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Is InDesign the right product for our needs? - Adobe Indesign Windows

Ken, PSE will also create a new doent automatically from a clipboard image. File->New From Clipboard. (Version 2, I don't know if version 1 does this.) Thanks for the tip on CMYK conversion at PDF creation time. As I said, this is not an issue for us, since we do strictly grayscale work. I've yet to find anything I wanted to do to a photo that I can't do with PSE and the add-ons that come with Richard Lynch's book. And that goes for the paid work I do in grayscale and the hobby stuff I do in color....

  1. #21

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Ken,

    PSE will also create a new doent automatically from a clipboard image. File->New From Clipboard. (Version 2, I don't know if version 1 does this.)

    Thanks for the tip on CMYK conversion at PDF creation time. As I said, this is not an issue for us, since we do strictly grayscale work.

    I've yet to find anything I wanted to do to a photo that I can't do with PSE and the add-ons that come with Richard Lynch's book. And that goes for the paid work I do in grayscale and the hobby stuff I do in color.
    Stu_Bloom@adobeforums.com Guest

  2. #22

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Ken, you say:

    CMYK is not really an issue if you have a PDF workflow. Work in RGB in InDesign and do the CMYK conversion when you output to PDF - but with reservations that need some trial error over things like transparency and any other factors which call for cohesion between the colour settings of different objects.

    I disagree. If your output is print, you should convert to CMYK before any color correction or placement. Using RGB photos that most likely will have some colors out of gamut can give you very poor results when letting the PDF do the conversion.

    Many a time a photo is very nice and has vivid colors in RGB, but the conversion to CMYK can dull them. Most recently, I worked with graphic that had a very bright and pretty blue that was totally destroyed to an ugly blue/grey color when converted from RGB, to CMYK. It was out of gamut.

    Gotta start with CMYK and keep it that way all the way through the process. That is if you are serious about your work. Can't imagine anyone spending the kind of money on programs like ID that aren't serious about having the highest quality.

    If you are going greyscale 99% of the time and only have the rare color photo, then maybe Elements would work.

    Just my opinion, and I have a lot left to learn, that is for sure.

    Kirk
    Kirk_Dickinson@adobeforums.com Guest

  3. #23

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Kirk,

    For the most part you're right. But, with a completely color managed
    workflow, you can actually work in RGB from start to finish with
    excellent results. This entails a lot of work to get set up as far as
    getting everything--scanners, monitors, printers, presses, calibrated
    and profiles created, but once that's done the results are excellent.

    Bob

    Robert_Levine@adobeforums.com Guest

  4. #24

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Thanks for pointing that out Stu.

    k


    Ken_Grace@adobeforums.com Guest

  5. #25

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    I've been reading that the current vogue is to use RGB workflows.

    And there are Photoshop gurus that argue for using L*a*b.

    RGB colours - I find blues and oranges in particular - will inevitably look
    duller in CMYK, but I haven't found that converting them prior to letting
    InDesign do it in the PDF creation is any improvement.

    I would agree that if you are working in created graphics, seeing CMYK from
    the start would give you the option to modify the mix. But if you are
    working with full colour photographic images you are getting into really
    specialist territory to start adjusting colours, and that's not territory
    I'm familiar with - or want to be.

    I find placing a photographic image in whatever form it is supplied gives me
    perfectly acceptable results in the final PDF - with the caveats that
    embedded colour profiles can distort the result (why do people do that when
    they have no way of knowing what the final press output is going to be?!)
    and that mixing RGB and CMYK can cause problems if you are using
    transparency.

    k


    Ken_Grace@adobeforums.com Guest

  6. #26

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Ken,

    RGB files should always have embedded profiles. That's what makes the
    conversion to CMYK successful.

    I'm not going to get into any great detail here because I'm not a color
    management expert, but the purpose of the profile is to let all the
    devices that need to display the graphic, know just how it's supposed to
    look.

    Bob

    Robert_Levine@adobeforums.com Guest

  7. #27

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    What happens if you have a page with more than one coloured graphic, and the
    graphics have different embedded profiles?

    k


    Ken_Grace@adobeforums.com Guest

  8. #28

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    The profiles are based on how they were created so I expect that would
    be the case. Scanners, monitors, digital cameras, etc will embed a
    different profile to let each step in a color managed workflow keep the
    color accurate.

