Illustrator CS: Let's talk about the new text engine.

[Gloria_Chen@adobeforums.com]

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[douglas_j_reynolds@adobeforums.com]

This was an impressive article on what should be a dynamite new text engine. But why, if it is the same engine as InDesign, is it so SLOWWWW? Typing text into the middle of a few paragraphs takes 3-5 seconds PER CHARACTER!!!

G4 800 mHz 512 RAM 10.2.8

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Sure does.

[Jamie_Dennis@adobeforums.com]

Hello all,

After reading most of this entire thread I have a few comments. I am a designer for a company that produces packaging files. I am also responsible for all of our CPUs, software, etc. I too bought several copies of the complete CS package without knowing about this type issue. My bad for not researching this.

We have several hundred if not thousands of package files that get updated all the time. They have tons of text on each that needs to be edited on a daily basis. We use several printers to print our material and ALL of them are still using AI8 and show no sign of upgrading anytime soon.

I can understand Adobe's stance on wanting to improve the software but now like Adam I am stuck with unusable software. There is no way our boss is going to pay us to redo the files in CS and also take the risk of our printers getting a file that they can't use. They often need to make a last minute adjustment to our text right before press time, i.e., a UPC code and PBM number, etc. So they have to be able to update our files.

I really hope Adobe has some plan to help us all fix this problem, it really almost seems like they don't care.

I'm all for using the latest and greatest software/hardware but this is ridiculous!

I'll see ya back in AI10, happy editing...

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

"We use several printers to print our material and ALL of them are still using AI8 and show no sign of upgrading anytime soon."

Are you sure? Most of the printers I'm familiar with still prefer files from older versions of Illustrator - why shouldn't they; it's what they're most familiar with - but they generally at least have a copy of the newer version just in case.

So what are you doing with Illustrator 10? Saving back to AI8 format to send off your files? Do you have to get your printer's approval to upgrade your creative software? I can understand the lament when your client can't or doesn't wish to upgrade, but I'm sorry, - I don't think there's any excuse for a "service bureau" to refuse anything newer than Illustrator 8.

[Justin_Roszkowski@adobeforums.com]

I have a similar question for you. Most of the clients we work with are still using Illustrator 8. If you save a file as a AI 8 file from AICS, your text and images will all get cut up and re formatted.

Now what happens if your client is working in 8 and wants to do minor corrections? Is there a way of not destroying everything.

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

You can create a file that is editable in an older version, like AI8, but you bring up two separate issues. Text and images only get cut up or rasterized if some kind of transparency is used in the file - AI8 does not support transparency. Having text be editable in AI8 is a different issue. A legacy file exported from CS and opened in AI8 will have any text broken into bits of point type, but all its font, size and style attributes will be retained. It will look just like the CS file from which it came. If you need to edit the file in CS, you’ll have to select the type as a block with one of the arrow tools and cut it. With the Type tool, drag out a text box and paste. The type will flow in correctly, but you may have to further edit it for spacing and leading.

[Ann_Shelbourne@adobeforums.com]

Douglas and Doug:

Could the slow type-setting that you are seeing be due to you both using Jaguar? I don't see this problem in Panther?

Or could it be due to font conflicts?
Try replacing Helvetica, Symbol, Times and Zapf Dingbats .dfonts with either Type 1s or OTFs in System/Library/Fonts.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Ann, I'll be upgrading shortly. IN THE MEANTIME, do me a small favor when you get
a chance:

Drag out an area type block. Fill it with type (gibberish if you have little time). Apply
some "advanced" settings to it, e.g., OpenType font with ligatures, alternates, and
the like, Optical kerning, Optical margin alignment, Everyline composer. Make sure
you have two or three relatively dense paragraphs' worth of type. Maybe add some
"space after" in the Paragraphs palette. Maybe even assign this chunk of text a
Paragraph style.

OK. Now set your type cursor back into the type block. Anywhere. Now add a word.
or two. Delete some letters. Rearrange some pieces of the text. Add a few "dischys."

You see no slowdown in Panther? No waiting for keystrokes to display? If not, then
I'll be very relieved to conclude it's Jaguar which, in turn, will accelerate my upgrade
schedule. But someone here said he was seeing the SAME delays in Panther....

[Ann_Shelbourne@adobeforums.com]

<< You see no slowdown in Panther? No waiting for keystrokes to display? >>

I tried this using Adobe Jenson Pro.otf with ALL the bells ringing and all the whistles blowing. No visible slow down!

If type input is slow on your machine with Every Line composing, try going into Single Line mode while editing and then switching back to Every Line mode.

Although Illustrator CS purportedly uses the new text engine, but it is far more highly developed in InDesign CS where you have the Paragraph Composer and the ability to use all the attributes of the OTF fonts.

If I have anything that uses more than a few words of Type, I prefer to take the illustrator images into InDesign and add the body-text there.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Thanks, Ann. BTW, what "attributes of the OTF fonts" are available in InDesign that
I don't have access to in AICS?

