DHTML

[xcoldnet]

I have never used DHTML so my question is... why should I consider It? I am
using HTML and Flash to acheive every effect on my web site. Nevertheless I can
see my job offer requiring DHTML as part of the skills. What are the main
reason to use DHTML? THX

[Murray *TMM*]

It's viewable by anyone without plugins?

It can add content to the page that is accessable and spiderable, as opposed
to Flash?

It's easier to use?

Just a few reasons you might consider it.

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"xcoldnet" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:crj60a$jv$1@forums.macromedia.com...

>I have never used DHTML so my question is... why should I consider It? I am
> using HTML and Flash to acheive every effect on my web site. Nevertheless
> I can
> see my job offer requiring DHTML as part of the skills. What are the
> main
> reason to use DHTML? THX
>

[xcoldnet]

Thank you for your reply. So, can we say that everything you can do it with DHTML can be done it in Flash? Or there are things Flash cannot handle while DHTML can?

Dario

[noyb]

No. But why would you want to limit the visitors to your site by using
Flash?
You want your sites to be open to as many people as possible.

"xcoldnet" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:crkcdl$c5j$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Thank you for your reply. So, can we say that everything you can do it

with DHTML can be done it in Flash? Or there are things Flash cannot handle
while DHTML can?

>
> Dario

[Murray *TMM*]

There are unique things that each can do. dHTML cannot animate a streaming
vector graphic, or play a sound file. Flash cannot ... well ... all those
things that Flash cannot do....

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"xcoldnet" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:crkcdl$c5j$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Thank you for your reply. So, can we say that everything you can do it
> with DHTML can be done it in Flash? Or there are things Flash cannot
> handle while DHTML can?
>
> Dario

[xcoldnet]

Well, in this case it really sounds to me that DHTML is a deadline technology.
If you check the number of people with the Flash plug in installed you will
realise only 10% of the Internet population cannot see a .swf file. And for
sure they are not the best clients for any business you want to do online!
sorry for those of you experienced and intrested in DHTML. Dario

[noyb]

Funny... I have $$$ ... but refuse to use the Flash plug-in... guess I'll
just have to take my business somewhere that won't force me to download
Flash.

Flash is something to be used for very LIMITED uses on a web site... HTML,
CSS are standards that should be supported by all sites. If not, you might
as well not even bother developing for the web.

"xcoldnet" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:crkf5k$f0o$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Well, in this case it really sounds to me that DHTML is a deadline

technology.

> If you check the number of people with the Flash plug in installed you

will

> realise only 10% of the Internet population cannot see a .swf file. And

for

> sure they are not the best clients for any business you want to do online!
> sorry for those of you experienced and intrested in DHTML. Dario
>

[Murray *TMM*]

You don't believe those numbers, do you?

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"xcoldnet" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:crkf5k$f0o$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Well, in this case it really sounds to me that DHTML is a deadline
> technology.
> If you check the number of people with the Flash plug in installed you
> will
> realise only 10% of the Internet population cannot see a .swf file. And
> for
> sure they are not the best clients for any business you want to do online!
> sorry for those of you experienced and intrested in DHTML. Dario
>

[rob::digitalburn]

I went to an MM conference just as Flash 6 was coming out, and they said
that the penetration for the Flash player was about 90%. *Then* they said
that that only meant version 4 and above. The penetration for Flash 5 Player
at the time 6 was coming out was only about 50% I believe. Make of that what
you will.

There are some things Flash can do that dHTML can't, as Murray rightly
points out. The main advantages of dHTML are much quicker and easier to
develop in (I think), generally much smaller file sizes, rendering speed
generally much quicker (although obviously this depends on the browser).
It's also generally much easier to interface dHTML with your database using
plain old PHP (or whatever) than it is with Flash, where you have to fiddle
around with XML as an intermediary and all that rubbish.

One advantage of Flash is less cross browser compatibility issues, as long
as you get your plugin detection scripts right!


Murray *TMM* wrote:

> You don't believe those numbers, do you?
>
>
> "xcoldnet" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
> news:crkf5k$f0o$1@forums.macromedia.com...

>> Well, in this case it really sounds to me that DHTML is a deadline
>> technology.
>> If you check the number of people with the Flash plug in installed
>> you will
>> realise only 10% of the Internet population cannot see a .swf file.
>> And for
>> sure they are not the best clients for any business you want to do
>> online! sorry for those of you experienced and intrested in DHTML.
>> Dario

[Rodrigo Souza - DUBCOM]

I disagree about sound files, we can do it with pure html too using any
plugin (wmp, qt, ra, etc..), but the other points are true.. ;D


"Murray *TMM*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> escreveu na mensagem
news:crkd11$cqo$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> There are unique things that each can do. dHTML cannot animate a
> streaming vector graphic, or play a sound file. Flash cannot ... well ...
> all those things that Flash cannot do....
>
> --
> Murray --- ICQ 71997575
> Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver
> (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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> ==================
>
> "xcoldnet" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
> news:crkcdl$c5j$1@forums.macromedia.com...