    Here's a good site to browse: [url]http://www.hutchcolor.com/[/url]

    Bob

    Robert_Levine@adobeforums.com Guest

  9. #29

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Thanks Bob. Sites like frighten me - you think you know a bit about
    something and they show you know diddly squat.

    In a magazine environment when illustrations and advertisements are coming
    from all directions I have found that the most problems arise when ads or
    illustrations have embedded colour profiles. I have always understood that
    colour profiles adjust colour rendering to compensate for dot gain, paper,
    ink chemistry and other printing characteristics, and that unless you know
    how a job is to be printed, applying a colour profile could do more harm
    than good.

    One company that regularly sends me press releases has a standard rider to
    the releases that specifies the CMYK and RAL colour for its machine
    paintwork, and demands that I ensure that the machine picture is printed in
    those colours ! The machine is light blue, and the requirement is 'not to
    print in green'. Opening the files in some graphics viewer type programs
    does, in fact, show the machine as dark green. The pictures have an embedded
    colour profile and I have assumed that this is being read and interpreted by
    some programs in a way that distorts the colour to this unacceptable level,
    and that not to have embedded a colour profile would be safer than doing so.

    Am I confusing profiles used, as you say, to balance colour from different
    creation devices with profiles intended to compensate for printing
    distortions?

    k





    Ken_Grace@adobeforums.com Guest

  10. #30

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    I think so. But again, I'm not the expert here. There is a color
    management forum you might want to browse through.

    Some of the threads there will leave you scratching your head for sure. <g>

    Bob

    Robert_Levine@adobeforums.com Guest

  11. #31

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Thanks Bob.

    I think I'll forego that pleasure and just stay with my crude 'if it works
    it works and don't fiddle with it' approach.

    k


    Ken_Grace@adobeforums.com Guest

  12. #32

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Ken -

    "Wrong. Ad agencies are being paid by the advetisers, not the publisher."

    If I hire someone to produce work for me, as the one who signs the PO, I am the one who gets to decide what format they submit to me. Of course, it's all specified up front in the request for a bid.

    Yes, I have had some agencies and design shops say they can't give me what I know I need, so I tell them that I'm dreadfully sorry they will not be invited to bid on the project.
    Fulana_Detal@adobeforums.com Guest

  13. #33

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    I quite agree, but that's got nothing to do with the original question.


    The original poster was asking about setting up a magazine.

    Magazines carry paid advertising.

    The paid advertising is produced for the advertisers by advertising
    agencies.

    The advertisers pay both the publisher and the advertising agency.

    I have never yet come across a publisher who pays an advertising agency to
    produce advertisements.

    Any publisher who takes to the snooty high ground and turns away paid
    advertising because it's not supplied in a specific format won't be a
    publisher for very long.


    k


    Ken_Grace@adobeforums.com Guest

  14. #34

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?



    Any publisher who takes to the snooty high ground and turns away paid
    advertising because it's not supplied in a specific format won't be a
    publisher for very long.




    We accept a narrow range of formats - InDesign, PageMaker, PDF, TIF, and (with warnings that we're not responsible for glitches) JPG. We turn down Word, Publisher, and Quark. The advertisers who aren't savvy enough to supply PDFs generally aren't the advertisers with leverage, and they're people who are not going to buy enough advertising to justify the cost of dealing with their oddball formats. We did have one advertiser who wanted to send us Quark files and who was valuable enough that we planned to hold our nose and buy a copy of Quark to accommodate him - but before that became necessary, one of our much larger competitors instituted a PDF-only policy, and that motivated our potential advertiser (now a current advertiser) to go the PDF route.

    We've yet to lose an account because of this policy.
    Stu_Bloom@adobeforums.com Guest

  15. #35

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Stu wrote:
    "I produce a 12-to-28 page tabloid newspaper every week..."

    That sounds like a fun job!
    KR@adobeforums.com Guest

  16. #36

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    "We've yet to lose an account because of this policy."

    I'm glad to hear that.



    "We accept a narrow range of formats - InDesign, PageMaker, PDF, TIF, and
    (with warnings that we're not responsible for glitches) JPG."

    Not EPS? PSD?




    "and they're people who are not going to buy enough advertising to justify
    the cost of dealing with their oddball formats."

    OK. But they're buying some advertising. And what does it cost to deal with
    their oddball formats? I guess you do all your own pre-press, which makes a
    difference. But I use a separate repro company because they've got all the
    stuff I haven't, like professional scanning equipment, all the software on
    all the hardware formats you could ever need, all the IT savvy to make this
    stuff perform. I don't turn away any advertiser on the basis of the format
    of his ad. He might be small today, but he might be a lot bigger tomorrow,
    and I want to be the good guy.


