How to calcule the bleed and spine depending on paper weight?

[uzapuca@adobeforums.com]

Hi People, This is obviously a beginners question. I search in the forum, but could not find a good answer to it. I just starting to work with InDesing CS 3 for Mac.

1 – How can I calculate the inner page bleeding depending on the paper weight and binding style I will use? For example if I design a book of 150 pages and I plan to use a light or heavy paper this measure is going to change.

2 – Besides that, using a different type of paper weight is going to affect the size of the spine or backbone of the book (don´t know which is the right term in English). How can I calculate the spine of the book?

I don´t know if I am using the right Graphic Art Terms, but I did my best. Thanks a lot for the answers and the patience for beginners.

Best, Sebastiao

[Steve_Werner@adobeforums.com]

Sebastiao,

You should ask your printer to calculate the spine thickness, and the bleed. There are formulas, but the printer is the best source of information.

[uzapuca@adobeforums.com]

Hi Steve, Thanks for your fast answer. It is a relief than the printer handles that issue. So I have to decide first the type of paper I am going to use? Because if the client decides to change it in the future (for economic or like reasons) the whole bleed of the book has to change…

Best, Sebastiao

[Bob Levine]

Not if you design carefully. Find out the minimum for the spine and
design for that as far as text goes. Have the color bleed all the way
through from front to back.

Bob

[AlFerrari]

Bob,

When designing carefully, how should bleed at the spine be handled: should there be bleed, or should it be set to 0?

Al

[Bob Levine]

I always set bleed to zero on the inside margin and design with facing
pages.

Bob

[AlFerrari]

Bob,

I wonder if your printers would report if asked, if special attention was required in processing such files due to the uneven bleeds.
Perhaps you could ask on the next one, or if you have done a recent one.

Al

[Richard_Sohanchyk@adobeforums.com]

That's interesting Bob. I always set the bleed to .125 all around. Let the printer worry about. Also, what happens if you add and subtract pages?

[Bob Levine]

I always ask before and after a job. I've not had any problems.

Bob

[John_Slate@adobeforums.com]

If the OP is talking about a spine, then he/she is talking about a perfect-bound publication.

So the width of the spine would have nothing to do with the text, rather it would be a critical factor in laying out the cover.

In my experience, if you truly want accuracy, relying on a formula to calculate spine width is a poor idea... the best is to get a bulking dummy made with the actual paper, and take an accurate measurement.

That's interesting Bob. I always set the bleed to .125 all around. Let
the printer worry about. Also, what happens if you add and subtract pages?




I think you are confusing this issue with creep and saddle-stiched publications.

Perfect bound books do not get creep applied. There is no setting that needs to be adjusted given the length of the book... stacking signatures!

Whether or not one gives any special consideration to inner bleeds on text pages for perfect bound books is a whole 'nother subject that has been discussed quite thoroughly.

[AlFerrari]

Perfect bound books do not get creep applied.




John,

In saddle binding, at what page count would you start to apply it: 8, 12, 16, 20, 24...?

Now when perfect bound books are printed in signatures, each signature is a small saddle bound booklet. So depending on the signature page count, the page contents (wide margins v. graphic elements near the spine or outer edges), and stock thickness, your statement may not apply.

For this reason, imposition softwares, such as Preps, have the ability to apply creep to each individual signature in a perfect bound book.

Al Ferrari

[AlFerrari]

I always ask before and after a job. I've not had any problems.




Bob,

I would never suggest your jobs would have any problems <G>, but I suspect that the uneven bleed is causing the printers to take measures they would not otherwise. They may have developed routine procedures for this and adopted a policy of not mentioning it to you. You might ask them.

It is an Indesign issue I am pursuing, no reflection on your excellent work.

Al Ferrari

[Bob Levine]

No problem at all, Al. In fact, a while back one of the printers
actually complained about where my crop marks were. This after I did the
same job with them for two years. Apparently one of the pre-press people
finally complained.

So, can I tell you with all certainty that nothing's being "fixed?" No,
I can't. But I did make it clear that I want to know if there's a
problem and all of my printers are satisfied with the zero bleed in the
inside margins.

I don't do an awful lot of perfect bound books so I might not be the
right brain to be picking about this, anyway. <g>

Bob

[AlFerrari]

For this reason, imposition softwares, such as Preps, have the ability
to apply creep to each individual signature in a perfect bound book.




