G3 PB can't boot OS 9

[DaveC]

This is a refocused thread that was begun elsewhere in this NG and has
developed into a new problem.

I have succeeded in getting a proper, blessed OS 9 System Folder onto the
internal HD of my G3 PowerBook (Pismo). It won't boot, however. All I get is
the blinking folder with the "?".

The CD-ROM is dead (soon to be replaced by a combo drive), so I can't boot
the install CD. I copied a System Folder onto the PB's HD using a desktop Mac
connected to the PB via FireWire Target Disk Mode. But the copied System
Folder wouldn't bless (show the system's Smiley Face on the folder).

The secret turns out to be that you have to install OS 9 disk drivers on the
boot drive via Drive Setup. I initialized the PB's HD and re-copied the
System Folder. Now it appears to be blessed.

(And here comes the punch line...)

But it still won't boot.

This procedure is growing *very* tiring, very quickly. Almost enough to swear
me off of computers altogether (I did say "almost"...)

Any suggestions as to how I can get this *&@!(#* computer to boot the @Q(@*#$
blessed System Folder on the !)(!&^# internal HD, I will be eternally
grateful.

Thanks,
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[DaveC]

And just to be thorough, yes I've:

- Reset PRAM *many* times
- Booted with Opt key pressed: no options are presented
- Booted with Cmd-Opt-Shift-Delete pressed: no joy

I'm almost convinced that it is some parameter in NVRAM that is continuing to
look for OS X -- that was once installed, but it is not on this drive at all
(that drive crashed; this is the new replacement with nothing on it but an OS
9 System Folder).

I did look into the Open Firmware for a solution, but the data I could find
on the 'net seems to indicate that whatever OS X may have screwed with in
NVRAM is easily reset to defaults by resetting PRAM. So I didn't execute any
commands in OF.

Any ideas how to get this computer to boot?

Thanks,
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[Ernie Leimkuhler]

In article <0001HW.BB7EC6AC0001B22609EFA090@news.individual.n et>, DaveC
<dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> And just to be thorough, yes I've:
>
> - Reset PRAM *many* times
> - Booted with Opt key pressed: no options are presented
> - Booted with Cmd-Opt-Shift-Delete pressed: no joy
>
> I'm almost convinced that it is some parameter in NVRAM that is continuing to
> look for OS X -- that was once installed, but it is not on this drive at all
> (that drive crashed; this is the new replacement with nothing on it but an OS
> 9 System Folder).
>
> I did look into the Open Firmware for a solution, but the data I could find
> on the 'net seems to indicate that whatever OS X may have screwed with in
> NVRAM is easily reset to defaults by resetting PRAM. So I didn't execute any
> commands in OF.
>
> Any ideas how to get this computer to boot?
>
> Thanks,

Is the OS 9 folder a universal System Folder?
Many machines require specific extensions to boot.
Powerbooks especially require a system folder that is installed for
them and only them.

I take it you have no external harddrives that you can connect to both
a desktop Mac and your Powerbook.
You could just copy the installer to the external drive and use that to
install a proper system folder on the powerbook.

[DaveC]

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 0:52:02 -0700, Ernie Leimkuhler wrote
(in message <060920030052157137%ernie@stagesmith.com>):

> Is the OS 9 folder a universal System Folder?
> Many machines require specific extensions to boot.
> Powerbooks especially require a system folder that is installed for
> them and only them.
>
> I take it you have no external harddrives that you can connect to both
> a desktop Mac and your Powerbook.
> You could just copy the installer to the external drive and use that to
> install a proper system folder on the powerbook.

Thanks for your reply.

I do have an external FireWire drive. The problem is that the PB won't boot
from *any* source (remember, however, that I have no CD-ROM drive to boot
from; it will be fixed soon...). There is no System Folder that I can install
on any drive (external or internal) using the installer on the Desktop Mac
that the PB will boot from.

It is more and more likely that what you say is true about the PB needing a
specific installation of System Folder, since anything I install on the PB
using the desktop Mac (via Target Disk Mode) isn't working.

Thanks again.

Other ideas?
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[Howard S Shubs]

In article <0001HW.BB7F363A00025D6B09F3BF10@news.individual.n et>,
DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> It is more and more likely that what you say is true about the PB needing a
> specific installation of System Folder, since anything I install on the PB
> using the desktop Mac (via Target Disk Mode) isn't working.

The time I tried installing on the PB using target disk mode I found the
installer wouldn't let me.

Also, the Wallstreet won't boot from a Firewire card. I've tried it.
So if you don't have a CD-ROM drive or maybe a SCSI drive hooked to the
external SCSI port, you're just screwed.

--
Today, on Paper-view: Pulp Fiction!

[sam grey]

In article <060920030052157137%ernie@stagesmith.com>,
Ernie Leimkuhler <ernie@stagesmith.com> wrote:

> Is the OS 9 folder a universal System Folder?
> Many machines require specific extensions to boot.
> Powerbooks especially require a system folder that is installed for
> them and only them.

Yes, I was going to suggest this, too. OS 9 was
machine-dependent. OS X is much more machine-agnostic.

[DaveC]

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 9:53:28 -0700, sam grey wrote
(in message <cio6b.372872$YN5.250064@sccrnsc01>):

> In article <060920030052157137%ernie@stagesmith.com>,
> Ernie Leimkuhler <ernie@stagesmith.com> wrote:

>> Is the OS 9 folder a universal System Folder?
>> Many machines require specific extensions to boot.
>> Powerbooks especially require a system folder that is installed for
>> them and only them.

> Yes, I was going to suggest this, too. OS 9 was
> machine-dependent. OS X is much more machine-agnostic.

