Professional Web Applications Themes

Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't? - Macromedia Dreamweaver

never on client sites. sometimes (but not often) in admin type applications. > Just curious. > There seem to be a lot of people here who hate frames and recommend against > using them. > It makes me wonder if most people are not using them or are there still some > diehards like me that are. > thanks for your participation. -- Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver Certified Dreamweaver MX Developer...

  1. #1

    Default Re: Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?

    never on client sites.
    sometimes (but not often) in admin type applications.
    > Just curious.
    > There seem to be a lot of people here who hate frames and recommend against
    > using them.
    > It makes me wonder if most people are not using them or are there still some
    > diehards like me that are.
    > thanks for your participation.
    --
    Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver
    Certified Dreamweaver MX Developer

    Alan Ames Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?

    The problem with the usual retort about frames on this list, i.e.
    'They're bad! They're bad!' is that such generalizations are pretty
    easy to shoot down.

    Here's a link from Zeldman.com's web site and is also linked to by many
    of the CSS crowd and is valid XHTML -
    [url]http://www.k10k.net/frames.aspx?section=patterns[/url]

    Go figure...................
    j.e.b. Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re:Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?

    Not any more, if I want everything to line up nicely I use tables and put the information in them.

    If you have to worry about any accessability issues don't ever use frames, as anyone with a disability will have heaps of trouble trying to access your site.

    Tom


    Tom Hatfield webforumsuser@macromedia.com Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?

    John wrote:
    > Just curious.
    > There seem to be a lot of people here who hate frames and recommend against
    > using them.
    > It makes me wonder if most people are not using them or are there still some
    > diehards like me that are.
    > thanks for your participation.
    John,

    It's like with cars and accidents. It's not the car's fault, it's the
    driver's.
    Most people here don't hate frames at all. They don't like when
    inexperienced people think the use of a frameset is a shortcut to
    achieve what they want, and they don't realize the multitude of problems
    they will encounter later on. But on top of that, it's extremely
    annoying when you give advice to a newbie to trash the frameset idea,
    they refuse (since it appear to be such an easy way to work) and then
    they're back here after a month asking how to make two frames change in
    one click and why their drop down menu in the top frame is cut off.
    So, it's not the framesets that are bad. It's the user's unawareness.
    Heck, I even use a frameset in my own site....
    BTW: Try making a frameset validate (W3C) and also actually *work* in
    e.g. IE, and you'll have another reason for insanity....

    --
    Dan Vendel - *GOF*
    [url]http://www.vendel.info[/url]
    Contact me directly by clicking here:
    [url]http://contact.vendel.info[/url]
    Formmail tutorial:
    [url]http://www.vendel.info/tut/formmail.html[/url]
    Nested table demonstration:
    [url]http://www.vendel.info/tabletut/[/url]

    Dan Vendel *GOF* Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?

    I said it. They are useless. Zeldman doesn't know pucky. There! 8)

    --
    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
    Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
    ==================
    [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url] - THE BEST WAY TO GET
    ANSWERS
    ==================
    [url]http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com[/url] - Template Triage!
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    [url]http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com[/url] - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
    [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/[/url] - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
    ==================

    "Dan Vendel *GOF*" <see_my_signature__the_bottom_of_the_post.com> wrote in
    message news:3F110F6F.5000906_the_bottom_of_the_post.com. ..
    > j.e.b. wrote:
    >
    > > The problem with the usual retort about frames on this list, i.e.
    > > 'They're bad! They're bad!' is that such generalizations are pretty
    > > easy to shoot down.
    >
    > j.e.b.,
    > You've misunderstood. I don't think anyone here has said that they're
    > bad - period. The general meaning is : "They're bad unless you're
    > experienced enough to deal with their shortcomings", aiming at the
    > relative beginner who doesn't know squat about the problems waiting
    > further down the road.
    >
    > --
    > Dan Vendel - *GOF*
    > [url]http://www.vendel.info[/url]
    > Contact me directly by clicking here:
    > [url]http://contact.vendel.info[/url]
    > Formmail tutorial:
    > [url]http://www.vendel.info/tut/formmail.html[/url]
    > Nested table demonstration:
    > [url]http://www.vendel.info/tabletut/[/url]
    >

    Murray *TMM* Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?

