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Footnotes in InDesign CS? - Adobe Indesign Windows

Dominic, "...(eg, a garland of "ibid"s)." Nice poetry. ;-) I'd considered that, but figured this would still allow one to get 25 footnotes on five lines -- not bad -- certainly not enough to write off the program entirely.... Here I thought I was the hardest man on the planet to please: Perhaps he should write his own software. As for me, I have to confess: I've mostly decided to learn to like endnotes. Mitra...

  1. #1

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    Dominic,

    "...(eg, a garland of "ibid"s)."

    Nice poetry. ;-)

    I'd considered that, but figured this would still allow one to get 25 footnotes on five lines -- not bad -- certainly not enough to write off the program entirely.... Here I thought I was the hardest man on the planet to please: Perhaps he should write his own software.

    As for me, I have to confess: I've mostly decided to learn to like endnotes.

    Mitra
    Kalavinka@adobeforums.com Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    Thanks, but I can't take credit for what I didn't write - the "garland of 'ibid's" phrase is one that has been hanging around in my mind for years - I'm pretty sure it came from the Chicago Manual of Style (14th ed), but I do know I didn't write it!
    Dominic_Hurley@adobeforums.com Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    I think that I am going to use Microsoft Publisher

    Despite the fact that I have a working version of Indesign, I went back to Word because at least it has autonumbering of footnotes, even if they do become a...confetti trail? ticker tape? kite's tail? of
    1. ibid.
    2. ibid.
    3. ibid.
    4. ibid.
    5. ibid.

    In design may be great for people that publish but for those of us the write and publish lacking this most basic of features is a pain in the brain.

    And then I have just found out that there is something called Microsoft Publisher. Unlike Indesign, I seem to be able to paste my word doents as objects just fine. They retain their formatting! I can add page numbering and other image files.

    There are lots of people bewailing the lack of footnotes. E.g.
    Timothy Takemoto "Footnotes!" 3/31/04 2:07am </cgi-bin/webx?13.2ccf27f7/19>
    While far from Ideal, Word and Publisher are not so bad.

    Indesign CS assumes that authors are not publishers.
    Timothy_Takemoto@adobeforums.com Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    InDesign assumes that authors are authors and designers are designers.
    Marilyn_Langfeld@adobeforums.com Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    > While far from Ideal, Word and Publisher are not so bad.

    If that MS-stuff satisfies you needs, go ahead.

    UR


    Uwe_Rottkamp@adobeforums.com Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    What amazes me is that there does not seem to be a way of pasting Word files keeping their footnotes. If you use that MS stuff then you can insert a Word page just like that. Okay, Word formatting (jumping images etc etc) stinks but if InDesign does not offer basic tools for writers (such as footnote auto numbering) then what choice is there? Have you written anything? If InDesign satisfies your needs as a writer then go ahead. But without footnotes it seems to be more basic than that MS stuff was generations ago.
    I think that Marilyn got it right when she said

    InDesign assumes that authors are authors and designers are designers.
    Since you are not p*ssed off with the inability of InDesign to be able
    to perform *basic* word processing functions, I assume that you are a
    cool designer. But I am even cooler! I am a writer and desinger! And I
    am not satisfied with InDesign.





    Get your act together Adobe.

    Tim
    Timothy_Takemoto@adobeforums.com Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    If InDesign does not offer basic tools for writers (such as footnote auto numbering) then what choice is there?

    Um, Framemaker, Ventura, TeX, Quark Xpress with AutoPage, or even ID with the footnotes plugin or simply by doing the footnotes manually. The simple fact is that ID is not primarily designed for writing doents or for laying out long doents. While it may not have the feature set I would like, I can't deny that it has targeted its market accurately. So, rather than it being a case of Adobe getting its act together, I think it's a matter of you choosing more suitable software for your workflow.
    Dominic_Hurley@adobeforums.com Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    I have tried the ID footnotes plugin, it was both basic and easy to crash (I had to be really careful while using it). Aditionally it was not cheap.

    Framemaker has issues with two byte characters apparently.
    TeX...yes..but it is not user friendly. Especially the two-byte character version. I could not get it to work.
    Perhaps I shoudl try Quark Express.

    I think that the market is changing. Software is getting so good that even non-designers, like me, are one step away from being able to design (if badly).

    Adobe is stil playing to the designer only market. I think that that there is a new growing, and potentially massive, market for people that write and want to design. Word is still crap at design (Those jumping images!! ach).