I am leaning toward this conclusion. However, it would be easier to believe
if the PB at least *started* to boot the System and halted. This would tell
me that it was really the OS version that was the problem. But now it doesn't
even recognize there's an OS on the HD at all.

Awaiting a replacement CD-ROM drive solution...
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[DaveC]

The Mac OS ROM file that is (sometimes) included in the System Folder is
needed to boot OS 9 on some computers. Once I copied this to the system
folder (using Targed Disk Mode) the computer booted for the first time in
weeks.

Why the OS installer won't install this file in the System Folder on an
external drive that might be used to boot *any* model of computer is beyond
me.

Thanks to all who contributed suggestions,
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[Wayne C. Morris]

In article <0001HW.BB8124D30000785A09EC2380@news.individual.n et>,
DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> The Mac OS ROM file that is (sometimes) included in the System Folder
> is needed to boot OS 9 on some computers. Once I copied this to the
> system folder (using Targed Disk Mode) the computer booted for the
> first time in weeks.
>
> Why the OS installer won't install this file in the System Folder on
> an external drive that might be used to boot *any* model of computer
> is beyond me.

Two reasons:

1) You forgot to tell it to make it bootable on any Mac.

2) There's no reason for the installer to assume that the external drive
will ever be used on another computer.

The installer gives you a choice of installing a system "for any Mac" or
"for this Mac". The first choice makes sure it's bootable on any Mac
supported by that OS; the second choice leaves out files that aren't
needed by the Mac it's being installed on.

Whether the drive is external or internal is irrelevant. The user might
intend to use his external drive only on one Mac, and doesn't want the
extra support files that are needed by other Macs. (That was true for
me back when I was using ZIP disks as emergency boot disks.) Or the
user might install the OS on an *internal* drive that he'll be
transferring into another Mac, so he needs it to be bootable on any Mac.

[Steve Modica]

Is this an "old world" vs "new world" thing? (IE old world systems need
that prom image?

Wayne C. Morris wrote:

> In article <0001HW.BB8124D30000785A09EC2380@news.individual.n et>,
> DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:
>
>

>>The Mac OS ROM file that is (sometimes) included in the System Folder
>>is needed to boot OS 9 on some computers. Once I copied this to the
>>system folder (using Targed Disk Mode) the computer booted for the
>>first time in weeks.
>>
>>Why the OS installer won't install this file in the System Folder on
>>an external drive that might be used to boot *any* model of computer
>>is beyond me.

>
>
> Two reasons:
>
> 1) You forgot to tell it to make it bootable on any Mac.
>
> 2) There's no reason for the installer to assume that the external drive
> will ever be used on another computer.
>
> The installer gives you a choice of installing a system "for any Mac" or
> "for this Mac". The first choice makes sure it's bootable on any Mac
> supported by that OS; the second choice leaves out files that aren't
> needed by the Mac it's being installed on.
>
> Whether the drive is external or internal is irrelevant. The user might
> intend to use his external drive only on one Mac, and doesn't want the
> extra support files that are needed by other Macs. (That was true for
> me back when I was using ZIP disks as emergency boot disks.) Or the
> user might install the OS on an *internal* drive that he'll be
> transferring into another Mac, so he needs it to be bootable on any Mac.

[Gregory Weston]

In article <3F5C6D0C.9080003@comcast.net>,
Steve Modica <svmodica@comcast.net> wrote:

> Is this an "old world" vs "new world" thing? (IE old world systems need
> that prom image?

That's precisely backwards. "New world" refers to the subset of machines
that have a comparatively small actual ROM but a large file that
replaces most of what the Mac had previously had in silicon.

G

[Alec McKenzie]

In article <0001HW.BB83341500095092102510B0@news.individual.n et>, DaveC
<dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> Certain ("new world") Macintosh computers do not have a ROM chip on-board,
> but instead have the ROM code loaded in at boot time.

Well, I always knew that Macs were clever little beasts, but this
smacks of the supernatural...

If there is no ROM chip on-board, where does the code come from that
loads the ROM code at boot time? Is it somehow conjured up out of thin
air?

--
Alec McKenzie
[email]mckenzie@despammed.com[/email]

[Andrew J. Brehm]

DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:29:16 -0700, Alec McKenzie wrote
> (in message <43401f624bd36e219f56ca2a09afb815@news.teranews.co m>):
>

> > If there is no ROM chip on-board, where does the code come from that
> > loads the ROM code at boot time? Is it somehow conjured up out of thin
> > air?

>
> Yes, yes, yes. Of course there must be *some* code in ROM. (Can't we make
> *any* assumptions here on usenet???)
>
> The Macintosh Toolbox Rom (how's that?) is not included in hardware, but
> software in these "new world" Macintosh computers.
>
> Better?

This might help:

[url]http://www.netneurotic.net/mac/openfirmware.html[/url]

--
Andrew J. Brehm
Fan of Woody Allen
PowerPC User
Supporter of Pepperoni Pizza

[Mike Hutchison]

> On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:53:28 +0100, sam grey wrote:

>> Ernie Leimkuhler <ernie@stagesmith.com> wrote:

>

>> Is the OS 9 folder a universal System Folder?
>> Many machines require specific extensions to boot.
>> Powerbooks especially require a system folder that is installed for
>> them and only them.

>
> Yes, I was going to suggest this, too. OS 9 was
> machine-dependent. OS X is much more machine-agnostic.

Also, a lot of G3's require a firmware update to run MacOS 9.
Unfortunately you will need either OS 8.6 (I think) or 9.x to run the
installer, depending on the Mac you're updating.
--
Regards,
Micheal Hutchison
Email: [email]MadMike@graphixmad.plus.com[/email]
Mac-Troubleshooter+OE FAQ: [url]www.graphixmad.plus.com[/url]