How to boot a "copied" (9.1) System Folder?

[DaveC]

My PowerBook's hard drive crashed. I replaced it with a new one and
successfully copied the data (including the old system files: OS 9.2.2 and OS
X 10.2.6) from the backup drive onto the new drive using a desktop Mac via
FireWire Target Disk Mode.

Now the PB won't boot. All I get is the black apple on gray background (the
PB was last running -- before the crash -- on OS X).

I can't boot the OS CD on the PB because my CD-ROM drive, I suspect, is
having problems. (I've replaced it with a new combo drive, and haven't had
the opportunity to confirm its functionality. It remains an unknown in the
troubleshooting formula...)

The only option I could see was to delete the system folders (9.2.2 and X)
and copy the System Folder from the OS 9.1 CD onto the PB's HD via Target
Disk Mode. PB wouldn't boot this copied system; just the gray screen with
black apple.

(BTW, I can't install OS 9.1 on the PB via Target Disk Mode; the installer
says "You must boot the installer CD [on the PB] to install the OS there.")

What are my options? How can I get this copied system to boot the PB? I tried
resetting PRAM. Is there something I can do in the firmware screen to boot
this OS? Since I can't boot the OS CD, I can't change the Startup Disk
setting.

I'm going to address the CD drive, but I'd like to find a way to boot the HD
before I fix the CD.

PowerBook G3/400

Thanks,
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[Frederick Cheung]

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, DaveC wrote:

> My PowerBook's hard drive crashed. I replaced it with a new one and
> successfully copied the data (including the old system files: OS 9.2.2 and OS
> X 10.2.6) from the backup drive onto the new drive using a desktop Mac via
> FireWire Target Disk Mode.
>

You would probably have better luck copying just OS 9 and trying to boot
into that. OS X doesn't really like being copied about like that (and if
you just copied the stuff accross in the finder you may have missed
certain invisble folders like /bin and not been able to copy other items
due to privilege issues)

Fred

[Christoph Gartmann]

In article <0001HW.BB7D61BF00005C8309F3CC20@news.individual.n et>, DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> writes:

>My PowerBook's hard drive crashed. I replaced it with a new one and
>successfully copied the data (including the old system files: OS 9.2.2 and OS
>X 10.2.6) from the backup drive onto the new drive using a desktop Mac via
>FireWire Target Disk Mode.
>
>Now the PB won't boot. All I get is the black apple on gray background (the
>PB was last running -- before the crash -- on OS X).

You cannot copy an OSX system folder this way. I have no idea if you can do
that with an OS9 system folder under OSX, under OS9 it is no problem.

>I can't boot the OS CD on the PB because my CD-ROM drive, I suspect, is
>having problems. (I've replaced it with a new combo drive, and haven't had
>the opportunity to confirm its functionality. It remains an unknown in the
>troubleshooting formula...)

That's bad.

>The only option I could see was to delete the system folders (9.2.2 and X)
>and copy the System Folder from the OS 9.1 CD onto the PB's HD via Target
>Disk Mode. PB wouldn't boot this copied system; just the gray screen with
>black apple.

The first question is whether you PowerBook is old enough to boot from OS 9.1.
Provided it is, you have to tell your PowerBook to use the folder in question.
In addition, the folder has to be "blessed", that is, it should be marked by
the system as such a folder.

You may try to boot your Powerbook holding down the "Alt"-key. Then you'll get
a list of available bootable systems.

>(BTW, I can't install OS 9.1 on the PB via Target Disk Mode; the installer
>says "You must boot the installer CD [on the PB] to install the OS there.")
>
>What are my options? How can I get this copied system to boot the PB? I tried
>resetting PRAM. Is there something I can do in the firmware screen to boot
>this OS? Since I can't boot the OS CD, I can't change the Startup Disk
>setting.

You are aware of the fact that booting and pressing "c" will tell your
PowerBook to boot from CD?

Regards,
Christoph Gartmann
--
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452
Immunbiologie
Postfach 1169 Internet: [email]gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de[/email]
D-79011 Freiburg, Germany
[url]http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html[/url]

[Tom Stiller]

In article <0001HW.BB7D61BF00005C8309F3CC20@news.individual.n et>,
DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> My PowerBook's hard drive crashed. I replaced it with a new one and
> successfully copied the data (including the old system files: OS 9.2.2 and OS
> X 10.2.6) from the backup drive onto the new drive using a desktop Mac via
> FireWire Target Disk Mode.

