eCommerce/Shopping Cart Experience

[Aaron Bertrand - MVP]

> I've already took on board what Aaron said about using SQL Server over

> Access, but I need to know what other pitfalls should I avoid such as
> Sessions only or Sessions/DB for on-going orders?

I keep one value in the session: cartID. Everything else is retrieved per
page.

> Has anybody got some good source code examples that I could get my teeth
> into?

I don't think anyone will be very open to revealing the complete result of
their hard work, as 3rd party applications are expensive. This isn't a
"show me all the subfolders" kind of code sample; this is going to be a
well-planned, thought-out, extensive application. I think the theoretical
thrust your app should take can definitely be shaped by opinions here, but I
for one am not about to reveal all the source code for my own shopping cart
that I've implemented on customers' sites.

> A real important aspect that I want to look at is that I want to try and
> create the cart as a fully working tool in the background so that another
> user could change the look of the site without having to get into or cock

up

> the coding.

This goal is not exclusive to shopping carts at all.

--
Aaron Bertrand
SQL Server MVP
[url]http://www.aspfaq.com/[/url]

[Laphan]

Hi Guys

I know I asked about this before, but seeing as I got bugger all response I
thought I would word it a different way :0)

Can you please give me any hints, tips, dos and don'ts for creating a full
throttle eCommerce/Shopping Cart site.

I've already took on board what Aaron said about using SQL Server over
Access, but I need to know what other pitfalls should I avoid such as
Sessions only or Sessions/DB for on-going orders?

Has anybody got some good source code examples that I could get my teeth
into?

A real important aspect that I want to look at is that I want to try and
create the cart as a fully working tool in the background so that another
user could change the look of the site without having to get into or cock up
the coding.

I know this is probably some kind of idealistic UDML (??) approach that I've
read about from a '20 man development team with a 180 meetings a week'
story, but if I don't ask if you guys do it then I'll never know will I.

Rgds

Laphan

[Laphan]

Hi Aaron

Hope you are well.

Understand your comments re reluctance to give away code, but surely you all
had to learn from some form of template. Obviously you all created your
cart in your own image, but you had to start from somewhere - right :0)

I'll be honest, I'm bamboozled by your comment re keeping 1 value in the
session. I don't mean to hijack your code, I just want to understand the
principle of why you would do this. What are the pros and cons of doing it
this way?

I'd really like to see some of the carts you've done, so could you post the
URLs of a few so I can see how the master does it.

Do I take it that my funny goal of having one side for the airy-fairy
designers and one side for the coders, is actually a true bone afide
procedure?

Yet again, I don't want to tread on anybody's toes, but how does this
concept work?

Thanks

Laphan


Aaron Bertrand - MVP <aaron@TRASHaspfaq.com> wrote in message
news:eMkr1TN8DHA.2416@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> I've already took on board what Aaron said about using SQL Server over
> Access, but I need to know what other pitfalls should I avoid such as
> Sessions only or Sessions/DB for on-going orders?

I keep one value in the session: cartID. Everything else is retrieved per
page.

> Has anybody got some good source code examples that I could get my teeth
> into?

I don't think anyone will be very open to revealing the complete result of
their hard work, as 3rd party applications are expensive. This isn't a
"show me all the subfolders" kind of code sample; this is going to be a
well-planned, thought-out, extensive application. I think the theoretical
thrust your app should take can definitely be shaped by opinions here, but I
for one am not about to reveal all the source code for my own shopping cart
that I've implemented on customers' sites.

> A real important aspect that I want to look at is that I want to try and
> create the cart as a fully working tool in the background so that another
> user could change the look of the site without having to get into or cock

up

> the coding.

This goal is not exclusive to shopping carts at all.

--
Aaron Bertrand
SQL Server MVP
[url]http://www.aspfaq.com/[/url]

[Aaron Bertrand - MVP]

> Understand your comments re reluctance to give away code, but surely you
all

> had to learn from some form of template. Obviously you all created your
> cart in your own image, but you had to start from somewhere - right :0)

Speaking from personal experience, no, I decide the requirements (with help
from the client, of course), and build it from the ground up. So maybe
because of that I'm more reluctant than most. But I'm sure it's part of the
reason you don't find too many shopping carts out there "with free source
code."

