Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't? - Macromedia Dreamweaver

[Alan Ames]

never on client sites.
sometimes (but not often) in admin type applications.

> Just curious.
> There seem to be a lot of people here who hate frames and recommend against
> using them.
> It makes me wonder if most people are not using them or are there still some
> diehards like me that are.
> thanks for your participation.

--
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver
Certified Dreamweaver MX Developer

[j.e.b.]

The problem with the usual retort about frames on this list, i.e.
'They're bad! They're bad!' is that such generalizations are pretty
easy to shoot down.

Here's a link from Zeldman.com's web site and is also linked to by many
of the CSS crowd and is valid XHTML -
[url]http://www.k10k.net/frames.aspx?section=patterns[/url]

Go figure...................

[Tom Hatfield webforumsuser@macromedia.com]

Not any more, if I want everything to line up nicely I use tables and put the information in them.

If you have to worry about any accessability issues don't ever use frames, as anyone with a disability will have heaps of trouble trying to access your site.

Tom

[Dan Vendel *GOF*]

John wrote:

> Just curious.
> There seem to be a lot of people here who hate frames and recommend against
> using them.
> It makes me wonder if most people are not using them or are there still some
> diehards like me that are.
> thanks for your participation.

John,

It's like with cars and accidents. It's not the car's fault, it's the
driver's.
Most people here don't hate frames at all. They don't like when
inexperienced people think the use of a frameset is a shortcut to
achieve what they want, and they don't realize the multitude of problems
they will encounter later on. But on top of that, it's extremely
annoying when you give advice to a newbie to trash the frameset idea,
they refuse (since it appear to be such an easy way to work) and then
they're back here after a month asking how to make two frames change in
one click and why their drop down menu in the top frame is cut off.
So, it's not the framesets that are bad. It's the user's unawareness.
Heck, I even use a frameset in my own site....
BTW: Try making a frameset validate (W3C) and also actually *work* in
e.g. IE, and you'll have another reason for insanity....

--
Dan Vendel - *GOF*
[url]http://www.vendel.info[/url]
Contact me directly by clicking here:
[url]http://contact.vendel.info[/url]
Formmail tutorial:
[url]http://www.vendel.info/tut/formmail.html[/url]
Nested table demonstration:
[url]http://www.vendel.info/tabletut/[/url]

[Murray *TMM*]

I said it. They are useless. Zeldman doesn't know pucky. There! 8)

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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"Dan Vendel *GOF*" <see_my_signature__the_bottom_of_the_post.com> wrote in
message news:3F110F6F.5000906_the_bottom_of_the_post.com. ..

> j.e.b. wrote:
>

> > The problem with the usual retort about frames on this list, i.e.
> > 'They're bad! They're bad!' is that such generalizations are pretty
> > easy to shoot down.

>
> j.e.b.,
> You've misunderstood. I don't think anyone here has said that they're
> bad - period. The general meaning is : "They're bad unless you're
> experienced enough to deal with their shortcomings", aiming at the
> relative beginner who doesn't know squat about the problems waiting
> further down the road.
>
> --
> Dan Vendel - *GOF*
> [url]http://www.vendel.info[/url]
> Contact me directly by clicking here:
> [url]http://contact.vendel.info[/url]
> Formmail tutorial:
> [url]http://www.vendel.info/tut/formmail.html[/url]
> Nested table demonstration:
> [url]http://www.vendel.info/tabletut/[/url]
>

[John]

Well, this has been very informative. people seem to have pretty strong
opinions about frames.
I'm going to try to continue this discussion above under the Subject Frames
Continued - Why I Hate them OR why I Still Use Them.
I'm also going to get more specific.
Thank you all for participating. Please continue above.

--
John

"Dan Vendel *GOF*" <see_my_signature__the_bottom_of_the_post.com> wrote in
message news:3F111465.3050300_the_bottom_of_the_post.com. ..

> John wrote:
>

> > Just curious.
> > There seem to be a lot of people here who hate frames and recommend

against

> > using them.
> > It makes me wonder if most people are not using them or are there still

some

> > diehards like me that are.
> > thanks for your participation.

>
> John,
>
> It's like with cars and accidents. It's not the car's fault, it's the
> driver's.
> Most people here don't hate frames at all. They don't like when
> inexperienced people think the use of a frameset is a shortcut to
> achieve what they want, and they don't realize the multitude of problems
> they will encounter later on. But on top of that, it's extremely
> annoying when you give advice to a newbie to trash the frameset idea,
> they refuse (since it appear to be such an easy way to work) and then
> they're back here after a month asking how to make two frames change in
> one click and why their drop down menu in the top frame is cut off.
> So, it's not the framesets that are bad. It's the user's unawareness.
> Heck, I even use a frameset in my own site....
> BTW: Try making a frameset validate (W3C) and also actually *work* in
> e.g. IE, and you'll have another reason for insanity....
>
> --
> Dan Vendel - *GOF*
> [url]http://www.vendel.info[/url]
> Contact me directly by clicking here:
> [url]http://contact.vendel.info[/url]
> Formmail tutorial:
> [url]http://www.vendel.info/tut/formmail.html[/url]
> Nested table demonstration:
> [url]http://www.vendel.info/tabletut/[/url]
>

[Murray *TMM*]

John:

Here's the quick summary -

1. Frames = scrollbar management hell
2. While on an inner page, refreshing the page causes the default frameset
to load
3. Printing can sometimes print the wrong frame
4. Bookmarking can be problematic
5. Alignment of images/page elements across frame borders is insane
6. Accessibility is dismal
7. Linking into an inner frameset page requires a specific javascript
burden on most (or all) pages
8. Frames and Browser History can cause problems (when changing multiple
frames from a single event)
9. Frames and navigation methodologies can be a problem (layers cannot span
frame boundaries)
10. Since the frameset is the top level page open in the browser, that's
the URL that will always appear in the address field.

