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Don't count on force-quit - Mac Applications & Software

"Mark Conrad" <invalid> wrote in message news:050820032243155238%invalid...  Use terminal. ps -auxwww |grep <app name> (Gives you the process id) kill <process id> If it's being very nasty and -still- refusing to die... kill -9 <process id> ....and watch the thing go bye-bye. Cheers, Ian...

  1. #1

    Default Re: Don't count on force-quit


    "Mark Conrad" <invalid> wrote in message
    news:050820032243155238%invalid... 

    Use terminal.

    ps -auxwww |grep <app name> (Gives you the process id)
    kill <process id>

    If it's being very nasty and -still- refusing to die...

    kill -9 <process id>

    ....and watch the thing go bye-bye.



    Cheers,
    Ian


    Ian Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Don't count on force-quit

    In article <050820032243155238%invalid>,
    Mark Conrad <invalid> wrote:
     

    I just reboot and let fsck do its thing. Hasn't been a problem so far.

    --
    Today, on Paper-view: Pulp Fiction!
    Howard Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Don't count on force-quit

    In article <Pi3Ya.6269$server.ntli.net>,
    "Ian McCall" <org> wrote:
     

    You might want to re-read the bit about "hard freeze":
     

    That'd make it rather difficult to get to Terminal.

    --
    Today, on Paper-view: Pulp Fiction!
    Howard Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Don't count on force-quit


    "Howard S Shubs" <net> wrote in message
    news:newsguy.com...
     

    I thought he was saying the Force-quit -caused- the hard freeze? Have I
    misread? If not, then terminal would still be available. If this is a
    troublesome app that doesn't respond well to force-quit, then it might be
    worth heading to the terminal to start with, that's all.

    If I misread it and force-quit wasn't the cause, then you're right of
    course; kill -anything won't help one jot.

    Cheers,
    Ian


    Ian Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Don't count on force-quit

    In article <Pi3Ya.6269$server.ntli.net>, Ian
    McCall <org> wrote:
     

    I should have been more explicit about the order of operations, I guess.

    Booting from my external drive's OS X partition, I did various nasty
    things to my _internal_ drive's OS X partition.

    After all that was completed, I rebooted the computer, still staying in
    my external drive's OS X partition. (as the 'boot' partition)

    Then I opened DiskWarrior version 3.0 from my OS X boot partition on
    the external drive.

    I instructed DW to rebuild the directory of my _internal_ drive's
    OS-X partition, and DW started doing its thing.

    Immediately, nothing, nada, nil, zip - - -

    Cursor on screen would not move, absolutely no keyboard response either.

    Even let my cat walk over the keyboard, because my cat is really an
    alien from a distant galaxy, and she has been known to fix hard freezes
    in the past ;-)

    Only way I was able to regain control of my computer was to poke that
    recessed button on the rear of my Pismo powerbook, which finally killed
    the power to the computer.

    After that, I inserted the DiskWarrior 3.0 CD into the CD drive, then
    pressed the 'power-on' button of my powerbook, holding down the "C" key
    to force the computer to boot from the DiskWarrior CD.

    Then I tried rebuilding the directory of the _external_ drive's OS-X
    partition.

    DW started, then almost immediately "dropped out" with no error message
    displayed, dumping me back to the desktop.

    I knew when to quit, so I gave up and shut the computer off.

    I did not want to boot from the _internal_ drive, because that is a
    work in progress. (long story)

    That left me with no recourse except to hook up yet another external
    firewire drive, a Western Digital drive with OS X on it.

    I left the original LaCie external drive hooked up, so now I have two
    ext drives hooked up to my firewire jacks.

    I booted off the WD external drive's OS X, then I restored the LaCie
    external drive's OS-X partition from a backup, which took six minutes.

    Now the restored LaCie drive did _not_ have DiskWarrior version 3.0
    on it, but rather the old version of DW, version 2.1.1

    So now everything is back to normal, the way it was before I decided to
    check out the newest version of DW, version 3.0

    I carefully set that y-trapped version 3.0 aside, vowing never to
    use it again until Alsoft fixed the bugs.

    According to a report from another thread, these bugs don't occur with
    all users, only with about a third of users, according to the report.

    Mark-
    Mark Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Don't count on force-quit

    In article <newsguy.com>, Howard S
    Shubs <net> wrote:
     

    If I could count on fsck fixing _all_ the damage that might have been
    caused by DiskWarrior, then I would go that route also.