> I'll be honest, I'm bamboozled by your comment re keeping 1 value in the
> session. I don't mean to hijack your code, I just want to understand the
> principle of why you would do this. What are the pros and cons of doing

it

> this way?

Keep state in the database. Minimize the amount of data that is passed
around from page to page. Minimize the amount of data that is kept in
memory while joe blow is reading the long description of the barley pea
coat.

If you do it right, a user can start a shopping cart, have their computer
struck by lightning, boot up the dusty Mac, and pick up where they left off
without remembering how many Dr. Pepper belts they decided on minutes ago.

> I'd really like to see some of the carts you've done, so could you post

the

> URLs of a few so I can see how the master does it.

[url]http://www.beeequipment.com/[/url] was built from scratch. Absolutely no 3rd
party components or utilities of any kind, other than a UPS database to
calculate shipping costs to specific zip codes / zip code ranges.

> Do I take it that my funny goal of having one side for the airy-fairy
> designers and one side for the coders, is actually a true bone afide
> procedure?

Why wouldn't it be?

> Yet again, I don't want to tread on anybody's toes, but how does this
> concept work?

Well, you give the designers an "interface" to stored procedures. They pass
data to the database (this doesn't really impact the layout), and when they
retrieve data for display, they do so however they please. Maybe you need
to ask a more specific question?

--
Aaron Bertrand
SQL Server MVP
[url]http://www.aspfaq.com/[/url]

[Don Grover]

Hi Laphan
Here is a link to a shopping cart, that has a demo, it should give you an
idea of how a cart operates.
[url]http://www.comersus.com/[/url]
After writing one my self (150 asp pages) for a major corporation, I must
say 60% of the time was in designing a well thought out cart operation.
Stylesheets are the way to go for look and feel creating a dummy template
page to apply a stylesheet against would be my first order of business.
Then the Database design next.
One of my biggest succesfull implementations was creating a priority based
logging system that output every dam thing to a logfile table, then after
deployment turning down the priority number so no debug logging.
This allowed me to analyse all output durring development.

Anothing thing I did was create a vbscript function that output all
communication from/to 3rd party channels to an output folder, this gave me
the ability to again analyse what I sent and what I received from ie. Stock
system, Banking, Accounting system, then I just turned it of in production.

As far as sql sproc's are the way to go, I also created a seperate database
with configuration and login details for cart with password of course, this
enabled me to move both asp, scripts and cart db between development and
production without the need to change any setting or user details..

Just my 2 cents worth after spending 4 months putting it together.

Don

"Laphan" <news@DoNotEmailMe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Od2QeNN8DHA.2416@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> Hi Guys
>
> I know I asked about this before, but seeing as I got bugger all response

I

> thought I would word it a different way :0)
>
> Can you please give me any hints, tips, dos and don'ts for creating a full
> throttle eCommerce/Shopping Cart site.
>
> I've already took on board what Aaron said about using SQL Server over
> Access, but I need to know what other pitfalls should I avoid such as
> Sessions only or Sessions/DB for on-going orders?
>
> Has anybody got some good source code examples that I could get my teeth
> into?
>
> A real important aspect that I want to look at is that I want to try and
> create the cart as a fully working tool in the background so that another
> user could change the look of the site without having to get into or cock

up

> the coding.
>
> I know this is probably some kind of idealistic UDML (??) approach that

I've

> read about from a '20 man development team with a 180 meetings a week'
> story, but if I don't ask if you guys do it then I'll never know will I.
>
> Rgds
>
> Laphan
>
>

[Laphan]

Many thanks for the info Don

Very much appreciated.

Rgds Laphan

Don Grover <spamfree@assoft.com.au> wrote in message
news:eUo5XlO8DHA.3012@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Hi Laphan
Here is a link to a shopping cart, that has a demo, it should give you an
idea of how a cart operates.
[url]http://www.comersus.com/[/url]
After writing one my self (150 asp pages) for a major corporation, I must
say 60% of the time was in designing a well thought out cart operation.
Stylesheets are the way to go for look and feel creating a dummy template
page to apply a stylesheet against would be my first order of business.
Then the Database design next.
One of my biggest succesfull implementations was creating a priority based
logging system that output every dam thing to a logfile table, then after
deployment turning down the priority number so no debug logging.
This allowed me to analyse all output durring development.

