Discretionary hyphen? Yeah, I wish!

[Flipsen]

Hi all,

First of all, I don't like hyphenation, so I have turned it off by default. However, in some pages, there are words I would like to have a hyphen, so the obvious way to do this is insert a discretionary hyphen, right?

Guess what? ID2.0 just won't do it! In Quark XPress it's no problem, you decide where you want it, insert a discretionary hyphen AND IT HYPHENATES right on the spot! But I just can't get this to work in ID, it overrules the layout I (the designer) want and follows it's own rules. Very annoying...

I've tried every possible setting, single-line/paragraph composer, but it just won't work... Any help on this?

[Ken_Grace@adobeforums.com]

It sounds as if you've given InDesign a discretionary hyphen, and it's used
its discretion.

You either allow InDesign to use its text fitting algorithms or you don't.
If you do, then you accept that it is going to hyphenate where it sees fit.

So I guess you are stuck with inserting hard hyphens, and hoping that the
text doesn't subsequently reflow and leave you with hyphenated words in the
middle of a line.

k

[Flipsen]

Well Ken, that's exactly the problem... I use hard hyphens now, and of course, there are always textcorrections at the last minute...

Now how is it possible that Quark XPress will do exactly what you want and ID doesn't? I don't want to go back to Quark! :)

[Dave_Saunders@adobeforums.com]

You can't on the one hand expect to take advantage of InDesign's paragraph composer and yet try to manage it using techniques that apply to dumber composers.

The paragraph composer doesn't always get things right -- it can't take into account word combinations, for example that are important to you.

The worst way to control the composer is by putting in hard hyphens. That's asking for trouble. The smart way to do it is to apply No Break to selected space bands. The easy way to do this is to create a character style that applies only No Break and selectively apply that to spaces in your paragraph to force InDesign to keep certain words together.

Dave

[Peggy_Coquet@adobeforums.com]

"Flipsen" <bol.jack@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:3bb4428a.-1@webx.la2eafNXanI...

> Hi all,
>
> First of all, I don't like hyphenation, so I have turned it off by

default. However, in some pages, there are words I would like to have a
hyphen, so the obvious way to do this is insert a discretionary hyphen,
right?

>
> Guess what? ID2.0 just won't do it! In Quark XPress it's no problem, you

decide where you want it, insert a discretionary hyphen AND IT HYPHENATES
right on the spot! But I just can't get this to work in ID, it overrules the
layout I (the designer) want and follows it's own rules. Very annoying...

>
> I've tried every possible setting, single-line/paragraph composer, but it

just won't work... Any help on this?

As others have suggested, discretionary hyphens are just that:
discretionary. But if you have blocked hyphenation (by unchecking the box on
the paragraph pallette) NO hyphenation will be done. You have to permit
hyphenation - at least for that paragraph - before you can insert a
discretionary hyphen.

Peggy

[Dave_Saunders@adobeforums.com]

If you don't like hyphens, then try a setting where you have hyphenation on but with the slider all the way at the Fewer Hyphens end. Might save you a lot of unnecessary labor.

Dave

[George_Bilalis@adobeforums.com]

Flipsen,
Besides 'paragraph composer' ID has also a 'line composer' exactly like the only one quark has. Then after inserting discretionary hyphens, the rules apply, if they are going to be used by the program, or not.

rgrds
George

[Flipsen]

Thanks all for replying! Well, it seems to me that it just can't be done the way I want...

Ok, I've selected singe line composer for a paragraph, then tried the discretionary hyphen. Sorry, but won't work (checked the 'Hyphenate' option in the paragraph window too).

Changed the rules for hyphenation, set it to fewer hyphens (knew that one), set 'hyphenate words longer than' at 25 (I don't want hyphens, remember) and still won't work.

I guess the positive thing about ID is turning against me here. ID is too stubborn and won't let me, as the designer of the page, decide where to place a hyphen unless it's a 'hard' hyphen. Maybe I'll ask Adobe some advice, because I find it very annoying ;)

[Michael_S._Flynn@adobeforums.com]

ID is too stubborn and won't let me, as the designer of the page, decide
where to place a hyphen unless it's a 'hard' hyphen.




You also have the option of programming your paragraph composer. That way, if it doesn't do what YOU want, you can only blame yourself, and not a heartless, international corporation that isn't catering to your specific needs.

[George_Bilalis@adobeforums.com]

In Quark XPress it's no problem, you decide where you want it, insert
a discretionary hyphen AND IT HYPHENATES right on the spot!




That's not exactly right Flipsen. Quite the opposite is true. In qxp you insert an in-line 'discretionary' hyphen (that is a hidden character) where you want it and if that falls in the hyphenation zone, then it hyphenates the word, (not right on the spot). Otherwise it stays there, doing nothing, not even showing up it the text stream.

rgrds
George

[Flipsen]

That's not exactly right Flipsen. Quite the opposite is true. In qxp you
insert an in-line 'discretionary' hyphen (that is a hidden character)
where you want it and if that falls in the hyphenation zone, then it hyphenates
the word, (not right on the spot). Otherwise it stays there, doing nothing,
not even showing up it the text stream.




Ok, got me on that one... It's true what I said, but, I also do some tracking in that area in QXP to get it to hyphen. And that works fine.

[Dave_Saunders@adobeforums.com]

So you told it not to hyphenate words shorter than 25 characters long and then you said that it could hyphenate at some point in a presumably shorter word.

Well, as you've discovered, InDesign takes you at your word and does what you tell it to do.

You seem to be overly sensitive to hyphens, if you ask me, but I know that that is a very common thing. The average reader seldom notices hyphens if the copy is worth reading.

Dave

[Flipsen]

You seem to be overly sensitive to hyphens, if you ask me, but I know
that that is a very common thing. The average reader seldom notices hyphens
if the copy is worth reading.




:) Well, it's not me who is that sensitive actually, it's my collegues... But you've got a point. Problem is that the layout I use most of the time has pretty small columns, so that's why I'd like to do it manually with discretionate hyphens.

Anyway, I think the best solution is as follows: I let ID do the hyphenation, set it to 'fewer', set it to words more then 20 letters or something like that and go from there. Btw, it's Dutch text mostly, maybe I need to buy a better dictionary for ID?

[Dave_Saunders@adobeforums.com]

Did you notice my advice about no break? You might be able to encourage InDesign's composer to pay more attention to your discretionary breaks by applying no break to the space at the end of the word in question -- there may already be a discretionary hyphen at the point in question anyway and a no break setting might just trigger it.

Dave

[Flipsen]

I'll give that a chance too, Dave, thanks for the advice!