>> Thank you for your reply. So, can we say that everything you can do it
>> with DHTML can be done it in Flash? Or there are things Flash cannot
>> handle while DHTML can?
>>
>> Dario

>
>

[Murray *TMM*]

Ahh - but you cannot do it in a reliable, cross-browser way like Flash can,
Rodrigo. Think Macs and PCs. The only way to make things work reliably
there is with Flash.

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"Rodrigo Souza - DUBCOM" <rodrigo@dubcom.com.br> wrote in message
news:crlrb4$smh$1@forums.macromedia.com...

>I disagree about sound files, we can do it with pure html too using any
>plugin (wmp, qt, ra, etc..), but the other points are true.. ;D
>
>
> "Murray *TMM*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> escreveu na mensagem
> news:crkd11$cqo$1@forums.macromedia.com...

>> There are unique things that each can do. dHTML cannot animate a
>> streaming vector graphic, or play a sound file. Flash cannot ... well
>> ... all those things that Flash cannot do....
>>
>> --
>> Murray --- ICQ 71997575
>> Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver
>> (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
>> ==================
>> [url]http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com[/url] - Template Triage!
>> [url]http://www.projectseven.com/go[/url] - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
>> [url]http://www.dwfaq.com[/url] - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
>> [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/[/url] - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
>> ==================
>>
>> "xcoldnet" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
>> news:crkcdl$c5j$1@forums.macromedia.com...

>>> Thank you for your reply. So, can we say that everything you can do it
>>> with DHTML can be done it in Flash? Or there are things Flash cannot
>>> handle while DHTML can?
>>>
>>> Dario

>>
>>

>
>

[Bev Thornton]

On 2005-01-07, Murray *TMM* wrote:

> Ahh - but you cannot do it in a reliable, cross-browser way like Flash can,
> Rodrigo. Think Macs and PCs. The only way to make things work reliably
> there is with Flash.

What happens if you load Linux or a BSD distribution on those Macs and
PCs? How many have Flash plug-ins available?

--
[email]bevthornton@despammed.com[/email] Support: <http://endchildsegregation.info/>

Trust: the foremost kinship.
Unbinding: the foremost ease.

[xcoldnet]

well, maybe 'those' number are not correct but still I beleive is just a matter
of time and flash plug ins will be everywhere. In any case what is the point to
have new technologies, like flash is compared with DHTML, and do not use them?
The same I beleive apply to coldfusion compared with PHP; and for those people
who still have: old computers, with old graphic cards and old browsers and old
56k connections well, maybe it's time to do an upgrade. That's my view. If web
developers and designers keep worry about the problems people using old
technologies have using their web site, then we will never move forward, or at
least we will do it slower than we could. Let say all of it! there are still
people using Windows 98 and their machines because they are too lazy to upgrade
or don't want to spend the money to do it, while speding the equivalent
necessary cash in beers! ..and we should crack of brain to be sure they can use
the web site because they do not have a flash plug in? Their problem... we go
ahead, we they weak up they will be welcome too, but for the time being I would
not worry about them too much. Dario

[noyb]

YEah, you tell your client that you're going to design a site that will turn
away 10-20% of their potential customers. Yeah... you're going to be very
popular for that.

> least we will do it slower than we could. Let say all of it! there are

still

> people using Windows 98 and their machines because they are too lazy to

upgrade

> or don't want to spend the money to do it, while speding the equivalent
> necessary cash in beers! ..and we should crack of brain to be sure they

can use

> the web site because they do not have a flash plug in? Their problem... we

go

> ahead, we they weak up they will be welcome too, but for the time being I

would

> not worry about them too much. Dario
>

[rob::digitalburn]

You could quite easily tell them that if you can show that the benefits that
Flash would give can create a conversion rate that more than made up for it.
Or if you can show that that 10-20% are visits that wouldn't convert to
sales anyway. No that you'd necessarily be able to show either... the point
being that pure visitor numbers aren't meaningful without taking conversion
rates into account (if applicable).

> YEah, you tell your client that you're going to design a site that
> will turn away 10-20% of their potential customers. Yeah... you're
> going to be very popular for that.

[noyb]

I'm building a building... putting in the doors... I tell the owner that I'm
sorry, but I'm making the doors so that 10-20% of the people that might be
customers won't be able to get in. Sorry, but those 10-20% weren't worth
anything anyways... as they won't buy anything... so might as well forget
them as customers.
Yep... I'm sure that business owner is going to agree and let you do it.

