that
    > TB2 uses to the target computer on your network. I forget the
    > port numbers... you can get them from the Netopia site.
    Yep, I know all the ports that TB2 uses, they are:

    UDP 407 (main port, Mac-to-Mac, ignoring stuff below)
    TCP 1417-1420 (if PCs are in the TB2 network & old versions of TB2)
    UDP 1023-1053 (range of dynamic ports for Chat, Notify, Intercom)
    TCP 139, UDP 138, UDP 137 (for NT Authentication to work)

    ....but I won't know how to 'translate' them, until I get some
    doentation from Netopia.

    Don't wanna drag you into this mess. If I fail to get adequate Mac
    doentation from Netopia, I still plan to drive 650 miles south to
    their facility and sit on their doorstep.

    Mark-
    Mark Conrad Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Desperation Measures

    In article <0001HW.BB26D65100049A1009A38FB0text.giganews.com >, Steve
    <nospamnospam.com> wrote:
    > > Router address...... (unknown, this really hurts me)
    >
    > No kidding:-) Without that you are dead in the water.
    >
    > Trying to reverse engineer the thing without the docs is likely to be
    > vexatious. FWIW, I would probably call Netopia rather than email them... it
    > might save you a long drive. Also, you might try posting in one of the peecee
    > groups to see if anyone over there might have an R2020.
    >
    > Without the docs, I don't see how I can be much more help.
    >
    > Good luck,
    Thanks, I will need luck. <g>

    That is a good idea to try the peecee NG's to see if anyone there has a
    R2020 router from Netopia.

    Also, I will try Netopia's telephone voice tech-support line, to see if
    they know anything about Netopia's routers.

    In the past, I usually had pretty good luck with Netopia's email, but
    this time they did not answer and I posted on 6/26/2003

    [email]Ask_Netopianetopia.com[/email]

    I will try posting again.

    Timbuktu itself is a great application, I used it for years in the past.

    ....and it runs great, native on OSX. It is the only remote-control
    app' that I know of that let's us control both Macs and PCs.

    If Apple was smart, instead of constantly shooting themselves in the
    foot, they could set up some low-cost time-limited demo sites which
    would let a peecee user control an OSX Mac, so they could try OSX
    directly from their PCs.

    OSX could be the "Next Great OS" for PCs. All the Wintel guys would
    pick up an iMac just to dodge all the PC viruses and kiddie-crackers.

    As for routers in general, most of them nowadays seem to be made for
    broadband, not slow telephone dialup connections like I am stuck with
    out here in the country. It is even harder to find dialup routers
    aimed at Macs.

    Thanks again for the good tips you posted for routers, it helped a lot.

    Now I am on my own, though, trying to resolve these gnarly issues.

    In case anyone else is having problems with these #*&!%* devices,
    consider this thread a place to vent your frustration ;-)

    Mark-
    Mark Conrad Guest

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