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How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities - Mac Applications & Software

My iBook (Mac OS 9.2) is starting to run a bit slow and I suspect the problem may be that the Catalog B Tree is in 10 fragments and the Desktop file is in 3 fragments. I've already defragmented all the other files. I just bought Norton Utilities 8.0 so I can run both SpeedDisk and the System from the CD. I thought that would solve my problem, but I still can't defragment the Catalog B Tree or the 2 desktop files, even when I start up from the Norton CD. SpeedDisk says the files are in use, and no ...

  1. #1

    Default How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    My iBook (Mac OS 9.2) is starting to run a bit slow and I suspect the
    problem may be that the Catalog B Tree is in 10 fragments and the
    Desktop file is in 3 fragments. I've already defragmented all the
    other files.

    I just bought Norton Utilities 8.0 so I can run both SpeedDisk and the
    System from the CD. I thought that would solve my problem, but I still
    can't defragment the Catalog B Tree or the 2 desktop files, even when
    I start up from the Norton CD. SpeedDisk says the files are in use,
    and no combination of starting from the CD/HD/running the application
    from disk solves this problem. I'm guessing this is because my hard
    disk is bootable and I can access the files etc even when started up
    from the CD.

    Could anyone please tell me how to defragment these files?? (and how
    important it is that I do so?) I've searched the Symantec knowledge
    base etc. but I can't find any answers, and I don't really understand
    how the Catalog, Norton etc work...

    Thanks!
    Chris :)
    Chris Guest

  2. Moderated Post

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

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    Matthew Guest
    Moderated Post

  3. #3

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    In article <adelaide.on.net>,
    Matthew Smith <com> wrote:
     
    >
    > It sounds like you are still booting from your hard disk. If you are
    > booting from the CD then Speed Disk will unmount your hard disk and then
    > defragment.
    >
    > To boot up from the CD hold down the C key. The CD icon should then be
    > the one in the top-right corner.[/ref]

    In addition while in Speed Disk there will be icons next to the drive
    of the volume that is running the system software, and the volume
    running the Speed Disk application. Make sure both are next to the CD
    volume.

    --
    Christopher S. Moore
    us
    Email replies must begin with "Re: " in Subject line or be killed.
    Chris Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    > It sounds like you are still booting from your hard disk. If you are 

    I did startup from the CD. It had the Norton Utilities CD desktop and
    the Norton CD icon was in the top left. My normal extensions etc
    didn't load and the system was definitely running from CD. Those files
    were still open, however and evidently Speed Disk didn't unmount the
    HD as you suggest it should have. Is there any way to force it to do
    so?

    Again, I found the manual etc. unhelpful. It seems to me that NUM
    really *should* be able to defragment those files because it says
    fragmentation is "severe" on account of fragmented directories...

    Thanks very much for your suggestion, anyway.

    Chris.
    Chris Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    to quote a previous post: Norton utilities is evil - don't use it -
    especially in OSX.

    Regarding defrag'ing in OS9, I doubt it's worth doing but sounds like
    you're doing it correctly if you're booting off the CD.

    Chris wrote:
     

    George Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    In article <google.com>,
    com (Chris) wrote:
     
    >
    > I did startup from the CD. It had the Norton Utilities CD desktop and
    > the Norton CD icon was in the top left.[/ref]

    The top *left*? Is this a Windows system?
     

    --
    Tom Stiller

    PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
    7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF
    Tom Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    > On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 10:29:02 +0100, Matthew Smith wrote:
     

    It's called 'optimizing' and it'll take quite a while (0.5 to 1hr or more) to
    do it, depending and the amount and size of the files on the disk.
    --
    Regards,
    Micheal Hutchison
    Email: plus.com
    Mac-Troubleshooter+OE FAQ: www.graphixmad.plus.com

    Mike Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities



    George wrote:
     

    HAHA !!! i like this vacabulary ; but the problem of Norton being evil is
    not in Norton but in the osx bug !!! ..
    that sets priviliges on all disks ..
    Please read my article i posted a little part from here
    " OS X 10.2.6 CORRUPTS ALL HARDDISKS UNDER OS9 " still no resiliant
    reactions on that but the first article has all the relevant data ..
    And if you have osx10.2.6 now on your system then as i elaborately explain
    in my article you are in the beginning of trouble and norton is not going to
    make it easier ..