Correction, that should have been:

For this reason, imposition softwares, such as Preps, have the ability to apply creep to perfect bound books by calculating the creep needed for each signature depending on its page count.

Al Ferrari

[J.I.M.@adobeforums.com]

I do lots of perfect bound books, handled by different printers. It's standard to apply bleed only to the outside edges of facing pages -- 0 for the spine. Most signatures are 16 or 32 pages: divide that by half for the number of leafs = the creep is practically nonexistent.

FWIW, here is a site with a spine calculator, for certain paper stocks:
<http://www.houghtonboston.com/support_spine_calculator.html>

As others have mentioned, once you choose a paper stock and know the page count, the printer should provide you with the spine width, which is necessary for laying out the cover, not the interior. I've actually given the same specs to different printers, and had different dimensions supplied. . . go figure. So don't lay out the cover until print quotes are received and a printer is chosen.

[AlFerrari]

J.I.M.,

From the link you gave the paper caliper for 70# Williamsburg Offset is .00540.

Using this figure, for a 32p signature, which has 8 leaves, (not 16; divide by four, not two), the pages on the inside leaf of that signature will be pushed out 8 X .0054, or 0.043 inches compared to the ones on the outer leaf. Now, if the sort of work you do is not affected by this difference (and a lot of work is not), then you'll be a happy camper without the creep adjustment.

However, there are books in which this back and forth variation in the placement of a graphic near the edge would be undesirable. In the not so distant days when page films were manually asembled into flats, there was a strong incentive to forego the laborious adjustment procedure. But the good news is that modern imposition software can handle this creep adjustment for side gathered signatures automatically. So it is difficult to understand why some would argue against its use. Note that this is about page cropping and not about bleed.

Al Ferrari

[John_Slate@adobeforums.com]

I have never applied creep to signatures of a perfect bound book.

For saddle stitch somewhere around 24 pages is where I start thinking about it, partly depending on paper weight.

But the biggest factor in the decision for me is whether or not the design would truly be adversely affected by NOT applying creep, like 1/4" vertical borders on the outside edge of every page.

The one thing that all impostiton softwares do (at least the ones I have used... Preps... TrueFlow) is totally mess up crossovers by the application of creep, in that a sliver gets cut out of the middle.

More than once I have pre-adjusted crossovers by breaking them into 2 pieces and spliting them apart by the amount that the imposition software will move both sides in, so that the crossover will remain intact.

I have also done my share of manual shingling for much the same reason... maybe a book that is all crossovers on every spread... I have even shingled just the folios.

I've actually given the same specs to different printers, and had different
dimensions supplied. . . go figure




Different paper houses may provide different formulas... and this goes back to my contention that what is really needed is a bulking dummy, and that is something that the printers bindery should provide if you ask it.

As far as the zero bleed on the binding edge of perfect bound pages go, I will confess as a supplier to breaking-up my share facing page documents to effect inner bleed, though at the same time I would wager that leaving the inner bleed at zero would end up being OK in the bindery.

Us old time printers I think have a hard time letting things go that way, and it is not so much as the lack of bleed, but the color from a full-bleed facing page that appears along the binding edge of an otherwise-white page that makes us nervous.

Sure it would probably be fine, but we feel safer when we have 4 sided bleeds in perfect bound books whether the bleed is color or white paper.

[AlFerrari]

the biggest factor in the decision for me is whether or not the design
would truly be adversely affected by NOT applying creep, like 1/4" vertical
borders on the outside edge of every page.




I have exactly such a case in mind in advocating the use of creep adjustment for side gathered signatures of 16 or more pages, especially with heavier stocks. And there can be similar interactions at the spine side of pages dictating different treatment.

The one thing that all impostiton softwares do (at least the ones I have
used... Preps... TrueFlow) is totally mess up crossovers by the application
of creep, in that a sliver gets cut out of the middle.




Yes we come up on those cases with increasing frequency in the electronic age. But the results you describe are due to the improper use of the tools. I am not acquainted with TrueFlow, but Preps can be brought to bear on this pesky situation requiring moving some page elements and not others:

Place the crossover elements on their own layer in Indesign and turn it off for the output of the page elements that require creep. Then turn it on and the other layers off for the output of the segregated crossover elements. Then in Preps, make use of nested independent pages which do not creep for the crossover page output, and use imposed pages for the output requiring creep. This is in essence like double burning the shingled and not shingled versions of the flat on to the plate. Sure it requires a special template and a very carefully constructed run list, but is well worth the effort.

Al Ferrari