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Digital SLR Dilemma - Photography

I'll eat my hat if there is ever an affordable mass-market full frame (24x36mm) digital SLR. It doesn't take rocket science to see that a 24x36mm sensor chip is a leviathan in semiconductor terms. Nikon has also twigged and is developing DX lenses for the APS sensor size - this is larger than the Four Thirds standard but much smaller than a full frame sensor. Canon is not showing any sign of following this route just yet, but a change from the current full frame strategy can't be far off. Ian -- DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY NOW - http://www.dp-now.com UK-based Web magazine ...

  1. #1

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    I'll eat my hat if there is ever an affordable mass-market full frame
    (24x36mm) digital SLR. It doesn't take rocket science to see that a 24x36mm
    sensor chip is a leviathan in semiconductor terms. Nikon has also twigged
    and is developing DX lenses for the APS sensor size - this is larger than
    the Four Thirds standard but much smaller than a full frame sensor.

    Canon is not showing any sign of following this route just yet, but a change
    from the current full frame strategy can't be far off.

    Ian
    --

    DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY NOW - http://www.dp-now.com
    UK-based Web magazine for users of digital photography
    hardware, software and services.


    "Danny Rohr" <com> wrote in message
    news:bg5sb6$l2230$news.uni-berlin.de... 
    originally 
    getting 
    as 
    or 
    we 
    on 
    going 
    so, 
    you 
    huge 
    place 
    the 
    that 
    aspect 
    what 
    to 


    Ian Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    "Danny Rohr" <com> wrote in message news:<bg5sb6$l2230$news.uni-berlin.de>... 

    First, don't believe everything that you read.

    Second, if you like the current cameras, buy the L-glass. If you wait
    for the next big thing you will wait forever because there is always a
    next big thing...

    The current top line lenses are amazing creations. They take amazing
    pictures (they are capable of more than most photographers). If you
    buy a current system you will have the technology available to take
    just about anything you could imagine. Buy it, learn to use it and
    enjoy!

    Finally, if you want to save a lot of money, consider buying a scanner
    and keep on with your current camera. That's how I got started into
    digital. Unfortunately, I wanted more, so I ended up learning the
    hard way that there ain't no substitute for high price in the digital
    world -- at least for what I want to do... I finally bit the bullet
    and bought a D100. I don't regret it at all -- even though the prices
    are beginning to tumble...

    Just one man's point of view!

    <TED>
    Ted Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    Danny Rohr writes:
     

    Is there some reason why you must move to digital RIGHT NOW?

    Just wait a few years for the market to sort itself out, and then invest
    when you feel that things are stable enough that you don't have to worry
    about making a wrong decision.

    --
    Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
    Mxsmanic Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma


    Mxsmanic <com> wrote in message
    news:com... 
    >
    > Is there some reason why you must move to digital RIGHT NOW?[/ref]

    Well no, I don't have to move right now, but I want to buy some expensive
    glass and don't want to it be useless when I do switch to digital.

    Danny.



    Danny Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    Danny Rohr wrote:
     
    Australian or 
    digital.
    [...]

    I think the open "4/3" system is a great idea and I hope it's
    successful, but no way is it an EOS killer. Note that we don't
    read enthusiastic press releases about the 4/3 system from Kodak
    or Fuji.

    Olympus was late to market with the E-1. It sounded great back
    in April of 2001:

    http://www.steves-digicams.com/diginews_apr2001.html

    but by the time they could even demo, Canon, Nikon and Fuji were
    shipping higher-resolution DLSR's with larger sensors -- and at
    a lower price.

    Even if Olympus achieves their sales goals, there will be a lot
    more EOS digital cameras out there than E-1's for the
    foreseeable future:

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0306/03062501oly90000.asp


    --
    --Bryan

    Bryan Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    "Danny Rohr" <com> wrote in message news:<bg5sb6$l2230$news.uni-berlin.de>... 

    What use is all that 4:3 marketing crap when the pictures aren't what
    you expect them to be.

    Quite frankly, todays digital SLR (Nikon, Canon, Fuji and for god's
    sake Sigma) make pretty decent pictures. The problem today is not
    sharpness or megapixels, the problem is color as all these digital SLR
    have a substantial problem getting the same color range as color
    slide. In professional high gloss printing, people are telling me that
    digital is worthless compared to professionally scanned slides because
    of the color range. You still see a lot of pros using digital,
    however, because of the advantages it offers. Most consumers won't see
    the difference between a MF slide and a 6MP digital image anyway, and
    quite frankly, on a letter size magazine most pros won't see a
    difference.

    Having said that, I don't see anything changing with the 4:3 system.
    Fuji has announced CCDs that will have a better color range, but we
    have yet to see them in action.

    As far as replacing lenses etc... there is always ebay
    Bernhard Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    Bernhard Mayer writes:
     

    When you have 3-CCD cameras, you'll have better color range. It's not
    going to happen as long as you use a single sensor with a matrix filter.