Is the backup drive bootable? If so, you could copy its contents to the
new drive using Carbon Copy Cloner, available via VersionTracker.

>
> Now the PB won't boot. All I get is the black apple on gray background (the
> PB was last running -- before the crash -- on OS X).

Right. You can't make a bootable copy of OS X by drag copying the drive
or individual folders. The copy of OS 9 should be OK.

>
> I can't boot the OS CD on the PB because my CD-ROM drive, I suspect, is
> having problems. (I've replaced it with a new combo drive, and haven't had
> the opportunity to confirm its functionality. It remains an unknown in the
> troubleshooting formula...)

If you can get booted from anything, you should be able to set the
startup system to the OS 9 system on the copied-to drive.

>
> The only option I could see was to delete the system folders (9.2.2 and X)
> and copy the System Folder from the OS 9.1 CD onto the PB's HD via Target
> Disk Mode. PB wouldn't boot this copied system; just the gray screen with
> black apple.
>
> (BTW, I can't install OS 9.1 on the PB via Target Disk Mode; the installer
> says "You must boot the installer CD [on the PB] to install the OS there.")
>
> What are my options? How can I get this copied system to boot the PB? I tried
> resetting PRAM. Is there something I can do in the firmware screen to boot
> this OS? Since I can't boot the OS CD, I can't change the Startup Disk
> setting.
>
> I'm going to address the CD drive, but I'd like to find a way to boot the HD
> before I fix the CD.
>
> PowerBook G3/400
>
> Thanks,

--
Tom Stiller

PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

[DaveC]

The OS 9.1 system folder I copied to the PB's HD shows it is "blessed" (has
Smiley Face icon) when viewed from desktop Mac via FireWire Target Disk Mode.

What makes this OS not visible by the PB's firmware (such that it doesn't
show up as a boot option when holding the Option key down during boot -- see
#4 below)?

To answer a few questions posed by replies to my original post:

1. I copied an OS 9.1 system folder to the PB's HD, not an OS X folder.

2. The PB *is* new enough to boot 9.1 (a G3 FireWire "Pismo")

3. I tried holding down the C key at boot time; no joy.

4. I also tried holding down the Option key at boot: I am shown the OS X
option only. I click the "Continue" arrow, and then get the international
"No" sign on the screen" (aka the "No joy" sign). I presume that this is
because I copied backup files using finder copy which, I further presume,
doesn't copy a lot of invisible files and renders any copied OS files
impotent. (Since the backup of the original HD was made using Finder copy, I
have no OS invisible files on the backup drive, so Carbon Copy Cloner isn't a
solution for me -- now, anyway. Lessons learned for future use of CCC!)

After holding down the Option key, if I click the "Check again" (circular
arrow) button, no other boot options are presented to me. It (thinks it) sees
only OS X.

Other suggestions? How the heck can I copy OS 9.1 to this HD and get the darn
thing to boot?

Thanks,
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[DaveC]

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:01:00 -0700, DaveC wrote
(in message <0001HW.BB7E71CC0018349D05E51530@news.individual.n et>):

> The OS 9.1 system folder I copied to the PB's HD shows it is "blessed" (has
> Smiley Face icon) when viewed from desktop Mac via FireWire Target Disk Mode.

Oops... this is not true. I checked the folder again and it has no "Smiley
Face" on it. (Sorry for the confusion.)

What's required to get this folder to be "blessed"? I copied it directly off
of the OS 9.1 install CD (not a copy).

Thanks,
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[Matt Broughton]

In article <0001HW.BB7E7554001908F705E57330@news.individual.n et>,
DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:01:00 -0700, DaveC wrote
> (in message <0001HW.BB7E71CC0018349D05E51530@news.individual.n et>):
>

> > The OS 9.1 system folder I copied to the PB's HD shows it is "blessed" (has
> > Smiley Face icon) when viewed from desktop Mac via FireWire Target Disk
> > Mode.

