Discretionary Hyphen?

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Our AICS type engine has deprived us of the hard space shortcut (option-space bar).
But we can get one from the Character flyout. Inconvenient but survivable.

Please tell me there's SOME way to create a dischy in an area type block! Most Mac
programs code it to command--(dash or minus), but of course Adobe programs see this
as the zoom out shortcut. I'll shake it off if I can't get a discretionary hyphen with a
shortcut combination, but I can't find ANY way to create one. So what's the secret?

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

I am not sure you want me to answer your question but I would try creating an action and or a script and give it a keyboard shortcut the folk over in Scandinavia tell me that was a reasonable solution for adding the @ as there was no other way except with the glyph palette.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Why EVER would I not want you to answer my question?! You have helped me
repeatedly here!

Well, my problem is I don't know what the raw materials for that action would be!
I really haven't a clue how to make a discretionary hyphen in AICS. Simply placing
a hyphen in the middle of a word at the right edge of an area type block isn't
functioning as a dischy... at least not for me. And no key combination that I've
come up with is working. And I can't find a command in the Type menu or on
any of the type palette flyouts.

My worst fear is that they're simply not supported by the new type engine (but
they MUST be makeable in InD, right?... I just don't have InD.)

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

Perhaps the Online Help could address this.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Well, there's no reference to Discretionary hyphens in Help. There's only
reference to the hyphenation option in the paragraph palette. So in this
case, help was no help.

I should be clear (and, I hope, not patronizing). A discretionary hyphen is
a special hyphen "embedded" in a word that is ONLY activated - and made
visible - if that word happens to fall at the right edge of a text block and
is in "need" of being hypenated. If, for example, you do some edting of the
block and the word in question shifts to the middle of another line, the
hyphen becomes invisible... still "embedded if needed" but invisible.

That's what I can't create in AICS, but CAN create in most word processors,
FreeHand, PageMaker, and (I assume) InD. (Never tried in PSCS.)

Wade, first make an area type block. Format a paragraph so it has a negative
first line indent (like a typical numbered or bulletted list in which the text is
lined up to the right of the number or bullet). Try shift-return in one of those
paragraphs. THAT's what doesn't work.

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

Oh I see.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

DAMN! I can even make discretionary hyphens in PHOTOSHOP! And with a
shortcut key no less: command-control--(dash). What is up with a new
type engine that's supposed to rival the most advanced page layout apps
that can't do this?

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

What is up with a new type engine that's supposed to rival the most advanced
page layout apps
that can't do this?





Are you sure you read or heard this somewhere? It is a new type engine and promises to make life much easier and allows you to do things that were not possible in the past but Rivals said who?

[Ann_Shelbourne@adobeforums.com]

Cmd. Shift Hyphen puts Discretionary Hyphens in place -- in both Illustrator CS and InDesign CS.

These hyphens are invisible until actually needed. (If you resize the text box they appear and disappear as needed.)

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Ann, command-shift-hyphen isn't doing it for me.

Do you think this capability is controlled by files in the Application Support>
Adobe>Hyphenation folder (I ask because I may have removed some "foreign
language" files from there)? Or do you think it's controlled by files elsewhere
(that I may have removed)?

Thanks,

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

It works here BTW and I actually seldom use hyphenation but this is good to know.
If I was you Doug the way I would remove those files after reinstalling is to do it one type at a time and try all the things and features that you must have with each of those files to make sure that you are not creating false bugs.

But first try trashing your preferences.

I won't remove foreign language stuff though as that will make life miserable when you need them as there is no real custom install in the Suites applications.

It also makes it difficult for you to determine whether one of the bugs you discovered is in fact a bug!

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Quite right.

I trashed preferences. Had no effect. Time for a reinstallation of AICS.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Hol' on thar a sec'n' pardner!

Before reinstalling, I went back to check a few things. I turned hyphenation ON
in the paragraph palette and, sho' nuff, I got discretionary hyphens! Wow.

But this is in DIRECT contradiction to Ann's statement above. She says the dischy
should work with hyphenation off!

So are we SURE that in AICS, a dischy (made with command-shift-dash) SHOULD
work when we have hyphenation OFF in the paragraph palette? I'd be so grateful if
someone could just set up an active (visible) discretionary hyphen in an area type
block, then simply toggle the hyphenation setting on and off. If the hyphen remains
functional under both conditions, I'll know I still have a problem.