    --
    Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
    Mxsmanic Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    Mxsmanic wrote:
     
    >
    > When you have 3-CCD cameras, you'll have better color range. It's not
    > going to happen as long as you use a single sensor with a matrix filter.[/ref]

    I don't think that makes sense. A matrix filter limits the
    spacial resolution of color information, but not the color
    range. The matrix of filters in three colors over the
    individual sensor cells can produce just as wide and precise a
    color range as the dichroic reflector/filters in a 3 CCD camera.

    Sony recently announced a matrix filter with four different
    colors. The results are not yet in, but four colors has the
    potential to produce a superior color range.


    --
    --Bryan

    Bryan Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    Bryan Olson writes:
     

    It has already been proven in video. The only reason people deny its
    utility in still photography is that nobody has built a 3-CCD camera
    yet. When someone does, suddenly it will be "essential" and older
    single-CCD cameras will be "unacceptably poor" in color resolution.

    That's exactly how it happened in video, too.

    Heck, the Leica M7 proved that the principle applies generally. To
    Leicaphiles, AE and electronic shutters were _bad_ things shunned by any
    Real Photographer until the M7 came out with AE and an electronic
    shutter, then suddenly they were _necessary_ things for any
    self-respecting Real Photographer.
     

    The lower resolution can affect color range over small areas. The exact
    color of strands of hair might not be recorded very well through a
    matrix filter, whereas having full color information for each pixel
    would record it just fine.
     

    And yet video continues to use 3 CCDs. Strange, no? Especially since
    color is far less important in video, since most video systems mangle
    it, anyway.
     

    Only by sacrificing resolution.

    --
    Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
    Mxsmanic Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    Mxsmanic wrote:
     
    >
    > It has already been proven in video.[/ref]

    Not the same thing at all. Single-CCD video cameras are for a
    different market than 3-CCD cameras.
     

    Most scanning backs are 3-CCD, or the equivalent. Better color
    resolution, same color range.

     

    Color resulution, sure. Color range is the issue here.

    [...] 

    Not strange if one understands video. They cannot do the same
    kind of color interpolation as still cameras, because of the
    data rate and interlace (progressive-scan digital video cameras
    are an exception).

     
    >
    >
    > Only by sacrificing resolution.[/ref]

    Now you're getting it.


    --
    --Bryan

    Bryan Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    Mxsmanic <com> writes:
     
    >
    > They do it all the time in single-CCD cameras.
    >
    > The bottom line is that 3-CCD cameras are being discounted as
    > unnecessary by still photographers because no such cameras are
    > available. Once someone actually builds such a camera, all of a sudden
    > they'll be an absolute must for everyone, and everyone will deny having
    > ever said that they were unnecessary. That's how it happened in video;
    > that's how it will happen here. People like to pretend that they have
    > the best equipment possible until better equipment comes along.[/ref]

    Since there *is* no such thing as a 3-CCD camera in the range we're
    talking about to compare to, we can't have any opinion of whether it's
    better, worse, or irrelevant. The closest approximation so far has
    been the Sigma with the Foveon, which has NOT overwhelmed many people
    with its superior resolution and color accuracy.

    When there are such cameras, then we can talk about the relative
    merits and demerits. Until then, it's idle speculation.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <net>, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera mailing lists: <dragaera.info/>
    David Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    David Dyer-Bennet writes:
     

    We have 3-CCD video cameras. They are not from a different universe;
    their operating principles are the same as those of still cameras. So
    we do know that three CCDs gives superior results.

    --
    Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
    Mxsmanic Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    Mxsmanic <com> writes:
     
    >
    > We have 3-CCD video cameras. They are not from a different universe;
    > their operating principles are the same as those of still cameras. So
    > we do know that three CCDs gives superior results.[/ref]

    They operate at so much lower a resolution that the additional
    alignment issues imposed by a 3-chip solution are tractable there.
    It's not clear to me that they would be at the resolutions needed for
    still digital cameras these days. The fact that nobody has bothered
    is to my mind telling.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <net>, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera mailing lists: <dragaera.info/>
    David Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    Mxsmanic wrote:
     
    >
    > They do it all the time in single-CCD cameras.[/ref]

    That's ludicrous. A 3-CCD camera has no reason to do the same
    kind of color interpolation. That's kind of the point of using
    three -- get all three colors at each pixel.

     

    Perhaps that's the bottom line of some other discussion, but the
    issue here is color range. A three CCD camera does not offer
    better color range than a matrix filter. Better color
    resolution, yes, but not color range.
     

    Check out the Foveon II

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0102/01021407pma01.asp#foveon
     

    It is? I though the three-detector camera pre-dated the mosaic
    sensor.
     

    Maybe, but the back-focus required is a major pain at wide angles.
     

    I don't know a single digital photographer who doesn't expect
    the equipment to get much better.