Anothing thing I did was create a vbscript function that output all
communication from/to 3rd party channels to an output folder, this gave me
the ability to again analyse what I sent and what I received from ie. Stock
system, Banking, Accounting system, then I just turned it of in production.

As far as sql sproc's are the way to go, I also created a seperate database
with configuration and login details for cart with password of course, this
enabled me to move both asp, scripts and cart db between development and
production without the need to change any setting or user details..

Just my 2 cents worth after spending 4 months putting it together.

Don

"Laphan" <news@DoNotEmailMe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Od2QeNN8DHA.2416@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> Hi Guys
>
> I know I asked about this before, but seeing as I got bugger all response

I

> thought I would word it a different way :0)
>
> Can you please give me any hints, tips, dos and don'ts for creating a full
> throttle eCommerce/Shopping Cart site.
>
> I've already took on board what Aaron said about using SQL Server over
> Access, but I need to know what other pitfalls should I avoid such as
> Sessions only or Sessions/DB for on-going orders?
>
> Has anybody got some good source code examples that I could get my teeth
> into?
>
> A real important aspect that I want to look at is that I want to try and
> create the cart as a fully working tool in the background so that another
> user could change the look of the site without having to get into or cock

up

> the coding.
>
> I know this is probably some kind of idealistic UDML (??) approach that

I've

> read about from a '20 man development team with a 180 meetings a week'
> story, but if I don't ask if you guys do it then I'll never know will I.
>
> Rgds
>
> Laphan
>
>

[Laphan]

I'm being really thick here (I think), but in relation to the 'struck by
lightning' scenario can I just go through it to see if I get the principal
right:

1) User visits your site's home page.

2) You look at your on-going orders table for the next unique identifier.

3) You put this identifier in a session var.

4) You put the identifier/session var into a cookie. The cookie gets round
the lightning.

5) As client goes round the site and orders their goods, you put a
transaction line in the DB for each item with a field in the transaction
line holding the session var.

6) If the machine pops, they reboot and upon entering the site, the site
picks up the cookie and retrieves the order in it's current state.

7) They complete their order you add the transaction lines to a header
transaction (to store the invoice number, invoice date, etc) and then delete
the on-going transaction for the appropriate session.

Am I getting the drift???

What if they inadvertently block cookies cos their browser is picky??

Rgds

Laphan


Aaron Bertrand - MVP <aaron@TRASHaspfaq.com> wrote in message
news:e9iR6xN8DHA.1640@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

> Understand your comments re reluctance to give away code, but surely you

all

> had to learn from some form of template. Obviously you all created your
> cart in your own image, but you had to start from somewhere - right :0)

Speaking from personal experience, no, I decide the requirements (with help
from the client, of course), and build it from the ground up. So maybe
because of that I'm more reluctant than most. But I'm sure it's part of the
reason you don't find too many shopping carts out there "with free source
code."

> I'll be honest, I'm bamboozled by your comment re keeping 1 value in the
> session. I don't mean to hijack your code, I just want to understand the
> principle of why you would do this. What are the pros and cons of doing

it

> this way?

Keep state in the database. Minimize the amount of data that is passed
around from page to page. Minimize the amount of data that is kept in
memory while joe blow is reading the long description of the barley pea
coat.

If you do it right, a user can start a shopping cart, have their computer
struck by lightning, boot up the dusty Mac, and pick up where they left off
without remembering how many Dr. Pepper belts they decided on minutes ago.

> I'd really like to see some of the carts you've done, so could you post

the

> URLs of a few so I can see how the master does it.

[url]http://www.beeequipment.com/[/url] was built from scratch. Absolutely no 3rd
party components or utilities of any kind, other than a UPS database to
calculate shipping costs to specific zip codes / zip code ranges.

> Do I take it that my funny goal of having one side for the airy-fairy
> designers and one side for the coders, is actually a true bone afide
> procedure?

Why wouldn't it be?

> Yet again, I don't want to tread on anybody's toes, but how does this
> concept work?

Well, you give the designers an "interface" to stored procedures. They pass
data to the database (this doesn't really impact the layout), and when they
retrieve data for display, they do so however they please. Maybe you need
to ask a more specific question?