And a second question. In the Hyphenation command on the paragraph flyout
menu, there's a slider toward the bottom of the dialog with "Better Spacing" on
the left and "Fewer Hyphens" on the right. I cannot slide the trianglular slider;
if's frozen at the second hatch mark from the left. Shouldn't I be able to slide it?
Is this yet another sign of a problem, or is there a setting I need to change to
unstick it?

Thanks.

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

That is not what she wrote she wrote to make sure it is checked apparently that is what it is for?

Oh. yes Doug, If you click at a new position it will move it is not a slider!

Again perhaps it would be wiser to ask the question in this form: How does one do this type or operation (description)?

Rather than…"Hey there's a another bug in AI CS, I just found it and I can't believe they let this one go by!"

Have a nice day!

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Right. She wrote the opposite of what I read.

On the slider-that-isn't-a-slider, I believe I was careful to indicate I did not
know how to use it, not that it was a bug. Did it read to you as if I was claiming
I'd uncovered another bug?

Did my original post starting this thread read to you as if I was claiming I'd
uncovered a bug, or that I couldn't figure out how in the world to make a
discretionary hyphen? Did my second read to you as if I'd made that claim?
Or was it the one post AFTER I'd checked online help (as you recommended)
and AFTER I'd found I could make a DH in my only other Adobe program and
AFTER no one had come along to turn my head straight, that I (wrongly)
suspected a frustrating program oversight (never referring to it as a "bug")
and (wrongly) wondered out loud in frustration how a new type engine could
omit an age old feature?

Rather than suggest an alternative way for me to ask a question, perhaps it
would be wiser if you read what I wrote instead of projecting onto my posts
what you don't want me to write. And maybe It would be wiser for me to read
what Ann wrote with the care her advice deserves :)

Wishing a nice day for you too.

[Ann_Shelbourne@adobeforums.com]

Glad you got it to work, Doug.

The difficulty is, that the "dischys" [I love that term for them!] are invisible in Illustrator unless you turn on "Show hidden Characters".

The Type Menu is far more helpful in InDesign as it lets you select these special characters and white spaces from its drop-down menu so you know that you have got the character you need even -- if you can't remember the shortcut.

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

"My worst fear is that they're simply not supported by the new type engine (but
they MUST be makeable in InD, right?... I just don't have InD.)"

"Is this yet another sign of a problem, or is there a setting I need to change to
unstick it?"

"What is up with a new
type engine that's supposed to rival the most advanced page layout apps
that can't do this?"



These are three statements you made in this thread alone. What I am saying is not to react so quickly even if you re qualifying what you are saying. Wait to find out how it works first. then react to the way it works note how ANN reacts to something she doesn't like about the way this works even though it does work it is still not to her liking.

"The Type Menu is far more helpful in InDesign as it lets you select these special characters and white spaces from its drop-down menu so you know that you have got the character you need even -- if you can't remember the shortcut."

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

"I would try creating an action and or a script."

"Perhaps the Online Help could address this."

"BTW Shift Return gives you a soft return and it seems to work here wasn't that
something you said did not work as well?"

These are three statements you made in this thread alone. (Seemingly none based
on an understanding of the question, and one based on a careless read of a prior
post that you reacted to too quickly.) What I am saying is that I did not react so
quickly. I waited 16 posts to "find out how it works," didn't find that out, and only
then began to assume it wasn't my abject ignorance or unfounded worst fears.

Perhaps it would be wiser for you to not react so quickly to what you think I'm
reacting so quickly to :)

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Ann, first off, thanks. Second, I thought I was aware of the "ante-word dischy"
trick to prevent hyphenation, but your mentioning it prompted me to test it in
AICS. Interesting thing. I can get it to prevent an ALREADY EXISTING DISCHY from
hyphenating the word, but I can't seem to get the trick to prevent a "hard" hyphen
from breaking the word (that is, one placed by the type engine with Hyphenation
toggled on).

Now surely this is my ignorance. No doubt the program is working absolutely
flawlessly. I assume that. I know that. I'm positive of that. Far be it from me to
assume anything's wrong with anything but me.

But would you be kind enough to check this on your machine anyway? Or maybe
the trick is only SUPPOSED to work on pre-existing dischys and not hard hyphens
placed by the type engine?

Thanks.

(Edit: Just checked my word processor where placing a discretionary hyphen
before a word that's been auto-hyphenated by the software in fact reformats
the word so it doesn't break. This is how I thought it's supposed to work. But
I'm STILL assuming it's me, and only me. Far be it from me to jump to any
false conclusions about AICS. I'm waiting to learn.)

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

I will wait for you to learn as well!