    No big deal, the restore operation takes only six minutes, and then I
    am much more certain that any damage has been repaired.

    I am so paranoid about "creeping corruption" that every four months my
    OS-X partition gets reloaded from scratch, right from all the CDs.

    Generally takes me about two days to get everthing loaded and get all
    the app's reconfigured to the way they were before.

    That self-punishment is good for one's constitution, you know.

    I also occassionally bang my head against the wall, because it feels so
    good when I stop ;-)

    Mark-
    Mark Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Don't count on force-quit

    In article <1fzb6hb.lzz295j1oq4gN%invalid>, Mike
    Rosenberg <invalid> wrote:
     
    >
    > Whoa! The problem only occurs when you reboot, _AFTER_ you've already
    > rebuilt the directory. At always works at doing its job, but sometimes
    > you have the inconvenience of having to power the Mac off and on to
    > reboot.[/ref]

    I assume you are talking about the freeze problem itself, and in that
    context you are correct, so far as it goes.

    Keep in mind that a hard freeze can sometimes cause damage that can not
    be fixed by running fsck later.

    I myself am not willing to pay the price of a corrupted boot disk, just
    in order to rebuild the directory on another disk.

    I guess one could always boot from the DiskWarrior CD itself, and hope
    that any freeze did not affect the disk being rebuilt.

    BTW, how _does_ one detect whether subtle damage has been done, if
    that damage is not something that fsck can report on.

    For example, I don't believe fsck is capable of finding and repairing
    the damage caused to Asian file names reported by David C. (below)

    How many other forms of damage will be missed by fsck.


    As for a report of out-and-out damage to the OS X partition being
    rebuilt:

    From David C. - - (thread "DiskWarrior 3.0 flaky", 8/1 - 2.68 KB) 

    I have not checked out David's claim of damage caused by the new
    version of DiskWarrior yet, but I plan to do so. Granted, it is minor
    damage, and only confined to people who use Asian fonts to label their
    folders. (directories)


    Here again are some minor complaints about version 3.0 - - -

    Reporting on the SMART disk checker part of DiskWarrior -
    From Russell E. Owen - - (same thread, 8/1 - 2.50 KB) 

    Now granted, "frequently freezing for many seconds at a time" may not
    be a big deal, but I can't help but wonder if any damage is being done
    to the disk being checked during those temporary "freezes".


    My own experience, booting from an external OS X partition, was that I
    was able to _complete_ the rebuilding of the directory of my internal
    drive's OS-X partition, with a minor fault reported about the "root
    creation date needs to be repaired" - - - after the rebuild, but before
    exiting from DiskWarrior, I was offered the choice of saving the report
    (about the root creation date)

    I clicked "Okay", and a hard freeze of my external boot drive resulted.

    Whether or not any damage was done to the _internal_ disk that was
    still being handled by DiskWarrior is unknown, but I restored both the
    external and internal OS X partitions just to be on the safe side.

    One respondent in the other thread suggested that my particular
    problems with the new version 3.0 of DiskWarrior might be caused by
    some sort of hardware problem.

    That is very unlikely, because when I switched to using the older
    version of DiskWarrior, all my problems promptly disappeared, using the
    same hardware.

    It all boils down to a person's confidence in the new version of DW.

    Obviously, you have more confidence in DW not causing damage than I do.

    Personal choice - - - it would be practically impossible to determine
    whether or not subtle file damage was actually being done.
    (other than the Asian fonts issue)

    Mark-
    Mark Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Don't count on force-quit

    In article <1fzb6hb.lzz295j1oq4gN%invalid>, Mike
    Rosenberg <invalid> wrote:
     

    ....which is the whole point of this particular thread, namely that one
    can not count on the much touted feature of OS X to be able to
    "force-quit" an application that goes sour, like DiskWarrior 3.0 for
    example.

    Mark-
    Mark Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Don't count on force-quit

    In article <plus.net>, Mike
    Hutchison <here.com> wrote:
     
    >
    > You see. Not even the mighty Diskwarrior is all brilliant.
    > I'm a Norton Utils guy, and I respect BOTH programs with their merits.[/ref]

    I have a somewhat different attitude. If an application causes a hard
    freeze of OSX, then I junk that application.