    Sincerely

    Kay Belik
     [/ref]



    Kay Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    Kay <nl> wrote:
     

    For many years, long before OS X existed, there have been many people
    who've felt Norton is evil. I'm not among that group, but it has
    existed probably nearly as long as there's been a Norton Utilities for
    Macintosh. So the contention that it's evil has nothing to do with
    anything you've said.
     

    What I failed to see in that post are any references to support anything
    you wrote.

    --
    Mike Rosenberg

    <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida
    <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart
    Mike Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities



    Mike Rosenberg wrote:
     
    >
    > For many years, long before OS X existed, there have been many people
    > who've felt Norton is evil. I'm not among that group, but it has
    > existed probably nearly as long as there's been a Norton Utilities for
    > Macintosh. So the contention that it's evil has nothing to do with
    > anything you've said.

    >
    > What I failed to see in that post are any references to support anything
    > you wrote.[/ref]

    What do you mean... Its spelled out.
     

    Kay Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities



    Kay wrote:
     
    > >
    > > For many years, long before OS X existed, there have been many people
    > > who've felt Norton is evil. I'm not among that group, but it has
    > > existed probably nearly as long as there's been a Norton Utilities for
    > > Macintosh. So the contention that it's evil has nothing to do with
    > > anything you've said.
    > > 
    > >
    > > What I failed to see in that post are any references to support anything
    > > you wrote.[/ref]
    >
    > What do you mean... Its spelled out.[/ref]

    You have all the facts laid out .. Do the tests as described .. and you will
    start to understand the seriousness ..
    If you're the apple professor that you claim to be .. you will forgive me for
    standing on your toos.

    As i said .. the problem here is time .. for the full round you will need a lot
    of props (described in the first article of Charlie) .. but well .. i stay
    arround a day ; do my apple duty ... and then i go back to attend a normal
    business .. witch is not hanging out in newsgroups .. or this has to go 'strange'
    turns ..

    Kay
     [/ref]

    --
    Design & Authoring
    [ Danda] [ D&A] | New Media Solutions | New Media Development
    [ audio - video - 3d - cd-rom - dvd - web - virtual crm ]

    Bezoek de Websites voor meer informatie:

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    Kay Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    Kay <nl> wrote:
     
    > >
    > > What do you mean... Its spelled out.[/ref]
    >
    > You have all the facts laid out ..[/ref]

    It's spelled out all right, entirely by you. What I'm asking for are
    some outside references to support anything you've written.
     

    Do the tests as described, huh? "3 hours minimum," you said. Yeah,
    right, I'm really going to spend all that time.

    --
    Mike Rosenberg

    <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida
    <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart
    Mike Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    Mike Rosenberg <invalid> wrote:
     

    It appears, though, that someone else did try to te what you saw
    and was unable to do so:

    <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=FNv9b.
    14810%24Cu3.11893%40edtnps84>

    --
    Mike Rosenberg

    <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida
    <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart
    Mike Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities



    Mike Rosenberg wrote:
     
    > >
    > > You have all the facts laid out ..[/ref]
    >
    > It's spelled out all right, entirely by you. What I'm asking for are
    > some outside references to support anything you've written.[/ref]

    I've demonstrated the whole proces to Edo Boxman from Appledealer Guide
    (Hilversum)
    He really got the picture.
    Appledealer Stonehouse (Woerden: Frank van der Wilk) is informed and aware of the
    problems.
    Previous Appledealer Chipmunk (Eindhoven) experienced the problem themselves.
    Others aware are outside what you could use as a reference .. Make it yourself; as
    i painstakingly report ; this is no joke ore hoax.
     
    >
    > Do the tests as described, huh? "3 hours minimum," you said. Yeah,
    > right, I'm really going to spend all that time.[/ref]

    Well suite yourselve, but then if you do'nt ....
    Please don't discurage others to do so .. This is the type of behaviour i see in
    all newsgroups at this time .. I really wonder ..
    Most that reacted up till now have been filled up with arogance .. in stead of
    aktion and knowledge of this matter.

    I make it simpel:
    take a os9 / os10.2.6 system set ; any G4- 400 +
    Use Norton 5 or 6 under os9 and do the standard disktest on all available volumes.

    (You can passbye the first media checking option and the fourth files checking
    thing aswell .. )
    The massages that you emidiately will start to get are why people now tell that
    norton is evil ..

    And yes if you choose to repair your disk and data will be lost.

    But as i promote : it is the other way arround: Norton sees a very 'delicate'
    problem that goes like
    - big problems with the driver descriptor index
    - big problems with the partition index
    - the volume header block has big problems
    - the alternative header block is in pain and so is
    - the catalog B-tree

    I had the list typed over from several screendumps of the whole proces; but i cant
    dump them now because most of these newsgroups do not support dumps ..