    "We've yet to lose an account because of this policy."

    Again, I'm glad to hear that. How many accounts didn't you get because of
    this policy?



    And I'll just point you back to the reason for my comment, which was someone
    up this thread who thought that publishers paid advertising agents and so
    could call the tune.

    k



    Ken_Grace@adobeforums.com Guest

  17. #37

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    I am in the same predicament with trying to find a suitable software to produce large manuals. I have found that InDesign can do almost everything Word can but I can't seem t find specific things I need. Maybe you can help. My company just "feels" Word is not the appropriate software. these books range from 50 to 500 pages and all use the same layout. The one thing I would love to have that word has is the fields that link the chapter title into the headers. That saves me a lot of sanity time when the writer changes thier mind. Also, Assigning a page to fall on an Odd setting. Even a different first page. It almost sounds as if I need FrameMaker but it's been a couple years since I have worked in it and boy did i hate it then. I had a lot of issues. Any Ideas?
    Dawn_Cordova@adobeforums.com Guest

  18. #38

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?



    Not EPS? PSD?




    EPS only if there is no text (except as outlines), because of font issues. We'd take PSD, but we've never had anyone request it.

    what does it cost to deal with their oddball formats?




    More than it's worth

    I guess you do all your own pre-press, which makes a difference




    You guess wrong

    How many accounts didn't you get because of this policy?




    None. We've yet to have an advertiser pull an ad or a potential advertiser not place an ad because we told them we can't accept Publisher, or Word, or Quark, or CorelDraw, or PowerPoint, or (I am not making this up) Greeting Card Factory. They've all managed to figure out how to create PDFs or TIFs, or they've provided us hard copy to scan.

    I use a separate repro company because they've got all the stuff I haven't,
    like professional scanning equipment, all the software on all the hardware
    formats you could ever need, all the IT savvy to make this stuff perform.





    And they do all that for free, right? Where I live, they charge by the hour, and I don't have that kind of budget. Nor do our schedules permit it. I give the printer ready-to-impose PDFs.

    I don't turn away any advertiser on the basis of the format of his ad.
    He might be small today, but he might be a lot bigger tomorrow, and I
    want to be the good guy.




    With a layout staff consisting of two part-timers, I don't have the luxury of ignoring time and cost and being the good guy. Before we instituted this policy, it was not unusual to spend an hour and a half of staff time trying to convert a $30 ad.
    Stu_Bloom@adobeforums.com Guest

  19. #39

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Hi there,

    In response to the original message in this forum as well as post number 50 (which concerns the question of whether or not to purchase InDesign), I thought I would make my contribution to the discussion. I used FrameMaker for two years producing technical manuals, and I think it has big advantages over InDesign in its indexing and Table of Contents generation. Also, being able to create bulleted lists without buying more software is nice. I think the real advantage of InDesign over other programs is all the software magic that you can't see: the sophisticated algorithms that Adobe created for the careful flowing of text. You do get nicer looking pages with InDesign than with just about anything else (although I admit my knowledge of other programs like Quark and Ventura, is limited). I would not recommend Word for anything other than letters or unformatted doents; it puts in a lot of code you can't control, and if you use lots of graphics, it gets very unstable. So, to perhaps settle the question: use InDesign for publications up to magazine length and/or with lots of graphics (i.e., where the 'look' is the key issue), but for proper books or manuals, FrameMaker is an excellent choice (especially if you need to create an index). I look forward to a barrage of responses.
    Junji_Nishihata@adobeforums.com Guest

  20. #40

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    OK Stu, we'll have to agree to differ. Your way works for you, my way works
    for me.

    I don't understand how I can be wrong when I suggest you might be doing your
    own pre-press, but you also say you don't have the budget for someone else
    to do it.

    Anyway, this started from an assertion that advertising agencies should
    deliver what a publisher requires, because the publisher pays - and that's
    flat wrong.

    I still believe it's necessary for a publisher to be able to accept all
    formats. If someone books a 2,000 ad with me and a Mac CD arrives with a
    Quark file on it by courier at the 11th hour, I'm not going to refuse to run
    the ad because it's in the wrong format. I'll get the thing converted.

    k


    Ken_Grace@adobeforums.com Guest

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