--
Aaron Bertrand
SQL Server MVP
[url]http://www.aspfaq.com/[/url]

[Brynn]

Actually, I will be open sourcing my shopping cart within the 3 months.

I am building backend inventory tools and order tracking and completing. You
will also be able to create attributes for items like color, size, etc...
and be able to have price adjustments for those attributes.

It will also have an autoresponder 'confirmation email' that can be sent out
.... that will be compatible using frontpage cgi, aspemail, aspmail, cdonts,
or cdo

There will be a customer database included ... they will be able to send you
messages, but it will be a message system via a database ... and your
replies, they can look at online, as well as recieve the message in their
email via one of the email components. You will be able to turn all email
features off if you do not have a component ... and they will then have to
receive replies to their messages through their account login.

Also, I have already built the data classes, and this will be mysql and MS
sql compatible. Whichever you have available. I have already built the
"setup" scripts to create the database tables and stored procedures ...
instructions on manual setup will also be available ... and a testing page
that will test the setup will also be available.

Also, their has to be a write directory ... it will be called
coolpier_scripts_data. Although all of the products are stored in the
database ... I have found the performance has been greatly increased by
having text files with the html for the products. If the customer picks a
category ... the product layout is prebuilt product pages ... AND the
product's individual page is already prebuilt. This is rewritten when you
click update when editting a product.

Anyway ... soon to come. Sorry it is going to take me 3 months ... I am open
sourcing a contact_me, news_archive, faqs, forum, note keeper,
shopping_system, nice photo_album, and webmaster tools ... PLUS FULL ADMIN
TOOLS FOR ALL!!! The backend UI is taking 60% of the time.

All of these will be available in about 3 months.

ANYWAY
To further answer your question ... Session is fine, but in my experiences,
for the most part, those that disable cookies, also disable session cookies
because they don't know wtf they are doing. I would use cookies, and keep
sessions to a minimum. However, I would only keep the user_id, or some
unique id in the cookie ... and then keep the items in the database ... I
have found when creating my system, that you are going to hit the database
for the price and etc... anyway, when going to a cart ... it is better to
just search for their order than use an IN statement and sift through all
the products looking for a handful of product_ids.

Anyway, Hope this helps ... I will be on the NGs rarely until all of these
projects are done. These projects WILL get done!!! I make my money with
custom coding and intranet/ extranet business tools ... and even installing
these tool which are going to be open source. The people I work for couldn't
implement these tools if they tried.

for the most part ... all of these tools will be running on the same page,
using the querystring to control view ... like ...

view=products, or view=cart
view=contact_me, view=send_message
etc...

I will be supplying the dimensions of the table for the tool ... you will be
able to place any of these tools inside a table cell within your design. You
will be able to control the look through the admin tools ... which will
simply be manipulating the css files ... which you will never have to
manually touch (which are written by asp anyway).

Take care,

--
Brynn
[url]www.coolpier.com[/url]

*****
I reply and post to this newsgroup in an attempt to help other users.
I in no way guarantee the effects of scripts posted ...
and sometimes post partial scripts, untested to point users in the right
direction.

ALWAYS test my and everyone elses scripts before use ... duh ;)
*****
"Laphan" <news@DoNotEmailMe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Od2QeNN8DHA.2416@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> Hi Guys
>
> I know I asked about this before, but seeing as I got bugger all response

I

> thought I would word it a different way :0)
>
> Can you please give me any hints, tips, dos and don'ts for creating a full
> throttle eCommerce/Shopping Cart site.
>
> I've already took on board what Aaron said about using SQL Server over
> Access, but I need to know what other pitfalls should I avoid such as
> Sessions only or Sessions/DB for on-going orders?
>
> Has anybody got some good source code examples that I could get my teeth
> into?
>
> A real important aspect that I want to look at is that I want to try and
> create the cart as a fully working tool in the background so that another
> user could change the look of the site without having to get into or cock

up

> the coding.
>
> I know this is probably some kind of idealistic UDML (??) approach that

I've

> read about from a '20 man development team with a 180 meetings a week'
> story, but if I don't ask if you guys do it then I'll never know will I.
>
> Rgds
>
> Laphan
>
>

[Astra]

Hi Brynn

Many thanks for the detailed feedback.