    Well, this has been very informative. people seem to have pretty strong
    opinions about frames.
    I'm going to try to continue this discussion above under the Subject Frames
    Continued - Why I Hate them OR why I Still Use Them.
    I'm also going to get more specific.
    Thank you all for participating. Please continue above.

    --
    John

    "Dan Vendel *GOF*" <see_my_signature__the_bottom_of_the_post.com> wrote in
    message news:3F111465.3050300_the_bottom_of_the_post.com. ..
    > John wrote:
    >
    > > Just curious.
    > > There seem to be a lot of people here who hate frames and recommend
    against
    > > using them.
    > > It makes me wonder if most people are not using them or are there still
    some
    > > diehards like me that are.
    > > thanks for your participation.
    >
    > John,
    >
    > It's like with cars and accidents. It's not the car's fault, it's the
    > driver's.
    > Most people here don't hate frames at all. They don't like when
    > inexperienced people think the use of a frameset is a shortcut to
    > achieve what they want, and they don't realize the multitude of problems
    > they will encounter later on. But on top of that, it's extremely
    > annoying when you give advice to a newbie to trash the frameset idea,
    > they refuse (since it appear to be such an easy way to work) and then
    > they're back here after a month asking how to make two frames change in
    > one click and why their drop down menu in the top frame is cut off.
    > So, it's not the framesets that are bad. It's the user's unawareness.
    > Heck, I even use a frameset in my own site....
    > BTW: Try making a frameset validate (W3C) and also actually *work* in
    > e.g. IE, and you'll have another reason for insanity....
    >
    > --
    > Dan Vendel - *GOF*
    > [url]http://www.vendel.info[/url]
    > Contact me directly by clicking here:
    > [url]http://contact.vendel.info[/url]
    > Formmail tutorial:
    > [url]http://www.vendel.info/tut/formmail.html[/url]
    > Nested table demonstration:
    > [url]http://www.vendel.info/tabletut/[/url]
    >

    John Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?

    John:

    Here's the quick summary -

    1. Frames = scrollbar management hell
    2. While on an inner page, refreshing the page causes the default frameset
    to load
    3. Printing can sometimes print the wrong frame
    4. Bookmarking can be problematic
    5. Alignment of images/page elements across frame borders is insane
    6. Accessibility is dismal
    7. Linking into an inner frameset page requires a specific javascript
    burden on most (or all) pages
    8. Frames and Browser History can cause problems (when changing multiple
    frames from a single event)
    9. Frames and navigation methodologies can be a problem (layers cannot span
    frame boundaries)
    10. Since the frameset is the top level page open in the browser, that's
    the URL that will always appear in the address field.

    --
    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
    Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
    ==================
    [url]news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver[/url] - THE BEST WAY TO GET
    ANSWERS
    ==================
    [url]http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com[/url] - Template Triage!
    [url]http://www.projectseven.com/go[/url] - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
    [url]http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com[/url] - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
    [url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/[/url] - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
    ==================

    "John" <john.flaherty1comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:berh3g$53g$1forums.macromedia.com...
    > Well, this has been very informative. people seem to have pretty strong
    > opinions about frames.
    > I'm going to try to continue this discussion above under the Subject
    Frames
    > Continued - Why I Hate them OR why I Still Use Them.
    > I'm also going to get more specific.
    > Thank you all for participating. Please continue above.
    >
    > --
    > John
    >
    > "Dan Vendel *GOF*" <see_my_signature__the_bottom_of_the_post.com> wrote
    in
    > message news:3F111465.3050300_the_bottom_of_the_post.com. ..
    > > John wrote:
    > >
    > > > Just curious.
    > > > There seem to be a lot of people here who hate frames and recommend
    > against
    > > > using them.
    > > > It makes me wonder if most people are not using them or are there
    still
    > some
    > > > diehards like me that are.
    > > > thanks for your participation.
    > >
    > > John,
    > >
    > > It's like with cars and accidents. It's not the car's fault, it's the
    > > driver's.
    > > Most people here don't hate frames at all. They don't like when
    > > inexperienced people think the use of a frameset is a shortcut to
    > > achieve what they want, and they don't realize the multitude of problems
    > > they will encounter later on. But on top of that, it's extremely
    > > annoying when you give advice to a newbie to trash the frameset idea,
    > > they refuse (since it appear to be such an easy way to work) and then
    > > they're back here after a month asking how to make two frames change in
    > > one click and why their drop down menu in the top frame is cut off.
    > > So, it's not the framesets that are bad. It's the user's unawareness.
    > > Heck, I even use a frameset in my own site....
    > > BTW: Try making a frameset validate (W3C) and also actually *work* in
    > > e.g. IE, and you'll have another reason for insanity....
    > >
    > > --
    > > Dan Vendel - *GOF*
    > > [url]http://www.vendel.info[/url]
    > > Contact me directly by clicking here:
    > > [url]http://contact.vendel.info[/url]
    > > Formmail tutorial:
    > > [url]http://www.vendel.info/tut/formmail.html[/url]
    > > Nested table demonstration:
    > > [url]http://www.vendel.info/tabletut/[/url]
    > >
    >
    >