    If you don't mind; you lost maybe 15 minutes .. but make shure the exact set

    Then if you are interested to get rid of those messages; start reading and doing
    the Charlie;
    OS X 10.2.6 CORRUPTS ALL HARDDISKS UNDER OS9

    Witch involves formatting and going back to os10.2.1/2

    Cheers

    Kay
     

    --
    Design & Authoring
    [ Danda] [ D&A] | New Media Solutions | New Media Development
    [ audio - video - 3d - cd-rom - dvd - web - virtual crm ]

    Bezoek de Websites voor meer informatie:

    HOOFDSITE
    http://www.danda.nl

    DATABASEPRODUCTEN
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    http://www.bizz-software.com

    PORTFOLIO SITE
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    CONTACTINFORMATIE
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    fax +31(0)73 6415878


    Kay Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    In article <nl>, Kay <nl> wrote:
     
    >
    > HAHA !!! i like this vacabulary ; but the problem of Norton being evil is
    > not in Norton but in the osx bug !!! ..[/ref]

    i'll bet its norton
     

    sets it to what?
     

    you mean irrelevant data.
     

    i shuttle files back and forth between osx 10.2.6 and os 9.2 several
    times a day without a problem. and diskwarrior agrees with me.
    nospam Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    They didn't te anything .. They just say they did .. or did not even
    mention that they did and they did not mention a thing about there versions
    of operating systems , use of norton etc . . . Just very comfortable answers
    ...

    Kay

    Mike Rosenberg wrote:
     
    >
    > It appears, though, that someone else did try to te what you saw
    > and was unable to do so:
    >
    > <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=FNv9b.
    > 14810%24Cu3.11893%40edtnps84>
    >
    > --
    > Mike Rosenberg
    >
    > <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida
    > <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart[/ref]

    --
    Design & Authoring
    [ Danda] [ D&A] | New Media Solutions | New Media Development
    [ audio - video - 3d - cd-rom - dvd - web - virtual crm ]

    Bezoek de Websites voor meer informatie:

    HOOFDSITE
    http://www.danda.nl

    DATABASEPRODUCTEN
    http://www.digital-software.nl
    http://www.bizz-software.com

    PORTFOLIO SITE
    http://www.digital-media.nl

    CONTACTINFORMATIE
    tel. +31(0)73 6446119 / b.g.g. +31(0)6 22985410
    fax +31(0)73 6415878


    Kay Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    Kay <nl> wrote:
     

    Ever since shortly after Disk Warrior came out, it's the first disk
    repair utility I've run on any volume I've tested. It's very common
    advice in this newsgroup to use DW followed by either Norton Disk Doctor
    or TechTool Pro.

    --
    Mike Rosenberg

    <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida
    <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart
    Mike Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    In what way does this remark refer to the previous ?

    is this a standard answering machine ? Hellooo !!!

    Hee Professor I'd like to join the JWolf club, diaper him her, be diaperd if
    it makes people in this group feel fine as long as i do not have to put my
    serious efforts towards people that call themselves "Apple Consultants"
    where they are not capable of giving any dedication .. other than attent
    really funny idiotic hilarious discussions .. but precisely .. shouldn't
    that or couldn't that move to another group ? Up till now you and others
    from the same group act like amateurs .. I came to this group because it
    aught to take up and give information on Apple/mac issues .. and the most
    practised thing it does is 'calling names, asking stupid questions and NOT
    giving any precise or helpfull information on the more difficult issues .. '

    I read down the "Ik killed Apple" posting ; and the reasons called in that
    article are precisely meant for all the people in this group who fling with
    mud, call names and act like really spoiled retards .. as to a newby ..

    Maybe its humor but again i do not see how it should be appropriate ?
    Get a life ! or start doing those darn tests !!! (1 or 2 postings back from
    here)

    Kay

    Mike Rosenberg wrote:
     
    >
    > Ever since shortly after Disk Warrior came out, it's the first disk
    > repair utility I've run on any volume I've tested. It's very common
    > advice in this newsgroup to use DW followed by either Norton Disk Doctor
    > or TechTool Pro.
    >
    > --
    > Mike Rosenberg
    >
    > <http://www.macconsult.com> Macintosh consulting services for NE Florida
    > <http://bogart-tribute.net> Tribute to Humphrey Bogart[/ref]

    Kay Guest

  19. #19

    Default Re: How do I defragment catalog B-tree using Norton Utilities

    Kay <nl> writes:
    [...] 
    That seems a reasonable reason to think Norton is evil. It is clear
    from your posts that Norton "sees" a problem with the file system and
    will destroy it with its attempted recovery. It's not clear from your
    description how to demonstrate problems without using Norton 5/6.
     
