iBook vs PowerBook

[William Goedicke]

Dera BE -

>>>>> "BetterEdit" == BetterEdit com <admin@betteredit.com> writes:

BetterEdit> I need a portable only for the basics, a bit of web
BetterEdit> design/graphic manipulation, email, word processing
BetterEdit> and web surfing. I won't be playing games, I want OSX
BetterEdit> and I want portability, not 17inc monitors.

iBook will be more than sufficient.

This reply may seem terse, but if you simply trying to decide which
mac will work for you most cost-effectively than explaining all the
intricacies of hardware interactions contributing to performance is
overkill.

The requirements you specify above would be met admirably by a
Powerbook Duo (discontinued years ago).

Yours - Billy

================================================== ==========
William Goedicke [email]goedicke@goedsole.com[/email]
[url]http://www.goedsole.com:8080[/url]
================================================== ==========

Lest we forget:

Good management involves five activities:

o Facilitate your staff's efforts by removing organizational
impediments.

o Identify each staff member's strengths and goals
and veer their responsibilities towards them.

o Assign responsibility with commensurate authority.

o Set realistic expectations in your customers.

o Evangelize your services.

- William Goedicke

[Watt]

BetterEdit.com wrote:

> I'm a first time mac buyer and I am looking for a portable to replace my
> crashing windows computers as I have heard mac is very reliable. I've
> been trying to first establish the chronology/glossary of all the
> different type of macs, and what they are designed for, but even this
> has been difficult. Are there any websites out there that may help?
>
> I need a portable only for the basics, a bit of web design/graphic
> manipulation, email, word processing and web surfing. I won't be playing
> games, I want OSX and I want portability, not 17inc monitors.
>
> Based on the apple.com site, of the new models I have a choice
> between an iBook or the PowerBook. What is the difference - size? At
> this stage the iBook looks a lot cheaper for my needs, but is there a
> significant difference in application speed or features?
>
> Any help appreciated.

Sounds like an iBook is the way to go based on the needs you describe.

iBook is the "consumer" line and Powerbook is the "professional line"
and accordingly has more processing power (G4 instead of G3 processors -
important if you have significant graphic design or video editing needs
- clock for clock they're otherwise similar speed), better video cards,
usually more disc space, options like Blutooth, Firewire 800 and Airport
Extreme on the 12" and 17" models, more video-out options (on the iBook
a second display will display the same thing as the built-in; on the
Powerbook you can have one desktop continue from the built-in screen to
the external monitor); and an optional DVD burner.

As for form factor, the 12" Powerbook is very similar to the 12" iBook,
but both other Powerbook models have a larger footprint than any iBook.
Finally, since the iBook was developed with the education market in
mind, its build is more rugged than the Powerbooks' (though the 12" PB
may be an exception here).

(Also note that the only differences between 12" and 14" iBooks are more
weight and longer battery life in the larger model - both have the same
1024 x 768 screen resolution.)

[AES/newspost]

In article <m3fzl2k0r4.fsf@mail.goedsole.com>,
William Goedicke <goedicke@goedsole.com> wrote:

> Dera BE -
>

> >>>>> "BetterEdit" == BetterEdit com <admin@betteredit.com> writes:

>
> BetterEdit> I need a portable only for the basics, a bit of web
> BetterEdit> design/graphic manipulation, email, word processing
> BetterEdit> and web surfing. I won't be playing games, I want OSX
> BetterEdit> and I want portability, not 17inc monitors.
>
> iBook will be more than sufficient.

Agree (iBook owner and previously a PowerBook owner, heavy user for web
access, word processing, TeXing, and scientific computation using
Mathematica.) Spend the money you save on the main machine on
interesting peripherals.

One specific difference is that PowerBooks allow having an "extended
desktop" that can spread from the PowerBook screen across one or more
external monitors. iBooks only allow "video mirroring", i.e. you see
exactly the same view on an external monitor as on the iBook screen.
IBook is thus more limited -- but also simpler: the video mirroring is
always on, no complex settings to play with, and connecting to an
external monitor or projector always works, instantly.

[Steven Fisher]

BetterEdit.com wrote:

> Based on the apple.com site, of the new models I have a choice
> between an iBook or the PowerBook. What is the difference - size? At
> this stage the iBook looks a lot cheaper for my needs, but is there a
> significant difference in application speed or features?