Are there any examples or snippets you could show me just for me to get a
feel of how this would work?

Rgds

Laphan


"Brynn" <not.real@coolpier.com> wrote in message
news:UK-dnRu5vtmD47bdRVn-hw@comcast.com...
Actually, I will be open sourcing my shopping cart within the 3 months.

I am building backend inventory tools and order tracking and completing. You
will also be able to create attributes for items like color, size, etc...
and be able to have price adjustments for those attributes.

It will also have an autoresponder 'confirmation email' that can be sent out
.... that will be compatible using frontpage cgi, aspemail, aspmail, cdonts,
or cdo

There will be a customer database included ... they will be able to send you
messages, but it will be a message system via a database ... and your
replies, they can look at online, as well as recieve the message in their
email via one of the email components. You will be able to turn all email
features off if you do not have a component ... and they will then have to
receive replies to their messages through their account login.

Also, I have already built the data classes, and this will be mysql and MS
sql compatible. Whichever you have available. I have already built the
"setup" scripts to create the database tables and stored procedures ...
instructions on manual setup will also be available ... and a testing page
that will test the setup will also be available.

Also, their has to be a write directory ... it will be called
coolpier_scripts_data. Although all of the products are stored in the
database ... I have found the performance has been greatly increased by
having text files with the html for the products. If the customer picks a
category ... the product layout is prebuilt product pages ... AND the
product's individual page is already prebuilt. This is rewritten when you
click update when editting a product.

Anyway ... soon to come. Sorry it is going to take me 3 months ... I am open
sourcing a contact_me, news_archive, faqs, forum, note keeper,
shopping_system, nice photo_album, and webmaster tools ... PLUS FULL ADMIN
TOOLS FOR ALL!!! The backend UI is taking 60% of the time.

All of these will be available in about 3 months.

ANYWAY
To further answer your question ... Session is fine, but in my experiences,
for the most part, those that disable cookies, also disable session cookies
because they don't know wtf they are doing. I would use cookies, and keep
sessions to a minimum. However, I would only keep the user_id, or some
unique id in the cookie ... and then keep the items in the database ... I
have found when creating my system, that you are going to hit the database
for the price and etc... anyway, when going to a cart ... it is better to
just search for their order than use an IN statement and sift through all
the products looking for a handful of product_ids.

Anyway, Hope this helps ... I will be on the NGs rarely until all of these
projects are done. These projects WILL get done!!! I make my money with
custom coding and intranet/ extranet business tools ... and even installing
these tool which are going to be open source. The people I work for couldn't
implement these tools if they tried.

for the most part ... all of these tools will be running on the same page,
using the querystring to control view ... like ...

view=products, or view=cart
view=contact_me, view=send_message
etc...

I will be supplying the dimensions of the table for the tool ... you will be
able to place any of these tools inside a table cell within your design. You
will be able to control the look through the admin tools ... which will
simply be manipulating the css files ... which you will never have to
manually touch (which are written by asp anyway).

Take care,

--
Brynn
[url]www.coolpier.com[/url]

*****
I reply and post to this newsgroup in an attempt to help other users.
I in no way guarantee the effects of scripts posted ...
and sometimes post partial scripts, untested to point users in the right
direction.

ALWAYS test my and everyone elses scripts before use ... duh ;)
*****
"Laphan" <news@DoNotEmailMe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Od2QeNN8DHA.2416@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> Hi Guys
>
> I know I asked about this before, but seeing as I got bugger all response

I

> thought I would word it a different way :0)
>
> Can you please give me any hints, tips, dos and don'ts for creating a full
> throttle eCommerce/Shopping Cart site.
>
> I've already took on board what Aaron said about using SQL Server over
> Access, but I need to know what other pitfalls should I avoid such as
> Sessions only or Sessions/DB for on-going orders?
>
> Has anybody got some good source code examples that I could get my teeth
> into?
>
> A real important aspect that I want to look at is that I want to try and
> create the cart as a fully working tool in the background so that another
> user could change the look of the site without having to get into or cock

up

> the coding.
>
> I know this is probably some kind of idealistic UDML (??) approach that

I've

> read about from a '20 man development team with a 180 meetings a week'
> story, but if I don't ask if you guys do it then I'll never know will I.
>
> Rgds
>
> Laphan
>
>

[Astra]

Hi Aaron

I like the bees site. Very clean and tidy, but the moving bees do it for
me. Novelty junkie!!