    The original post said that "OS X.2.6 sets deadly privileges" and that
    each of these harddisk sectors are set to lock.

    I don't believe the driver descriptor index is a part of the filesystem.
    I presume this is in reference to block 0, the location of the driver
    descriptor map. It's been a long time since I saw that code, so there
    very well maybe some sort of attribute or reserved field set by OS X.
    I don't see how it could bother OS 9, though. If the map points to a
    correct driver, it shouldn't be updated. If it doesn't, I don't think
    it will work under OS 9 right off the bat. If Norton sees a problem
    here, I suspect it's just something Norton doesn't understand, not
    something that will bother OS 9.2.

    I'm not sure what the "partition index" is. Is this a reference to
    the partition map? Like the driver descriptor map, I think it's
    entirely possible that there may exist an attribute/reserved field set by
    OS X. But this is also something that is not changed in daily use, and
    should either work or not. As long as the size/location of the partitions
    are correct, this shouldn't bother OS 9.2.

    The volume header block *is* a part of the file system, and does have
    an attributes field. One of the flags in this field is a lock.
    (see <http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1150.html#BTrees>)
    It's highly unlikely that kHFSVolumeSoftwareLockBit is set -- if it were,
    OS 9.2 would refuse to write to the volume at all. It is possible
    that 10.2.6 is setting one of the reserved bits (0-7, 12-14), and this
    is confusing Norton.

    But please note: the behavior for reserved bits *is* defined by the spec,
    in a manner consistent with how reserved bits are used everywhere else in
    programming. If OS 9 does not use those reserved bits, it will set them
    to zero if it creates the structure, will preserve the values in the bits
    if they are already set, and will *ignore* the value of the bits entirely.
    If OS 9 reacts badly to an attribute flag that it doesn't understand, it
    is NOT the fault of 10.2.6. It would be the older system that is buggy.
    If Norton does not ignore those values but insists that they be zero, it
    is explicitly breaking forward compatibility for their program in the
    interest of making things appear as they expect. That's a design decision
    on Norton's part, and if true means that Norton should NOT be used for
    ANY operating system more recent than the one current at the time Norton
    produced its product--which given Norton's reputation here, would not
    be surprising.

    The alternative header block is just a redundant copy of the volume header.
    I would expect whatever "problem" detected in the volume header to appear
    in the alternate header as well, assuming a healthy filesystem.

    I'm not sure how the catalog b-tree file itself would be locked. The
    catalog folder records inside it does contain a flags field (should be
    treated as reserved) and a permissions field. The permissions field *is*
    defined, and correspond to the standard Unix permissions. OS 8 ignored
    this field entirely, setting it to zero on folders it made. I can pretty
    much guarantee this is being set by OS X, and Norton may certainly
    expect it to be zero. Setting it to zero would likely do very bad things
    to OS X. OS 9.2 should be able to deal with any permissions set by OS X,
    though if it recognizes and semi-honors the permissions (e.g. treating a
    file with no write permissions as if the read only bit were set) I could
    see some files not behaving as you would expect. But I don't know if
    OS 9 does that, and it shouldn't have a bad effect on the file system
    as a whole.

    Your original post also said that the permissions won't get taken away
    by taking out the drive and reformatting it into NTFS. I presume this
    is only in reference to the driver block. If you can make the drive
    bootable under NT, that should overwrite the descriptor map.
    Mac/Windows/Linux all have utitlies to let you overwrite the whole drive
    with zeroes as well.

    Do you have a scenario that shows the "deadly permissions" without using
    an old Norton utility? I saw dire warnings and detailed instructions on
    how to "decontaminate" the drives, but no instructions on how to
    demonstrate a real problem on OS 9. I presume you're using the latest
    10.2.6 with 9.2.2?

    If the problem really lies with 10.2.6 setting "deadly permissions",
    the bug is probably with 9.2.2. If it doesn't understand a previously
    unused field, it should be *ignoring* it.
    --
    Dale J. Stephenson
    com
    3/27/87 -- Ed Hearn for David Cone. 12/20/02 -- Millwood for Estrada
    Schuerholz has finally topped himself.
    Dale Guest

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