The 12" Powerbook is smaller in every dimension and lighter. It's also
much faster, including things that will definitely affect you.

You'll have to decide for yourself if it is worth the price difference
to you. Roughly an extra $600 buys you:

- A much faster system.
- An optical drive that can play DVDs and burn CDs (the one in the iBook
is strictly a CD ROM).
- A 40 gig drive, instead of 30.
- Double the memory out of the box.

To me, the Powerbook looks like a better deal but you'll have to decide
for yourself. Maybe the more expensive of the 12" iBook would suit you
more, it at least has the same optical drive and similiar hard drive. If
you go for an iBook, though, you'll need to include a memory upgrade to
256 MB in the price.

[BetterEdit.com]

Thanks everyone for your replies thus far. You definitely helped, but
I have some more questions.

As I mentioned, web design/html coding, basic graphic manupilation,
email/web surfing and word processing will be my main uses. The main
reasons I am fed up with windows is the slow, unreliable operating
system. I want my mac to be crash resistant and the os and
applications to run quick with the hiccups only coming from me in the
form of user error, not computer error. That may be unrealistic, but
as close I can get to that computer utopia would be ideal.

Another question - normally I draw on my network of friends to get the
software together to support my computers. This may not be as easy for
a mac, so what extra software am I going to need to purchase? I need
basic text editor for web design, something like ultraedit will do, I
don't need a dreamweaver. I usually use Paint Shop Pro for graphics,
so I will need to investigate mac compatibility or consider getting
and learning photoshop. I need to create PDFs so I need Acrobat, MS
Word for wordprocessing, I assume IE is free and that new browser for
macs is free too?, any solid email client, FTP client...

I am based in Australia so I am shopping on apple.com.au for price
quotes at the moment.

I'm not going lower then 384MB Ram, so I have added that to the total
cost.

IBOOK
800 MHz PowerPC G3
512K L2 cache @ 800MHz
128MB SDRAM memory
30GB Ultra ATA drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 7500
32MB DDR video memory
CD-ROM
Built-in 56K v.92 modem
AirPort ready
Up to 5 hr. battery life

$1850
+ 256 Ram $187

Total = $2037

My main concerns here are the lack of ethernet (not airport), and no
indication of how much extra that would be. Also as some people
mentioned to me, the possibility of the g3 being insufficient for my
needs in the near future. The CD-Rom will do, I don't need a CDR as my
desktop has one, and DVD doesn't interest me.

POWERBOOK
12.1-inch TFT Display
1024x768 resolution
867MHz PowerPC G4
256MB DDR266 SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA/100
Combo Drive
NVIDIA GeForce4 420 Go
32MB DDR video memory
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
FireWire 400
AirPort Extreme Ready
Bluetooth built-in
Composite & S-Video out

$3099
+ 128Ram $99

Total = $3200

My main concern here is the price. Is it possible to approach a
reseller and downgrade things to reduce the cost? For example swap the
combo drive for a CDROM etc. I won't be playing games so graphic
capabilities don't need to be cutting edge.

It seems to come down to G3 vs G4 and is it worth the price
difference.

Comments?

Yaro

[foo]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:05:49 GMT, Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net>
wrote:

>BetterEdit.com wrote:
>

>> Based on the apple.com site, of the new models I have a choice
>> between an iBook or the PowerBook. What is the difference - size? At
>> this stage the iBook looks a lot cheaper for my needs, but is there a
>> significant difference in application speed or features?

Not really, except the DVD and Altivec app speed. And the PB looks
better. But for 60% more money, I don't think it's worthwhile.

>The 12" Powerbook is smaller in every dimension and lighter. It's also
>much faster, including things that will definitely affect you.
>
>You'll have to decide for yourself if it is worth the price difference
>to you. Roughly an extra $600 buys you:
>
>- A much faster system.

.....if you do things stressing graphics or the G4/altivec subsystem.
Otherwise, it shouldn't be that different.
[url]http://barefeats.com/pb17.html[/url] shows some rather interesting results.
Extrapolate from 800 to 900 mhz at will. The only thing the g3 fares
badly on is memory subsystem; since this isn't an end unto itself, it
isn't terribly distressing given the good results of the other tests.