    Adobe is so close to being able to offer a Word beating package. Word does not have layers (is that the right terminology?), there is only one layer/dimesion in which to place text (excluding the header & footer layers). But Adobe is almost there. It is letting a small company in Virginia? or thereabouts produce a plugin for footnotes. This is not rockket science. If a plugin can almost do it then a bit of work on Adobe's part would get there.

    Get your act together Adobe!

    Tim
    Timothy_Takemoto@adobeforums.com Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    A small correction to post 16. I only said the first sentence that is attributed to me.

    I do believe that long doent features may come to InDesign. But it's first target was certainly Quark and then PageMaker. Why target Word anyway? Now FrameMaker is another thing. I do think InDesign beefed up with long doent features could be a great successor to FrameMaker, Ventura, etc. Since Adobe owns FrameMaker and is letting development slide (at least on the Mac side), it would be great to roll it into InDesign if that's possible. One problem might be that it might complicate things for non-book designers -- and writers.
    Marilyn_Langfeld@adobeforums.com Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?



    Adobe is so close to being able to offer a Word beating package.




    InDesign is a LONG way from "beating Word" as a word processor - and always will be. The dumbest thing Adobe could do would be to try to beard the Microsoft behemoth in its own lair.
    Stu_Bloom@adobeforums.com Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    Adobe is stil playing to the designer only market. I think that that there is a new growing, and potentially massive, market for people that write and want to design.

    Personally, I would hate to see ID become a word processor as well as a page layout app. I believe in horses for courses. You compose your text in a word processor and lay it out in a page layout app. Sure, I would like some long-doent features in ID to make my life easier, but I'm not looking to compose text in ID. As for the "massive" market, I just think you're wrong. I venture to say that most people in this forum would not want ID to add WP features and Word users would just get lost if they had to deal with DTP features.

    Be aware that XPress does not have native footnote support - you need the AutoPage plugin, and if you thought the ID plugin was expensive, you're not going to like the cost of AutoPage. I use Ventura for those doents that have lots of footnotes, but I still find manual placement gives the best results.
    Dominic_Hurley@adobeforums.com Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    I think that most of the people on this forum are proably designers so they would have little interest in word processing features since their creativity lies in the fact that they design.

    There are a lot more people out there that write. And we are used to paying designers to layout what we write. But software is getting so good, and cheap, that it will not be long before we writers are able to do our own designing. It won't be as good, of course, but a lot of the time it does not have to be. Then will not need publishers, we will be able to send our work to printers. And desk top publishing will have come of age.

    This is what I am doing but it is painful. With the traditional divide between designers and writers, both types of software are painfully inadequate to the integrated task.

    Desk top publishing software lacks the tools to facilitate writing. There are not all that many needed. Most of the tools Word provides are never used by most writers. Just the basics. Autonumbering, of not just footnotes, and a spell checker would be nice.

    Word with its lack of layers, and hence jumping images, is still probably closer to filling the gap.

    I recon there are a lot of frustrated writers that would pay to for DPT software just to be able to position text and images without it jumping around.

    By the way, does anyone know where I can hire a designer? For the cover of my text book. A place were people can bid would be nice.

    Tim
    Timothy_Takemoto@adobeforums.com Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    >
    > I recon there are a lot of frustrated writers that would pay to for DPT
    software just to be able to position text and images without it jumping
    around.

    I'll up that bet. :-) A couple years ago I spent some serious time trying
    to figure out how to use Word for some basic layout, and maybe it was my PM
    background or just density, but Word is the most complicated mess ever for
    basic layout....if you want control.

    But to an earlier point...Adobe isn't (conceivably) going to add writing
    tools to satisfy us, they probably do it to increase market share. After
    all, how many copies of Photoshop have been sold to folks who use 5% of its
    capabilities? From Adobe's standpoint, that's just perfect. :-)

    -John O


    JohnO@adobeforums.com Guest

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    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    This is what I am doing but it is painful. With the traditional divide between designers and writers, both types of software are painfully inadequate to the integrated task.

    Then I suggest it is your workflow and choice of software that is the problem, not the software per se. I routinely take reports of 400+ pages, with thousands of footnotes, illustrations, tables, cross-references, section numbering, and the like and I don't find it painful at all. The reports are written by people working in Word, I recive the Word files, run a macro over them to pretag them, and then import them into Ventura. I could use ID for this, but it lacks some of the features I want.

    Desk top publishing software lacks the tools to facilitate writing.

    It also lacks a full range of bitmap and vector editing tools, but that's why you buy Photoshop and Freehand. It has some basic text tools, but it's not a word processor.

    But software is getting so good, and cheap, that it will not be long before we writers are able to do our own designing.