    Now the _old_ version of DiskWarrior, version 2.1.1 has never caused
    a crash in years of hard use, so I put up with the hour-long time it
    takes to check the directory of OSX. (3.5 GBs of files in a 12 GB
    partition)

    To tell the truth, I don't use DiskWarrior all that often, so it is not
    a hardship for me.

    The only parts of Norton Util's that I use are "Disk Editor +" and
    "SpeedDisk" from a really old version of Norton Util's booted from OS9.

     
    >
    > Eh!
    > Or... why not just check the disk with Disk First Aid for any POSSIBLE
    > errors, instead of going over the top about it.[/ref]

    Because it is hard to determine exactly what has been damaged by a hard
    freeze. Disk First Aid and its OSX equivilant, "fsck" do indeed check
    and repair some things, but by no means do they check everything that
    could have been damaged by the freeze.

    I could also run DiskWarrior version 2.1.1, but that would take an hour.

    DW version 3.0 often _causes_ a hard freeze on my particular
    hardware/software combination, so I am not about to use that new
    version, unless Alsoft fixes the bugs so that it works as reliably as
    the older version 2.1.1

    Anyhow, it only takes six minutes to replace the entire OSX partition
    from a Terminal dd backup, plus all the critical housekeeping stuff in
    the first 1800 sectors of my disk, like for example:
    1) Driver Descriptor, sector zero
    2) Main Partition Map
    3) All the disk drivers
    4) Apple's patch files
    5) so called "I/O" sectors

    ....and the 187 sectors at the very end of my 12 GB OSX partition that I
    think consist of the spare directory, the so-called "Alternate Volume
    Header" sector and associated spare directory sectors.

    Now I will grant that _most_ of the time the junk listed above is not
    damaged by a freeze, unless someone unplugs the main power to the
    computer at power-on and spikes those sectors - - - but it just makes
    me feel better about replacing everything.

    I am trying to stop relying on my OS9 utilities. Hopefully, the newest
    OSX version of Norton Utils will have an OSX-native version of
    DiskEditor+ in it, I hope.

    That particular utility is necessary because I want the capability of
    altering the OSX partition's "modification" time in a backup file,
    which is not possible unless the backup can be created _before_ any
    rebooting takes place.
    (OSX-native version of DiskEditor+ will allow this to happen)

    Mark-
    Mark Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Don't count on force-quit

    Mark Conrad <invalid> writes: 

    Ummmm.... I hope it's not too "really old". Old versions of Speed
    Disk have been known to corrupt HFS+ partitions - especially ones
    that OS X is using.

    -- David
    David Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Don't count on force-quit

    In article <panix.com>, Loren
    Finkelstein <Net> wrote:
     

    Yes indeedy, when _any_ utility results in a frozen cursor, and
    absolutely no response from the keyboard in OS X, then I figure that
    something is radically wrong with the utility.

    Previous respondents in this thread mentioned that the new version of
    DiskWarrior, version 3.0, is prone to freezing with some
    hardware/software combinations, while the old version 2.1.1 works just
    fine on the exact same hardware/software.

    This seems to occur even if DW is booted from the CD.

    Another respondent mentioned that the new version of DW also corrupts
    the Asian names of the "Read-Me" files that he downloads from the Web.
    (old version does not corrupt the Asian names of files)

    ....but how many Mac users use Asian font titles for their files.<g>

    These bugs will be very hard to find, because apparently most Mac users
    are not experiencing these bugs. (except possibly the Asian-name bug)

    The "freeze" bug is not repeatable, sometimes it happens, sometimes it
    doesn't, very frustrating.

    As long as the old version of DW works okay, I will continue using it
    in preference to using the newer buggy version 3.0

    Alsoft of course maintains that "its gotta be something wrong with your
    hardware, or other applications" - - - they fail to explain why the old
    version of DiskWarrior works just fine with the same hardware and
    software.

    Mark-
    Mark Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: Don't count on force-quit

    Mark Conrad writes: 
    >>
    >> Ummmm.... I hope it's not too "really old". Old versions of Speed
    >> Disk have been known to corrupt HFS+ partitions - especially ones
    >> that OS X is using.[/ref]
    >
    > Uh, maybe I exagerated a little, it is version 2.1.1 - created
    > sometime between 1998 and 2001 by Alsoft.[/ref]

    Was there some intervening message that I missed? I was replying to
    a comment about Nortun Utilities, and you replied with a description
    of Disk Warrior.

    -- David
    David Guest

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