[url]http://macspeedzone.com/html/hardware/machine/comparison/portable/powerbook/index.shtml[/url]
shows more tests - for a lot of what is done daily there isn't that
much of a difference - the poster needs to judge if the combo drive
justifies a more expensive iBook ($300) or a PB ($600).

>- An optical drive that can play DVDs and burn CDs (the one in the iBook
>is strictly a CD ROM).

The $999 iBook has just the CD. Step up to $1299 (vs. $1599 - only
$300 now) and you get the combo drive.

>- A 40 gig drive, instead of 30.
>- Double the memory out of the box.

True.

>To me, the Powerbook looks like a better deal but you'll have to decide
>for yourself. Maybe the more expensive of the 12" iBook would suit you
>more, it at least has the same optical drive and similiar hard drive. If
>you go for an iBook, though, you'll need to include a memory upgrade to
>256 MB in the price.

Unless one must play DVDs (I don't see the fascination; I have a DVD
player at the house already), or one uses AltiVec-enhanced software, I
don't see a big reason to jump to the PB.

The iBook at $999 seems to be a pretty good deal; an even better one
might be to get one that's one generation old (some stores still have
them for $100-$150 off). In either case, spend $125 or so and slap a
512MB chip in there. For $1125 or so (or $1025) you'll have a nice
little machine.

You'll also lose less when you sell it in a year or two...

I typically tell people that unless they know they need XYZ feature,
think twice before spending more money to buy it.

[foo]

On 19 Jul 2003 17:28:27 -0700, [email]admin@betteredit.com[/email] (BetterEdit.com)
wrote:

>As I mentioned, web design/html coding, basic graphic manupilation,
>email/web surfing and word processing will be my main uses. The main
>reasons I am fed up with windows is the slow, unreliable operating
>system.

Install XP, home or pro. Avoid 95/98/ME.

>I want my mac to be crash resistant and the os and
>applications to run quick with the hiccups only coming from me in the
>form of user error, not computer error. That may be unrealistic, but
>as close I can get to that computer utopia would be ideal.

Good luck. :)

>Another question - normally I draw on my network of friends to get the
>software together to support my computers. This may not be as easy for
>a mac, so what extra software am I going to need to purchase? I need
>basic text editor for web design, something like ultraedit will do, I
>don't need a dreamweaver. I usually use Paint Shop Pro for graphics,
>so I will need to investigate mac compatibility or consider getting
>and learning photoshop. I need to create PDFs so I need Acrobat, MS
>Word for wordprocessing, I assume IE is free and that new browser for
>macs is free too?, any solid email client, FTP client...

You essentially told us you pirate software. That's not good.
Whichever machine you choose, please buy your software. PSP is
available for OS X (or in a few days or a week or two). BBEdit is a
good web-tool text editor, but it might be overkill for you. Word is
$400 in Office v.X. Browser, mail, ftp clients are typically free or
very low cost.

>I am based in Australia so I am shopping on apple.com.au for price
>quotes at the moment.
>
>I'm not going lower then 384MB Ram, so I have added that to the total
>cost.
>
>IBOOK
>800 MHz PowerPC G3
>512K L2 cache @ 800MHz
>128MB SDRAM memory
>30GB Ultra ATA drive
>ATI Mobility Radeon 7500
>32MB DDR video memory
>CD-ROM
>Built-in 56K v.92 modem
>AirPort ready
>Up to 5 hr. battery life
>
>$1850
>+ 256 Ram $187
>
>Total = $2037

You'd be wise to get RAM elsewhere. Apple's RAM is very expensive.

>My main concerns here are the lack of ethernet (not airport), and no
>indication of how much extra that would be.

Ethernet 10/100 is built into every iBook.

>Also as some people
>mentioned to me, the possibility of the g3 being insufficient for my
>needs in the near future. The CD-Rom will do, I don't need a CDR as my
>desktop has one, and DVD doesn't interest me.

Then get just the basic iBook. The G3 should be fine if you aren't
doing video work or games.