    Sadly, the day is already here. And this is why we see so much badly set matter. Once upon a time, typesetters were able to impose a minimum standard on most printed matter; now we get "writers" who know nothing about typography who just want to save money and cut out the middlemen. And thus we get bad typography.
    Dominic_Hurley@adobeforums.com Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    There are times when one does not need good typography. My students would be happier with a textbook costing 8 dollars (if I lay it out) than one which costs 16 dollars (if I go through a publisher).

    I think that publishers are useful. The value added that they provide as far as I am concerned is editing and layout/design.

    And certainly, if I do the layout/design it will be poop compared to a professional like you.

    But frankly my students and I do not want layout and design.

    There are times when you want to eat a four course meal at a snazzy restaurant. There are times when you are happy with a hunk of bread.

    But the trouble with Word is that it the bread it produces is not even cooked.

    I routinely take reports of 400+ pages, with thousands of footnotes, illustrations,
    tables, cross-references, section numbering, and the like and I don't
    find it painful at all.




    That is because you do not write those reports. I do.

    I am not saying that the middle men can be cut out entirely, but once upon a time it was necessary to pay typesetters to move little bits of steel type from one place to another. That job was cut out.

    And similarly, when people want a sandwich, there will come a time when they don't have to pay for a 4 course meal. This is desktop publishing. And it will be here soon.

    Tim
    Timothy_Takemoto@adobeforums.com Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    > I am not saying that the middle men can be cut out entirely, but once upon a time it was necessary to pay typesetters to move little bits of steel type from one place to another. That job was cut out.

    Well, not completely:

    [url]http://elsa.photo.net/video/firefly-small.mov[/url]

    It's about 8 megs or so broadband is advised.

    Bob

    Bob_Levine Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    I'm thinking perhaps both Word & ID have been unduly "roughed up" on the distal end of this thread. They both used to frustrate me terribly, but now I think they are both marvelously advanced for their very different purposes (Word = word processing and editing / ID = book design and layout). Neither of these two softwares should be expected to do the work of the other.

    That said, it seems just a few small "long-doc" concessions on Adobe's part would take ID from "marvelous" to "stratospherically stellar" for those of us who have no other software choices for the kind of Unicode docs we handle.

    I don't see that much beyond a more helpful approach to importing footnote annotation and streamlining bullet and outline numbering that would be required of ID to make it way beautiful for long docs. For all the talk about ID not being the proper choice of software for this, fact is, it seems to be the only sophisticated design/layout program which doesn't turn Unicode & Asian double-byte character requirements into a colossal headache.

    So I'm not so sure it's fair to gripe that Adobe should "get its act together" here. I think it _already_ has its act together. I just wish they'd refine it a bit.

    Mitra
    Kalavinka Press
    Kalavinka@adobeforums.com Guest

  19. #19

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?

    Dominic,

    I just love this quote: "Sadly, the day is already here. And this is why we see so much badly set matter. Once upon a time, typesetters were able to impose a minimum standard on most printed matter; now we get 'writers' who know nothing about typography who just want to save money and cut out the middlemen. And thus we get bad typography."

    Dominic, there are some of us who have no choice but to do their own design and layout. As a monk, there's no other way I could publish so much material of an esoteric nature having no viable market-share audience. (i.e. material which no "for-profit" publisher could afford to publish.)

    So, getting past the obvious truth of your statement, have you come on any fairly comprehensive book design titles which might help some of us "hacks" produce genuinely beautifully-designed and tastefully typeset products? (Most of the titles I've perused seem to talk around all the of the topics in a rather "poetic" way without offering many genuinely useful guidelines for all of the parameters encountered in attempting design and layout.)

    Like I said: Some of us have no choice but to be auto-didacts in this sphere. Sure would be nice to find a book that really goes "hammer-and-tongs" at this topic, providing nitty-gritty detail for this discipline equivalent to what Chicago Manual of Style does for other aspects of the doent-creating process.

    Dharmamitra
    Kalavinka Press
    Kalavinka@adobeforums.com Guest

  20. #20

    Default Re: Footnotes in InDesign CS?



    So I'm not so sure it's fair to gripe that Adobe should "get its act together"
    here. I think it _already_ has its act together. I just wish they'd refine
    it a bit.




    I agree with the sentiment but not the terminology. I agree that Adobe is doing very well and that in order to make their product usuable from the first stages of book production they do not have too much to add -- I agree with your definition of the functionality that is missing. Adobe Indesign is like a soldier dressed up for parade in his finest uniform, bemedalled and tremenously equipped he stands there with his flies undone.

    It would not take much for Adobe to make that last bit of effort.

    Get your act together Adobe.
    Timothy_Takemoto@adobeforums.com Guest

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