If you want to sell something, and demo the product with Flash, great, do
it. But there better be another alternative for the visitors who don't want
to have to download yet another plug-in just so I can see your widgets.
There's a use for Flash, but 90% of what I've seen out there, is useless in
a "storefront" setting, and it's a disservice to those business owners who
don't have a clue yet to try and push Flash on them, just because "Flash is
cool"...

YMMV

"rob::digitalburn" <rob@digitalburn.net> wrote in message
news:crmf9a$k6q$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> You could quite easily tell them that if you can show that the benefits

that

> Flash would give can create a conversion rate that more than made up for

it.

> Or if you can show that that 10-20% are visits that wouldn't convert to
> sales anyway. No that you'd necessarily be able to show either... the

point

> being that pure visitor numbers aren't meaningful without taking

conversion

> rates into account (if applicable).
>
>

> > YEah, you tell your client that you're going to design a site that
> > will turn away 10-20% of their potential customers. Yeah... you're
> > going to be very popular for that.

>
>

[xcoldnet]

OK, target reached. I wanted to understand more about the reason to use or not
DHTML and thank to all of you I now have a better picture of the differences
between DHTML and Flash. I am not going to up(or I should say down?)grade to
DHTML as I beleive it is not the future. People will eventually and gradually
upgrade their machines and Flash will became a standard accross the Internet.
But if I will need to use DHTML I am sure I can came back here and find some
good help from you ;) Thank you! Dario

[Al Sparber- PVII]

JavaScript is native to all visual browsers and as such is extremely
efficient. Browsers use JavaScript to render pages whether the the user
has it enabled or disabled. As an example, when CSS hover styles or
visiblility properties are used, they are processed using the browsers
internal JavaScript engine. So JavaScript is an extremely efficient
technology because it is native to the browser. DHTML, which is a
conjured up name to describe JavaScript that manipulates style
properties is not an old technology. It evolves along with the browser
Documnet Object Model. JavaScript, incidently, is what makes Dreamweaver
run, too :-)

JavaScript, in the right hands, can produce interactive pages that
degrade in all browsers, even ones that do not support script. Even in
assistive readers. Go to our home page in Firefox and disable
JavaScript. You'll find that our popup menu simply displays fully
expanded. If that were Flash, and Flash were disabled, there would be no
automatic solution. You would have to have prepared a duplicate set of
pages.

Flash is good in its place, which - in my opinion, is to add non-mission
critical extras to a page. The work to get it usable and accessible is
sometimes just not worth the bother.

--
Al Sparber - PVII
[url]http://www.projectseven.com[/url]
DW Extensions - Menu Systems - Tutorials - CSS FastPacks
---------------------------------------------------------
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"xcoldnet" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:crmsf6$di3$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> OK, target reached. I wanted to understand more about the reason to
> use or not
> DHTML and thank to all of you I now have a better picture of the
> differences
> between DHTML and Flash. I am not going to up(or I should say
> down?)grade to
> DHTML as I beleive it is not the future. People will eventually and
> gradually
> upgrade their machines and Flash will became a standard accross the
> Internet.
> But if I will need to use DHTML I am sure I can came back here and
> find some
> good help from you ;) Thank you! Dario
>

[xcoldnet]

mmm, it makes more sense now. your reply was professional. I didn't know it
that DHTML was about JavaScript, which seems to be a pervasive language in web
development... also MM Director MX 2004 now gives you the option to use Lingo
or JavaScript... I am still not sure about when to use DHTML and for what. I
will study it a bit more now before to say enything else. Thank you, Dario

[Murray *TMM*]

If you want to move things around on your page interactively, or show them
and hide them, then you will be using dHTML. If you want to change the
browser viewport properies, then you will be using dHTML. If you want to
build a page that writes code before the browser renders it and that code
causes page elements to appear based on a) browser type, b) viewport size,
c) screen color depth, d) phase of the moon, then you are using dHTML.

But here's the thing. You don't create a page and then say "hmm - I'm going
to use some dHTML here". You just say "I need to have a scrolling text box
here. I know how to do that. I will use this scrolling area extension for
Dreamweaver to create it for me!".

--
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"xcoldnet" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:cs0pub$ch9$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> mmm, it makes more sense now. your reply was professional. I didn't know
> it
> that DHTML was about JavaScript, which seems to be a pervasive language in
> web
> development... also MM Director MX 2004 now gives you the option to use
> Lingo
> or JavaScript... I am still not sure about when to use DHTML and for what.
> I
> will study it a bit more now before to say enything else. Thank you,
> Dario
>