>POWERBOOK
>12.1-inch TFT Display
>1024x768 resolution
>867MHz PowerPC G4
>256MB DDR266 SDRAM
>40GB Ultra ATA/100
>Combo Drive
>NVIDIA GeForce4 420 Go
>32MB DDR video memory
>10/100BASE-T Ethernet
>FireWire 400
>AirPort Extreme Ready
>Bluetooth built-in
>Composite & S-Video out
>
>$3099
>+ 128Ram $99
>
>Total = $3200

>My main concern here is the price. Is it possible to approach a
>reseller and downgrade things to reduce the cost? For example swap the
>combo drive for a CDROM etc. I won't be playing games so graphic
>capabilities don't need to be cutting edge.

No.

>It seems to come down to G3 vs G4 and is it worth the price
>difference.
>Comments?
>Yaro

For what I've heard you talk about, I see little reason for a G4.

[Marc Heusser]

In article <91c9269e.0307191628.3f2daf60@posting.google.com >,
[email]admin@betteredit.com[/email] (BetterEdit.com) wrote:

> I need
> basic text editor for web design, something like ultraedit will do, I
> don't need a dreamweaver.

There's a number of text editors that will do html. (free/shareware)

> I usually use Paint Shop Pro for graphics,
> so I will need to investigate mac compatibility or consider getting
> and learning photoshop.

GraphicsConverter will do many things, take a look at it (shareware).

> I need to create PDFs so I need Acrobat,

You'll get pdf's from Mac OSX's print dialog.

> MS Word for wordprocessing

Do you? Maybe, but there is a number of other products for free or low
cost (SimpleText, Mellel, openoffice).

> I assume IE is free and that new browser for
> macs is free too?, any solid email client, FTP client...
>

Sure:
Safari as the free opensource browser adopted by Apple
Mail (Apple's mail application, free), Eudora, ...
ftp: command line: ftp, or take a look at Interarchy etc
....

> IBOOK

....

> My main concerns here are the lack of ethernet (not airport), and no
> indication of how much extra that would be.

You'll get an ethernet port built in (standard).

> Also as some people
> mentioned to me, the possibility of the g3 being insufficient for my
> needs in the near future.

G4 ist not *that* much faster, except for coding MP3, and applying
filters in graphics programs etc.

> The CD-Rom will do, I don't need a CDR as my
> desktop has one, and DVD doesn't interest me.

CD-R is just nice to have.

I write this on a Pismo Powerbook (G3/500 MHz, 3 years old, 384 MB RAM)
running 10.2.6, very useable.

Marc

--
Marc Heusser - Zurich, Switzerland
Coaching - Consulting - Counselling - Psychotherapy
[url]http://www.heusser.com[/url]
remove the obvious CHEERS and MERCIAL... from the reply address
to reply via e-mail

[Watt]

BetterEdit.com wrote:

> Another question - normally I draw on my network of friends to get the
> software together to support my computers. This may not be as easy for
> a mac, so what extra software am I going to need to purchase? I need
> basic text editor for web design,

BBedit Lite (free) will probably suffice ([url]www.barebones.com[/url]). If not,
the full program is not very expensive. Or you can use any number of
other free or shareware editors.

something like ultraedit will do, I

> don't need a dreamweaver. I usually use Paint Shop Pro for graphics,
> so I will need to investigate mac compatibility or consider getting
> and learning photoshop.

Can't help you much here. Appleworks (bundled with iBooks, not
Powerbooks) has basic graphic manipulation capabilities, as does iPhoto
(free).

I need to create PDFs so I need Acrobat,

If you don't need to do anything fancy (merge or split PDFs, add links,
create forms, set special font embedding or graphics compression
options, etc.) then the OS X print dialog will do the job.


MS

> Word for wordprocessing,

You'll probably find that a complete Office installation is about the
same price as or cheaper than Word alone. (In which case you'll have the
choice of Entourage as a mail client, if you want.) AppleWorks also has
a reasonable WP module, though if you need advanced features like track
changes (or if you have to preserve Word formatting in client-supplied
material) you'll need Word. There are others available, too.

I assume IE is free and that new browser for

> macs is free too?,

Yes, Safari is free and probably now preinstalled. And it's much, much
better than IE. (Which is also free.) Mozilla also works well; can't say
one way or another about the others, but there are several.

>any solid email client,

I find the free version of Eudora suffices; you can also use the full
version without spending money, but it's adware (pay the $$, the ads
vanish). Apple's Mail is pretty good too.

>FTP client...
>

There are several shareware programs with graphical front ends, or you
can just use the built-in Unix ftp from the command line.