    --
    --Bryan

    Bryan Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    David Dyer-Bennet writes:
     

    Twenty years ago, nobody thought an eleven-megapixel CCD was possible,
    either.

    --
    Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
    Mxsmanic Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma


    "Bryan Olson" <org> wrote in message
    news:UL3Wa.4821$news.prodigy.com... 
    > >
    > > They do it all the time in single-CCD cameras.[/ref]
    >
    > That's ludicrous. A 3-CCD camera has no reason to do the same
    > kind of color interpolation. That's kind of the point of using
    > three -- get all three colors at each pixel.
    >
    > [/ref]
    A matrix filter has in-accurate color filtering depending on the
    coloured dyes used.
    A Dichroic filter is a mechanical "bandpass" filter that does not mess
    up the colour response in each of the Redish, greenish and bluish parts
    of the spectrum.

    Thus a 3 CCD camera , but only with Dichroic filter (i.e. no coloured
    dyes at all), will give 3 times the colour resolution AND better (nore
    accurate and more range) colour.

    The dyes in a matric filter affect not just range but accuracy of
    colour. Also at higher CCD resolutions can cause diffraction effects or
    errors due to misalignment.

    Some early Video cameras used 4 camera tubes to avoid alignment issues,
    the 4th tube was for Monochrome high resolution. Cheaper lower
    resolution tubes and less accuracy then needed for the colour.

    The original colour camera used Orthicon Cathode Ray Tubes with Dicroic
    filter (3 or 4 tube designs). Later cheap industrial cameras used matrix
    filter on a vidicon type tube. CCD was much later.

    Really "professional" broacast video cameras have AFIK never been single
    tube or single CCD in BBC. Only industrial and domestic. Maybe the odd
    portable ENG cam, though I doubt it.

    Stripe or matrix filters on tube or CCD camera have always been inferior
    to dichroic splitter block 3 or 4 element cameras:
    * Resolution
    * Range of Colours (some missing)
    * Saturation of Colour
    * Accuracy of Colour (all colours, not just most,. correct hue)

    IMO matrix filters being dye based may deterioate with time or vary in
    performance with Tungstan, Florescent, Halogen or daylight. Dichoric
    filters won't as no dyes are involved (colour/white balance correction
    still needed for different colour temps of course).

    Dichroic filters use mirrored uncoloured diffraction gratings to split
    the light into different bands of wavelength.

    A 3 ccd dichroic 11Mpixel camera might help counterbalance the wieght of
    a big lens though!

    --
    Watty

    Ireland.




    Watty Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    Mxsmanic <com> writes:
     
    >
    > Twenty years ago, nobody thought an eleven-megapixel CCD was possible,
    > either.[/ref]

    Oh, nonsense. They couldn't do it *then*, is all.

    And the problem of producing field equipment containing at least 7
    parts aligned to the tolerances needed is of a different kind than
    producing higher-res wafers, anyway.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <net>, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera mailing lists: <dragaera.info/>
    David Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    David Dyer-Bennet writes:
     

    So maybe they'll be doing 3-CCD still cameras in the future.
     

    It is done for lenses every day.

    --
    Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
    Mxsmanic Guest

  19. #19

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    Bryan Olson writes:
     

    I said SINGLE-CCD.
     

    And when the first 3-CCD camera comes out, you'll be explaining why it
    is an absolute must, and why single-CCD cameras cannot possibly provide
    the same range.
     

    Not in consumer gear. I don't remember how it worked for pro gear.
    Even today, very few professional cameras use a single CCD (mostly
    industrial cameras).

    --
    Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
    Mxsmanic Guest

  20. #20

    Default Re: Digital SLR Dilemma

    Mxsmanic wrote:
     
    >
    >
    > I said SINGLE-CCD.[/ref]

    Sorry, my mistake in reading. You are incorrect though. Single
    CCD-cameras only combine the colors within a scan line. The
    pixels in the lines above and below are not even active in the
    same field. (As noted, progressive-scan digital video cameras
    are an exception).

     
    >
    >
    > And when the first 3-CCD camera comes out, you'll be explaining why it
    > is an absolute must, and why single-CCD cameras cannot possibly provide
    > the same range.[/ref]

    I cited one last time; don't know if it was the first. I like
    the idea of 3-CCD cameras; they have better color resolution and
    light efficiency. Unfortunately they're bulky and require long
    back-focus, which makes wide angles really hard to get. With
    the major CCD manufacturer going to a four color mosaic, multi-
    CCD cameras will have to get even bulkier to match the color
    range.

    I expect something along the lines of the Foveon X3 will
    eventually prevail.

     
    >
    > Not in consumer gear. I don't remember how it worked for pro gear.[/ref]

    Ah, just as I though; three-detector cameras pre-dated the
    mosaic sensor. If we're talking specifically about consumer
    gear, then your claim that 3 CCD's became "an absolute must for
    everyone" is certainly false.


    --
    --Bryan

    Bryan Guest

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