[Ann_Shelbourne@adobeforums.com]

There is a whole raft of Type controls in InD that either don't seem to be part of Illustrator or are irritating to use in it: Paragraph Composer, Tables, 8 different kinds of fixed spaces, 7 kinds of "breaks", Optical margin alignment, easy insertion of Drop caps., Text Wrap, Special Character Insertion, etc. You can get at the OTF alternate characters in AICS but I just prefer the whole Typesetting landscape (and the tidy little palettes that collapse back to their parking places down down the edge of the screen!).

Download the trial version of InDesign CS and see what you think.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Okidoki.

[Warren_Westbo@adobeforums.com]

Hi Mordy, et.al

I just finished reading your synopsis and all the responses regarding the new type engine. I'm happy that you are excited and view this as truly an advancement. It seems all's well with the world between Mac and PC, AI and PS etc. However, I need to deal with day to day reality. The majority of my clients are using AI 8, 9 and in some cases 10. These are Fortune 500 companies, printers and agencies. My files, created in CS, converted to a legacy version are not opening cleanly. Pointed type is common PROBLEM as well as placed images now must be saved ASCI vs. binary or they will not export. My AI docs DO NOT use any features unique to CS or AI 10, (i.e., transparency) and are for the most part, CMYK. The work around as you've outlined does restore type to an editable form, but what a pain in the butt! This is not the ultimate solution. I now deal with angry recipients who complain my files have these problems. Time is money and credibility all too valuable and fleeting.

Do you or any of the others posting here, know of any solutions, updates/patches-whatever that may be in the works either at Adobe or third party that will truly address this MAJOR compatiblity issue? I'd sure like some help... FAST.

In the meantime, I'm gonna pack up AICS, bells, whistles and all and reinstall AI 10.

Warren Westbo

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Warren, out of curiosity, are those with AI10 having as much trouble as those with
AI8? (I'm trying to figure out if the problems get more severe the older the version.)
And when you say you must save as ASCI v. Binary or they will not "export," do you
mean your clients are opening your CS files with placed images (I assume link-placed)
in their prior version and not seeing the links, or that they do see them but are trying
to export the opened files to some other format without success?

[Warren_Westbo@adobeforums.com]

Hi Doug,

Problems do get more severe with older versions. When saving back from AI 10, I make absolute sure that all settings, colors, gradients or filters used are compatible to earlier versions. When using 10, placed images "embedded" have less problems than those "linked".

CS is not allowing an export as a legacy version if the image (i.e. PS EPS) is anything other ASCI. Also, it will not allow saving as an CS EPS if there is a linked EPS Binary image. It instructs the placed image to be saved as an ASCI EPS.

And life use to be so simple.

Warren

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

.... and life used to be so simple....

[Matthew_T_Lloyd@adobeforums.com]

Hi everybody - what a string!
My issue has nothing to do with speed issues or compatability - just one wierd thing where we cannot type the # (alt 3) character, in any font, using illustrator CS. We use this character alot when setting braille, as it denotes a number is coming up in a line of copy. Suitcase previews # fine, but ai just will not, forcing us to use ai10. Otherwise aiCS works well (so far!). Any thoughts anybody?

Matthew Lloyd
Think Graphic Design
[email]mail@thinkgraphicdesign.co.uk[/email]

[Steve_Werner@adobeforums.com]

On a US English version of AICS, Option/Alt-3 produces the pound sign. Shift-3 produces the number sign.

Perhaps its a keyboard/versioning issue.

Can you see the character in the Glyphs palette for your font, and double-click to insert?

Does it happen with every font?

[G_A@adobeforums.com]

Yes let's talk about the new text engine...

What was Adobe thinking...? Yes this is a good thing but it's also a bad one since Adobe never considered how to intergrate this new feature. All tha Adobe offered was a limited choice of on or off.

If you have a mixed environment such what I have you can understand this headache, we have thousands of previously created illustrator files, I asked for this upgrade package (which I regret, and will try to obtain a refund) -- not knowing until I see the read me the headache this program will create.

At least Apple got it right, they wanted to rewrite the OS from scratch BUT they even considered the user.. leaving the ability of OS 9.

Who beta tested this app?

I open an old file I have a choice update or ok, I choose update-- but if there are changes I wouldn't know- there is nothing to automatically tell me what was modified ( unless I retype- great) OR I open and select OK but now I can't edit-- oops and if I do want to add to it I now have to remember to EXPORT so that other users on the older text engine can still open the files.. way to go.

Why did Adobe create a better transition.. the choice to open files and remain with the old text engine, or if not then open files and automatically see what changed and allow the user to either keep changes or remain as previous.

Adobe should have issued the new release with a BIG WARNING:

WARINING: Not recommended for Mix environment of older Illustrator users, for best results please make sure the ENTIRE work group is updated to the latest version.

OR WARNING: Use of this application will require duplication of your entire file system.

I do hope there is a better solution that does not require 5 more attention steps to obtain a simple result.
:(