> I am based in Australia so I am shopping on apple.com.au for price
> quotes at the moment.
>
> I'm not going lower then 384MB Ram, so I have added that to the total
> cost.
>

As others have said, buy your RAM elsewhere and max it out if possible.

> IBOOK
> 800 MHz PowerPC G3
> 512K L2 cache @ 800MHz
> 128MB SDRAM memory
> 30GB Ultra ATA drive

If there's an option to get a larger drive, you should do it. Upgrading
this part of an iBook is a major pain.

> ATI Mobility Radeon 7500
> 32MB DDR video memory
> CD-ROM
> Built-in 56K v.92 modem
> AirPort ready
> Up to 5 hr. battery life
>
> $1850
> + 256 Ram $187
>
> Total = $2037
>
> My main concerns here are the lack of ethernet (not airport), and no
> indication of how much extra that would be.

As others have mentioned, it's got 10/100 built in (RJ-45 - no dongles).

Also as some people

> mentioned to me, the possibility of the g3 being insufficient for my
> needs in the near future.

If your needs don't change, then the G3 will remain as adequate (or not)
as it is today. It also carries the benefit of running cooler and
drawing less power than the G4. I'd say you're likelier to find a 30GB
hard drive more limiting than a G3 processor.

The CD-Rom will do, I don't need a CDR as my

> desktop has one, and DVD doesn't interest me.
>

Be very sure about this...it's another hard-to-upgrade part, and CD-R
can be extremely useful on the road.

As for DVD, it's not just about movies. Consider the ability to read the
discs as future-proofing, since more and more software is being
distributed on them. (Or maybe your next desktop will have a DVD burner
which you'll want to use for backups, and you'll wind up cursing
yourself because you can't read them on your laptop.)

> POWERBOOK
> 12.1-inch TFT Display
> 1024x768 resolution
> 867MHz PowerPC G4
> 256MB DDR266 SDRAM

(Also note that this machine's memory upgrades will be more expensive
than the other's, but the DDR won't necessarily provide much performance
boost.)

> 40GB Ultra ATA/100

(Again, it's best to get the largest offered)

> Combo Drive
> NVIDIA GeForce4 420 Go
> 32MB DDR video memory
> 10/100BASE-T Ethernet
> FireWire 400
> AirPort Extreme Ready
> Bluetooth built-in
> Composite & S-Video out
>
> $3099
> + 128Ram $99
>
> Total = $3200
>
> My main concern here is the price. Is it possible to approach a
> reseller and downgrade things to reduce the cost? For example swap the
> combo drive for a CDROM etc.

Generally no. If there's a downgrade option at the online Apple store,
then it can be done but usually the options are for upgrades, for
example Combo --> Super drive. Powerbooks are simply not available with
CD-ROM only.

I won't be playing games so graphic

> capabilities don't need to be cutting edge.
>

Then seriously consider the g3 machine. A 900 MHz G3 will be about the
same as or faster than a G4 at 867 for most things.

> It seems to come down to G3 vs G4 and is it worth the price
> difference.

IMO the benefits of the G4 machine (and there are some) are not
justified by the price difference, but it all depends on you. Clearly
there are many people for whom the benefits do justify the expenditure.

>
> Comments?
>
> Yaro

[Kwan Yeoh]

Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net> wrote:

> You'll have to decide for yourself if it is worth the price difference
> to you. Roughly an extra $600 buys you:
>
> [...]
> - Double the memory out of the box.

This is not necessarily an advantage. 256MB is barely enough & to
upgrade the 12" powerbook to, say, 640MB, you have to pull out a 128MB
chip & replace it with a 512MB chip, leading to a waste of a 128MB chip
which you didn't really have to pay for in the first place.

Kwan.


--
Please remove SpamMeNot to reply. I apologise for the necessary use
of this anti-spammation method.

[Kwan Yeoh]

Most people have already answered the queries. Just a few additions:

> I want my mac to be crash resistant and the os and
> applications to run quick with the hiccups only coming from me in the
> form of user error, not computer error. That may be unrealistic, but
> as close I can get to that computer utopia would be ideal.

No computer is ideal. My Mac does crash, but only once every month or
so, usually after installing new software & after leaving it running for
a few weeks without a restart.