>
> Oops... this is not true. I checked the folder again and it has no "Smiley
> Face" on it. (Sorry for the confusion.)
>
> What's required to get this folder to be "blessed"? I copied it directly off
> of the OS 9.1 install CD (not a copy).
>

Beginning somewhere around OS 9, Apple did something so that a copy of
the System folder from the install disk will not boot a computer even if
it appears to be blessed.

If you copy your backup copy of OS 9.2.2 to the PB, can you get that
System folder to show as blessed? If not, try blessing it by opening
and closing the System suitcase inside the System folder. Sometimes
removing the Finder and then putting it back into the System folder will
also bless the System folder.

If you have any disk utility disks such as Norton's or DiskWarrior that
would normally be able to boot the PB, you can copy a System folder from
one of those disks.

Finally, you can make a blank disk image on the desktop machine and
install a copy of OS 9.1 to the disk image. From there you should be
able to copy that System folder to the PB via Target Disk Mode.

--
Matt Broughton
Only relatives are absolute.

[DaveC]

> Finally, you can make a blank disk image on the desktop machine and

> install a copy of OS 9.1 to the disk image. From there you should be
> able to copy that System folder to the PB via Target Disk Mode.

I'm willing to try this, but I don't see how that differs from what I tried
(see below). The PB seems stuck (Startup Disk parameter?) on OS X being the
OS to boot, even though there is no System Folder or other visible remnant of
OS X on the internal HD.

This is my latest attempt:

Using my desktop Mac, I installed (not copied) OS 9.1 onto an external
FireWire drive.

I connected this drive to the PowerBook, and powered on the PB. Nothing. I
tried Cmd-Opt-Shift-Delete: nothing flashing folders w/ question marks on
them. I held down the Option key: nothing but the (partial) OS X option (that
doesn't boot).

I even threw out the old system folders (before installing a new OS 9.1), so
there is only one System folder on the PB's HD, which contains the new 9.1
installation.

Is there *anyway* to get this #*)&^% computer to boot OS 9.1 w/o a CD-ROM
drive???

I will try your suggestion to create a disk image, install the OS there, then
copy that to the PB's internal HD. I'll report my success.

Thanks,
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[Christoph Gartmann]

In article <0001HW.BB7E8A17000168A609F24530@news.individual.n et>, DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> writes:

>This is my latest attempt:
>
>Using my desktop Mac, I installed (not copied) OS 9.1 onto an external
>FireWire drive.
>
>I connected this drive to the PowerBook, and powered on the PB. Nothing. I
>tried Cmd-Opt-Shift-Delete: nothing flashing folders w/ question marks on
>them. I held down the Option key: nothing but the (partial) OS X option (that
>doesn't boot).

I am not sure whether this PowerBook is able to boot from firewire.

>I even threw out the old system folders (before installing a new OS 9.1), so
>there is only one System folder on the PB's HD, which contains the new 9.1
>installation.
>
>Is there *anyway* to get this #*)&^% computer to boot OS 9.1 w/o a CD-ROM
>drive???

Try to zap the PRAM. PRAM stores the information from where to boot. Once this
has been cleared the PB should start looking for a bootable system folder and
hopefully find your OS 9.1 folder.

I had to realize that once you have the OSX boot option in PRAM you are no
longer able to boot OS9. The Mac will find the OSX system or part of it and
boot from that one even if it is a corrupted OSX. The same for the option key
during boot, OS9 system folders are not displayed if there is OSX on the same
disk and OSX set in PRAM.

Regards,
Christoph Gartmann

--
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452
Immunbiologie
Postfach 1169 Internet: [email]gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de[/email]
D-79011 Freiburg, Germany
[url]http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html[/url]

[Karl von Laudermann]

In article <0001HW.BB7E7554001908F705E57330@news.individual.n et>,
DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> What's required to get this folder to be "blessed"? I copied it directly off
> of the OS 9.1 install CD (not a copy).

IIRC, you can bless a System folder by moving the Finder app out of it,
and then putting it back in.

--
-- Karl J. von Laudermann -- karlvonl(at)rcn.com --
-- <http://www.geocities.com/~karlvonl/> --
"It will take many years, but [Microsoft] will eventually have to compete. It'll
be a whole new world for them. I'm looking forward to it."- Larry Ellison

[Karl von Laudermann]

Also, when you get the flashing question mark, how long did you wait
before giving up? Sometimes the machine takes a while to find the System
folder, until you fix this by actually choosing it from the Startup Disk
control panel.