    Murray *TMM* Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?

    Please have a look at the frames questions asked here and you'll see that
    nearly every one begins with: I'm a newbie (or some variation of that theme).
    Frames are definitely not for newbies. As I say in each of my frames replies,
    they're intermediate-advanced - advanced and no one who does not have good
    solid experience should even dare attempt them. Each reply that I make gives
    the address to Thierry's frames quiz, and I let that be the deciding factor. If
    you can pass, go ahead and use frames sparingly if you must. If you can't
    pass...you have no business even considering them.

    --
    --
    DiMa
    --------------------
    WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to your
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    "j.e.b." <spamblockerno-spam.org> wrote in message
    news:120720032122425911%spamblockerno-spam.org...
    > The problem with the usual retort about frames on this list, i.e.
    > 'They're bad! They're bad!' is that such generalizations are pretty
    > easy to shoot down.
    >
    > Here's a link from Zeldman.com's web site and is also linked to by many
    > of the CSS crowd and is valid XHTML -
    > [url]http://www.k10k.net/frames.aspx?section=patterns[/url]
    >
    > Go figure...................

    DiMa Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?

    >
    >Perhaps there is more that I'm missing, but I have no plans of
    >ditching frames.
    >
    >C. Andrew Dunning - Landru Design - Nashville, TN
    > [email]cadlandrudesign.com[/email]
    > [url]www.landrudesign.com[/url]
    What you are missing is that it makes no difference whether YOU have
    problems - they cause problems for the user.

    Read Jakob Nielson on frames at [url]www.useit.com[/url]. All web designers
    should be aware of what Nielson is saying, even if we don't agree
    100%. He gets things moving.


    Paul Taylor
    Paul Taylor Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?

    Paul Taylor wrote:
    >>Perhaps there is more that I'm missing, but I have no plans of
    >>ditching frames.
    >>
    >>C. Andrew Dunning - Landru Design - Nashville, TN
    >> [email]cadlandrudesign.com[/email]
    >> [url]www.landrudesign.com[/url]
    >
    >
    > What you are missing is that it makes no difference whether YOU have
    > problems - they cause problems for the user.
    >
    > Read Jakob Nielson on frames at [url]www.useit.com[/url]. All web designers
    > should be aware of what Nielson is saying, even if we don't agree
    > 100%. He gets things moving.
    Hehe. Nielsen is a genius at self-marketing.


    Matthias


    Matthias Gutfeldt Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?

    On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:52:12 +0200, Matthias Gutfeldt <wortegmx.at>
    wrote:
    >Paul Taylor wrote:
    >>>Perhaps there is more that I'm missing, but I have no plans of
    >>>ditching frames.
    >>>
    >>>C. Andrew Dunning - Landru Design - Nashville, TN
    >>> [email]cadlandrudesign.com[/email]
    >>> [url]www.landrudesign.com[/url]
    >>
    >>
    >> What you are missing is that it makes no difference whether YOU have
    >> problems - they cause problems for the user.
    >>
    >> Read Jakob Nielson on frames at [url]www.useit.com[/url]. All web designers
    >> should be aware of what Nielson is saying, even if we don't agree
    >> 100%. He gets things moving.
    >
    >Hehe. Nielsen is a genius at self-marketing.
    >
    >
    >Matthias
    >
    That's because he talks sense.


    Paul Taylor
    Paul Taylor Guest

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