> I usually use Paint Shop Pro for graphics,
> so I will need to investigate mac compatibility or consider getting
> and learning photoshop.

A registered copy of GraphicConvertor is included with a PowerBook. An
iBook includes AppleWorks which does some of the basics. Neither is as
good as PhotoShop.

> I need to create PDFs so I need Acrobat

No. The built-in software in OS X creates PDFs. Just not as elegantly as
Acrobat.

> I am based in Australia so I am shopping on apple.com.au for price
> quotes at the moment.

Don't get RAM from them.

> I'm not going lower then 384MB Ram, so I have added that to the total
> cost.

Seriously consider the 640MB. Buy through an AppleStore & ask the retail
place to install the RAM for you. It's cheaper.

> IBOOK
> [...]
> Total = $2037
>
> The CD-Rom will do, I don't need a CDR as my
> desktop has one, and DVD doesn't interest me.

Don't forget there's no floppy drive, so CDR may be the only way to get
information off your computer onto someone else's machine in some
circumstances. Also useful for backing up.

And... pay the extra $88 for the 60GB hard drive. It's not much to pay &
it's a PITA to upgrade later on.

> POWERBOOK
> [...]
> My main concern here is the price. Is it possible to approach a
> reseller and downgrade things to reduce the cost? For example swap the
> combo drive for a CDROM etc.

Most things can't be changed. Those that can be changed are options on
the Apple webstore.

Kwan.

--
Please remove SpamMeNot to reply. I apologise for the necessary use
of this anti-spammation method.

[Franz Iberl]

BetterEdit.com schrieb:

....

> I would really like the DVD-R, but the price is just to prohibitive at
> the moment to get a powerbook (no DVD-R on iBooks apparently).

I got my iBook with Combo-Drive, and I would not do without it!

Servus
Franz

[Simon Slavin]

In article <91c9269e.0307190528.5bd235f@posting.google.com> ,
[email]admin@betteredit.com[/email] (BetterEdit.com) wrote:

>Based on the apple.com site, of the new models I have a choice
>between an iBook or the PowerBook. What is the difference - size? At
>this stage the iBook looks a lot cheaper for my needs, but is there a
>significant difference in application speed or features?

iBook: cheap, word processing, simple graphics, not much pluggability
PowerBook: expensive, video-editing, real-time games, lots of sockets

You get what you pay for. If all you need is internet, text, and
still non-professional graphics then all you need is an iBook.

[Jeffrey]

In article <91c9269e.0307210105.55f6c87f@posting.google.com >,
[email]admin@betteredit.com[/email] (BetterEdit.com) wrote:

> Thank you again everyone. Your advice is very valuable. As price seems
> to be the biggest consideration for me at the moment I'm going to get
> the iBook, upgrade the ram to as much as I can afford and purchase the
> most vital software.
>
> I would really like the DVD-R, but the price is just to prohibitive at
> the moment to get a powerbook (no DVD-R on iBooks apparently).
>
> I think I will be happy enough, especially if I don't have to use
> outlook express ever again!
>
> Yaro
>
>
> --
> Students - improve your marks!
> [url]http://www.betteredit.com.au[/url]

I have a 2002 iBook combo and recently a pBook superdrive 12'
You won't regret getting an iBook and save for a Lacie DVD-R external
firewire for US$299 someday. You can use the iBook combo to burn VCD or
SVCD which I've done for a year. You can even use iSight/iChat AV with
an iBook.

Decided to get the pBook educational price with a bundle of HP Deskjet
and iPod. $300 rebate and $200 discount for the pBook. I'm afraid I
had a good deal.

Best of decision.

[Steven Fisher]

foo wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:05:49 GMT, Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net>
> wrote:
>
>

>>BetterEdit.com wrote:
>>
>>

>>>Based on the apple.com site, of the new models I have a choice
>>>between an iBook or the PowerBook. What is the difference - size? At
>>>this stage the iBook looks a lot cheaper for my needs, but is there a
>>>significant difference in application speed or features?

>
>
> Not really, except the DVD and Altivec app speed. And the PB looks
> better. But for 60% more money, I don't think it's worthwhile.

Except that the Altivec instruction set is used in the core of Mac OS X,
so it affects every application. My Powerbook 500 MHz G4 runs rings
around a 700 MHz iMac.