--
-- Karl J. von Laudermann -- karlvonl(at)rcn.com --
-- <http://www.geocities.com/~karlvonl/> --
"It will take many years, but [Microsoft] will eventually have to compete. It'll
be a whole new world for them. I'm looking forward to it."- Larry Ellison

[Matt Broughton]

In article <0001HW.BB7E8A17000168A609F24530@news.individual.n et>,
DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> > Finally, you can make a blank disk image on the desktop machine and
> > install a copy of OS 9.1 to the disk image. From there you should be
> > able to copy that System folder to the PB via Target Disk Mode.

>
> I'm willing to try this, but I don't see how that differs from what I tried
> (see below). The PB seems stuck (Startup Disk parameter?) on OS X being the
> OS to boot, even though there is no System Folder or other visible remnant of
> OS X on the internal HD.
>
> This is my latest attempt:
>
> Using my desktop Mac, I installed (not copied) OS 9.1 onto an external
> FireWire drive.

As you have installed OS 9.1 onto an external disk, you could copy that
System folder over to the PowerBook. Installing to an external disk
produces the same results as installing to a disk image.

>
> I connected this drive to the PowerBook, and powered on the PB. Nothing. I
> tried Cmd-Opt-Shift-Delete: nothing flashing folders w/ question marks on
> them. I held down the Option key: nothing but the (partial) OS X option (that
> doesn't boot).

Does the PB support booting from a firewire disk? I always get confused
as to when that became available.

> I even threw out the old system folders (before installing a new OS 9.1), so
> there is only one System folder on the PB's HD, which contains the new 9.1
> installation.
>
> Is there *anyway* to get this #*)&^% computer to boot OS 9.1 w/o a CD-ROM
> drive???
>

Perhaps this might be a case where resetting the open firmware may help.
You can follow the directions in Apple KB article at
<http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=42642>
You will need to reinstall any firmware updates that you previously
installed after resetting the open firmware.

The other thought I had (excuse me if I forgot some of what you already
said you tried) would be to make sure that there are no peripherals
connected to the PB after you have a bootable OS 9.1 system folder on
it. This would include removing the replacement CD-ROM drive and/or
perhaps the defective CD-ROM drive. I have had my computer get hung up
trying to startup for no apparent reason. After I removed all USB
devices, it worked fine.

--
Matt Broughton
Only relatives are absolute.

[DaveC]

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 7:57:36 -0700, Karl von Laudermann wrote
(in message <karlvonl-B7CFB3.10573606092003@reader1.news.rcn.net>):

> IIRC, you can bless a System folder by moving the Finder app out of it,
> and then putting it back in.

I did this. No joy.
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[DaveC]

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 8:32:28 -0700, Matt Broughton wrote
(in message <walterwego-E98C0F.10322806092003@corp.supernews.com>):

> As you have installed OS 9.1 onto an external disk, you could copy that
> System folder over to the PowerBook. Installing to an external disk
> produces the same results as installing to a disk image.

I installed OS 9 (clean install) onto a 500 MB disk image. Then copied it to
the PB's internal HD via FireWire Target Disk Mode. Tried booting. No joy.

> Does the PB support booting from a firewire disk? I always get confused
> as to when that became available.

I don't know either. Too burned out on this problem to do much more research
on Apple's Support site. Maybe later...

> Perhaps this might be a case where resetting the open firmware may help.
> You can follow the directions in Apple KB article at
> <http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=42642>
> You will need to reinstall any firmware updates that you previously
> installed after resetting the open firmware.

I think I'll try this next. I've saved all firmware updates.

> The other thought I had (excuse me if I forgot some of what you already
> said you tried) would be to make sure that there are no peripherals
> connected to the PB after you have a bootable OS 9.1 system folder on
> it. This would include removing the replacement CD-ROM drive and/or
> perhaps the defective CD-ROM drive. I have had my computer get hung up
> trying to startup for no apparent reason. After I removed all USB
> devices, it worked fine.

Tried:
Booting with no peripherals. No joy.
Booting from external FireWire HD. No joy.

Any other ideas?