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
==================
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==================

"John" <john.flaherty1comcast.net> wrote in message
news:berh3g$53g$1forums.macromedia.com...

> Well, this has been very informative. people seem to have pretty strong
> opinions about frames.
> I'm going to try to continue this discussion above under the Subject

Frames

> Continued - Why I Hate them OR why I Still Use Them.
> I'm also going to get more specific.
> Thank you all for participating. Please continue above.
>
> --
> John
>
> "Dan Vendel *GOF*" <see_my_signature__the_bottom_of_the_post.com> wrote

in

> message news:3F111465.3050300_the_bottom_of_the_post.com. ..

> > John wrote:
> >

> > > Just curious.
> > > There seem to be a lot of people here who hate frames and recommend

> against

> > > using them.
> > > It makes me wonder if most people are not using them or are there

still

> some

> > > diehards like me that are.
> > > thanks for your participation.

> >
> > John,
> >
> > It's like with cars and accidents. It's not the car's fault, it's the
> > driver's.
> > Most people here don't hate frames at all. They don't like when
> > inexperienced people think the use of a frameset is a shortcut to
> > achieve what they want, and they don't realize the multitude of problems
> > they will encounter later on. But on top of that, it's extremely
> > annoying when you give advice to a newbie to trash the frameset idea,
> > they refuse (since it appear to be such an easy way to work) and then
> > they're back here after a month asking how to make two frames change in
> > one click and why their drop down menu in the top frame is cut off.
> > So, it's not the framesets that are bad. It's the user's unawareness.
> > Heck, I even use a frameset in my own site....
> > BTW: Try making a frameset validate (W3C) and also actually *work* in
> > e.g. IE, and you'll have another reason for insanity....
> >
> > --
> > Dan Vendel - *GOF*
> > [url]http://www.vendel.info[/url]
> > Contact me directly by clicking here:
> > [url]http://contact.vendel.info[/url]
> > Formmail tutorial:
> > [url]http://www.vendel.info/tut/formmail.html[/url]
> > Nested table demonstration:
> > [url]http://www.vendel.info/tabletut/[/url]
> >

>
>

[DiMa]

Please have a look at the frames questions asked here and you'll see that
nearly every one begins with: I'm a newbie (or some variation of that theme).
Frames are definitely not for newbies. As I say in each of my frames replies,
they're intermediate-advanced - advanced and no one who does not have good
solid experience should even dare attempt them. Each reply that I make gives
the address to Thierry's frames quiz, and I let that be the deciding factor. If
you can pass, go ahead and use frames sparingly if you must. If you can't
pass...you have no business even considering them.

--
--
DiMa
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"j.e.b." <spamblockerno-spam.org> wrote in message
news:120720032122425911%spamblockerno-spam.org...

> The problem with the usual retort about frames on this list, i.e.
> 'They're bad! They're bad!' is that such generalizations are pretty
> easy to shoot down.
>
> Here's a link from Zeldman.com's web site and is also linked to by many
> of the CSS crowd and is valid XHTML -
> [url]http://www.k10k.net/frames.aspx?section=patterns[/url]
>
> Go figure...................

[Paul Taylor]

>
>Perhaps there is more that I'm missing, but I have no plans of
>ditching frames.
>
>C. Andrew Dunning - Landru Design - Nashville, TN
> [email]cadlandrudesign.com[/email]
> [url]www.landrudesign.com[/url]

What you are missing is that it makes no difference whether YOU have
problems - they cause problems for the user.

Read Jakob Nielson on frames at [url]www.useit.com[/url]. All web designers
should be aware of what Nielson is saying, even if we don't agree
100%. He gets things moving.


Paul Taylor

[Matthias Gutfeldt]

Paul Taylor wrote:

>>Perhaps there is more that I'm missing, but I have no plans of
>>ditching frames.
>>
>>C. Andrew Dunning - Landru Design - Nashville, TN
>> [email]cadlandrudesign.com[/email]
>> [url]www.landrudesign.com[/url]

>
>
> What you are missing is that it makes no difference whether YOU have
> problems - they cause problems for the user.
>
> Read Jakob Nielson on frames at [url]www.useit.com[/url]. All web designers
> should be aware of what Nielson is saying, even if we don't agree
> 100%. He gets things moving.

Hehe. Nielsen is a genius at self-marketing.


Matthias

[Paul Taylor]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:52:12 +0200, Matthias Gutfeldt <wortegmx.at>
wrote:

>Paul Taylor wrote:

>>>Perhaps there is more that I'm missing, but I have no plans of
>>>ditching frames.
>>>
>>>C. Andrew Dunning - Landru Design - Nashville, TN
>>> [email]cadlandrudesign.com[/email]
>>> [url]www.landrudesign.com[/url]

>>
>>
>> What you are missing is that it makes no difference whether YOU have
>> problems - they cause problems for the user.
>>
>> Read Jakob Nielson on frames at [url]www.useit.com[/url]. All web designers
>> should be aware of what Nielson is saying, even if we don't agree
>> 100%. He gets things moving.

>
>Hehe. Nielsen is a genius at self-marketing.
>
>
>Matthias
>

That's because he talks sense.


Paul Taylor