[Watt]

Steven Fisher wrote:

> foo wrote:
>

>> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:05:49 GMT, Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>

>>> BetterEdit.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Based on the apple.com site, of the new models I have a choice
>>>> between an iBook or the PowerBook. What is the difference - size? At
>>>> this stage the iBook looks a lot cheaper for my needs, but is there a
>>>> significant difference in application speed or features?
>>>

>>
>>
>> Not really, except the DVD and Altivec app speed. And the PB looks
>> better. But for 60% more money, I don't think it's worthwhile.

>
>
> Except that the Altivec instruction set is used in the core of Mac OS X,
> so it affects every application. My Powerbook 500 MHz G4 runs rings
> around a 700 MHz iMac.
>

I've not had as much experience as I'd like with the iBook, but I don't
find it (a borrowed 700MHz model) noticeably slower than an 800 MHz G4
iMac, at least for things like word processing. User interface is about
the same. I suppose the presence or absence of L3 cache could make a
significant difference. The iBook, iMac and 12" Powerbook don't have it.
I'll bet your 500 MHz G4 does...

[Mike]

Mikael Bystroem wrote:

>In the core doing what? You're saying that because of what you're saying
>above OS X make heavy mathematical computations all the time?

I've heard the UNIX kernel described as little more than 'bcopy()'.
In other words, it just moves lots of data around.
If the Altivec instructions can help in that regard, then maybe he's right.

[Mike]

Mikael Bystroem wrote:

>Mike <mghall@enteract.com> wrote:

>> I've heard the UNIX kernel described as little more than 'bcopy()'.
>> In other words, it just moves lots of data around.
>> If the Altivec instructions can help in that regard, then maybe he's right.

>mike, I'm willing to accept any reasonable insightful theory that does
>not include "if"s and "maybe"s on the major points. I'm sorry, but that
>just won't do.

My apologies for cluttering up this newgroup with a theory
that you cannot accept. If I had any detailed knowledge of the
Altivec instruction set, as you suggest you do, then I would
know exactly whether or not it can help move data around.
With the wider data-types that it supports, I suspect it can.
But I don't know. I was just trying to help.

>For example, in a mailing list (WO-Dev) I just read that G4s running
>typical server applications (webservers, tier apps and databases) that
>move a lot of data does not typically run faster with "n" mhz G4
>compared to a "n" mhz G3.

And those measurements might say more about the application
than the kernel, which is what we were talking about, I believe.

>But neither information supports that the core needs altivec.
> On the contrary, I'd say.

Of course it doesn't _require_ it, but is it able to support higher throughput
_with_ it? Probably. We'll never know unless some kernel developer shows
us his benchmark and performance numbers.

Take care!

[Steven Fisher]

In article <bfu7kh$j0j$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, Mike <mghall@enteract.com>
wrote:

> I've heard the UNIX kernel described as little more than 'bcopy()'.
> In other words, it just moves lots of data around.
> If the Altivec instructions can help in that regard, then maybe he's right.

Exactly. There's a lot of copying going on, although I think at least
some of this was removed with Quartz Extreme. It may not have as big an
impact on recent G3s as on older models.

[Mikael Bystroem]

Mike <mghall@enteract.com> wrote:

> If I had any detailed knowledge of the
> Altivec instruction set, as you suggest you do,

I have not suggested that I do, but I had the impression altivec
instructions helps speedwise only for certain mathematical operations.
Moving data is not one of those AFAIK.

>then I would
> know exactly whether or not it can help move data around.
> With the wider data-types that it supports, I suspect it can.

OK, I accept that the GUI and Quartz may need or can make good use of
certain mathematical operations. But that does not make the core of OS X
run faster on a G4 compared to a G3, nor does *every* application run
faster because of it. The GUI is not even a part of the core AFAIK. At
least it wasn't last time I checked. Feel free to correct me if you know
otherwise.

Some applications may run faster, typically a *lot* faster if they
support altivec and make heavy use of such operations. But as my
personal real life experience from other apps, that does not use the GUI
in a large extent or that does not support altivec, doesn't support
Steves notion, I find it hard to believe.

He may still be right of course, but I'd like a knowledgeable
explanation of how it can work like that and under what circumstances,
before I believe it. Please don't be offended by this.