Thanks,
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[DaveC]

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 8:00:00 -0700, Karl von Laudermann wrote
(in message <karlvonl-5400CF.11000006092003@reader1.news.rcn.net>):

> Also, when you get the flashing question mark, how long did you wait
> before giving up? Sometimes the machine takes a while to find the System
> folder, until you fix this by actually choosing it from the Startup Disk
> control panel.

Waited half an hour, once.
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[DaveC]

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 5:30:05 -0700, Christoph Gartmann wrote
(in message <bjck0d$k26$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>):

> Try to zap the PRAM. PRAM stores the information from where to boot. Once
> this
> has been cleared the PB should start looking for a bootable system folder and
> hopefully find your OS 9.1 folder.

I've reset PRAM so many times the P, R, Opt, and Cmd keys have their letters
worn off :-)

> I had to realize that once you have the OSX boot option in PRAM you are no
> longer able to boot OS9. The Mac will find the OSX system or part of it and
> boot from that one even if it is a corrupted OSX. The same for the option key
> during boot, OS9 system folders are not displayed if there is OSX on the same
> disk and OSX set in PRAM.

This is why I suspect that resetting Open Firmware is my only option left.

Thanks,
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[Fred McKenzie]

<< Beginning somewhere around OS 9, Apple did something so that a copy of
the System folder from the install disk will not boot a computer even if
it appears to be blessed. >>

Walter & DaveC-

Another related factor I haven't seen here, is that somewhere about that time,
the newer Macs did not have a boot ROM, and require a ROM image to be in the
System Folder. If installation is done on a machine that has a boot ROM, the
image may not be installed. I wonder if that might be one reason DaveC's
copied System won't boot? If so, installing a copy of a ROM image may solve
the problem, as it did once for me.

In the case above, OS X was not involved, and I have had problems similar to
DaveC's. I don't recall how I managed it, but after getting the machine to
boot in OS 9 the first time, everything worked again. I don't think it matters
yet whether the System is blessed. First, you have to get the machine to
"think OS 9", then you can worry about blessing!!

Fred

[DaveC]

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 18:28:31 -0700, Fred McKenzie wrote
(in message <20030906212831.10745.00000504@mb-m29.aol.com>):

> I wonder if that might be one reason DaveC's
> copied System won't boot? If so, installing a copy of a ROM image may solve
> the problem, as it did once for me.

Sounds like a creative solution. Where do I get a copy of this PowerBook's
ROM image?

Thanks,
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]

[Matt Broughton]

In article <0001HW.BB7FFD5B00006F5509F369C0@news.individual.n et>,
DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 18:28:31 -0700, Fred McKenzie wrote
> (in message <20030906212831.10745.00000504@mb-m29.aol.com>):
>

> > I wonder if that might be one reason DaveC's
> > copied System won't boot? If so, installing a copy of a ROM image may solve
> > the problem, as it did once for me.

>
> Sounds like a creative solution. Where do I get a copy of this PowerBook's
> ROM image?
>

I think he is talking about a file "Mac OS ROM" that gets installed on
the newer models. It would be located in the System Folder. You can
easily check to see if that file was installed on the Firewire disk
installation you did. I believe the presence/absence of that file would
depend on the desktop model you were using to run the installer and the
type of install you did, ie, a Universal install to boot *any* Mac or an
install for "this" computer.

I hadn't thought about this before but I went back and checked a disk
image of an OS 9.1 install I did for a 7300. It contained no "Mac OS
ROM" file in the System folder. My B&W G3 has that file in the OS 9.1
System folder.

--
Matt Broughton
Only relatives are absolute.

[DaveC]

On Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:14:02 -0700, Matt Broughton wrote
(in message <walterwego-53713F.12140207092003@corp.supernews.com>):

> I hadn't thought about this before but I went back and checked a disk
> image of an OS 9.1 install I did for a 7300. It contained no "Mac OS
> ROM" file in the System folder. My B&W G3 has that file in the OS 9.1
> System folder.

That was the trick! I found the Mac OS ROM file on the OS 9.1 CD and
installed on the PB's HD via Target Disk Mode.

PB has booted for the first time since I started this "HD crash / data
recovery / HD replace / CD-ROM drive fail / OS install (or so I thought) / no
boot" dance about 3-4 weeks ago.

Thanks to all who contributed ideas and the end solution.

Yeaaaa!!!
--
Dave C.
[email]dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com[/email]