Is the below anywhere near the mark?

Rgds

Laphan


"Laphan" <news@DoNotEmailMe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:%23Te8Z7O8DHA.3804@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I'm being really thick here (I think), but in relation to the 'struck by
lightning' scenario can I just go through it to see if I get the principal
right:

1) User visits your site's home page.

2) You look at your on-going orders table for the next unique identifier.

3) You put this identifier in a session var.

4) You put the identifier/session var into a cookie. The cookie gets round
the lightning.

5) As client goes round the site and orders their goods, you put a
transaction line in the DB for each item with a field in the transaction
line holding the session var.

6) If the machine pops, they reboot and upon entering the site, the site
picks up the cookie and retrieves the order in it's current state.

7) They complete their order you add the transaction lines to a header
transaction (to store the invoice number, invoice date, etc) and then delete
the on-going transaction for the appropriate session.

Am I getting the drift???

What if they inadvertently block cookies cos their browser is picky??

Rgds

Laphan


Aaron Bertrand - MVP <aaron@TRASHaspfaq.com> wrote in message
news:e9iR6xN8DHA.1640@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

> Understand your comments re reluctance to give away code, but surely you

all

> had to learn from some form of template. Obviously you all created your
> cart in your own image, but you had to start from somewhere - right :0)

Speaking from personal experience, no, I decide the requirements (with help
from the client, of course), and build it from the ground up. So maybe
because of that I'm more reluctant than most. But I'm sure it's part of the
reason you don't find too many shopping carts out there "with free source
code."

> I'll be honest, I'm bamboozled by your comment re keeping 1 value in the
> session. I don't mean to hijack your code, I just want to understand the
> principle of why you would do this. What are the pros and cons of doing

it

> this way?

Keep state in the database. Minimize the amount of data that is passed
around from page to page. Minimize the amount of data that is kept in
memory while joe blow is reading the long description of the barley pea
coat.

If you do it right, a user can start a shopping cart, have their computer
struck by lightning, boot up the dusty Mac, and pick up where they left off
without remembering how many Dr. Pepper belts they decided on minutes ago.

> I'd really like to see some of the carts you've done, so could you post

the

> URLs of a few so I can see how the master does it.

[url]http://www.beeequipment.com/[/url] was built from scratch. Absolutely no 3rd
party components or utilities of any kind, other than a UPS database to
calculate shipping costs to specific zip codes / zip code ranges.

> Do I take it that my funny goal of having one side for the airy-fairy
> designers and one side for the coders, is actually a true bone afide
> procedure?

Why wouldn't it be?

> Yet again, I don't want to tread on anybody's toes, but how does this
> concept work?

Well, you give the designers an "interface" to stored procedures. They pass
data to the database (this doesn't really impact the layout), and when they
retrieve data for display, they do so however they please. Maybe you need
to ask a more specific question?

--
Aaron Bertrand
SQL Server MVP
[url]http://www.aspfaq.com/[/url]

[Kurt H Hanssen]

Try this URL

[url]http://www.urlogy.com/asp/ashopkart.asp[/url]

This is free and works.

kurt


"Laphan" <news@DoNotEmailMe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Od2QeNN8DHA.2416@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> Hi Guys
>
> I know I asked about this before, but seeing as I got bugger all response

I

> thought I would word it a different way :0)
>
> Can you please give me any hints, tips, dos and don'ts for creating a full
> throttle eCommerce/Shopping Cart site.
>
> I've already took on board what Aaron said about using SQL Server over
> Access, but I need to know what other pitfalls should I avoid such as
> Sessions only or Sessions/DB for on-going orders?
>
> Has anybody got some good source code examples that I could get my teeth
> into?
>
> A real important aspect that I want to look at is that I want to try and
> create the cart as a fully working tool in the background so that another
> user could change the look of the site without having to get into or cock

up

> the coding.
>
> I know this is probably some kind of idealistic UDML (??) approach that

I've

> read about from a '20 man development team with a 180 meetings a week'
> story, but if I don't ask if you guys do it then I'll never know will I.
>
> Rgds
>
> Laphan
>
>