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Is InDesign the right product for our needs? - Adobe Indesign Windows

These are the books I've never seen. Who writes them, and who buys them? Many legal and academic books have 1000s of footnotes, section numbering, cross references, and running heads. I regularly set the reports of permanent commission of inquiry and each chapter may have 200+ footnotes (and there may be up to 20 chapters). They also use legal numbering (1.1, 1.1.1) and need running heads, cross references, and table and figure numbering. Who buys them? Speaking for the books I set, universiy students, lawyers, libraries, Government departments, interested members of the public. My experience, which is probably typical, is ...

  1. #61

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    These are the books I've never seen. Who writes them, and who buys them?

    Many legal and academic books have 1000s of footnotes, section numbering, cross references, and running heads. I regularly set the reports of permanent commission of inquiry and each chapter may have 200+ footnotes (and there may be up to 20 chapters). They also use legal numbering (1.1, 1.1.1) and need running heads, cross references, and table and figure numbering. Who buys them? Speaking for the books I set, universiy students, lawyers, libraries, Government departments, interested members of the public.

    My experience, which is probably typical, is that footnotes are not common.

    If by experience you mean your experience of setting books, then I imagine it is common among ID forum users, because those that do this sort of work just don't use ID. However, if by experience you mean your experience of hardly ever seeing or reading books like this, I seriously doubt it is common. Or maybe it's just that in your country (the US, I presume), the market won't buy footnoted books.

    But I can assure they that they're far from rare in New Zealand or other countries I have visited. Many non-fiction books have notes and many ordinary people buy them. And many more books have cross references (even just simple ones like "see page X"). For example, a quick look round my office reveals The Coming Plague (a non-fiction book on viruses that was marketed heavily here) with over 100 pages of endnotes, a biography of Stanley Morison with 22 pages of endnotes, Bringhurst, which has section numbering, the Chicago Manual of Style (section numbering and running heads), the OED (running heads), the Oxford Manual of Style (section numbering), Bowker's Bookmaking (running heads), Williamson's Methods of Book Design (numbering, running heads). I'd honestly be staggered if the situation were not the same in your country.
    Dominic_Hurley@adobeforums.com Guest

  2. #62

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Ken -
    FYI, the OP was talking about books, not magazines.

    I was talking about having an ad agency or graphics artist doing illustrations for me, for publication in my books, my websites or whatever I'm creating. If I'm the one signing the cheques, they can't tell me what format I have to accept from them ... either they can give me something I can work with (or that my printer can work with) or they don't get work from me.

    Magazines are at the mercy of their advertisers - and I've been an advertiser. The magazine has to be able accept what we deliver or they don't get the ads.

    ARRGH: edited to add
    Considering indexing, running headers taken from paragraph styles, footnotes and endnotes ... the bulk of non-fiction publication uses one or more of these. Look at at any cookbook, how-to book, biography, or legal book to see them. Because InDesign can't do them, you will not find many InDesign users who have encountered them.
    Fulana_Detal@adobeforums.com Guest

  3. #63

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Fulana

    "FYI, the OP was talking about books, not magazines."

    I agree, but that wasn't the question you were answering. Your reply wasn't
    to the original poster, but to brian_r_martin who told us

    "Im developing the editorial content for a magazine and I am unclear if
    InDesign 2.0 the full version is a great stand alone program or if I will
    need several more products such a photoshop, pagemaker etc."

    You quoted his question "And as far as the Ad agencies, is the standard for
    them to email or snail mail the "artwork" file? (or put a disc in my hand)."
    in your post.



    "I was talking about having an ad agency or graphics artist doing
    illustrations for me, for publication in my books, my websites or whatever
    I'm creating. If I'm the one signing the cheques, they can't tell me what
    format I have to accept from them ... either they can give me something I
    can work with (or that my printer can work with) or they don't get work from
    me."

    I quite agree.




    "Magazines are at the mercy of their advertisers - and I've been an
    advertiser. The magazine has to be able accept what we deliver or they don't
    get the ads."

    That's more or less what I was saying.

    k


    Ken_Grace@adobeforums.com Guest

  4. #64

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    > If by experience you mean your experience of setting books, then I imagine
    it is common among ID forum users, because those that do this sort of work
    just don't use ID.

    Thanks, I take your point and agree. My experience setting books is limited
    to what my company does, and we don't do footnotes. As for reading, I don't
    ever sit with a legal book or college text for pleasure reading, so my
    experience is as a general reader of 'over-the-counter' works. :-) Many of
    the history books I read have footnotes, but as I said, the quantity of them
    doesn't appear high enough to warrant 'special' software.

    -John O



    JohnO@adobeforums.com Guest

  5. #65

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    As for reading, I don't ever sit with a legal book or college text for pleasure reading.

    Fair enough, neither do I. And none of the titles I listed in my post fall into those categories. I'm still surprised that you don't ever see any for the features I listed in books that you read - and I'm not just talking footnotes here ("these features that make FM so special...I never see them in print").
    Dominic_Hurley@adobeforums.com Guest

  6. #66

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    OK Dominic, which software do you use for this type of book/report?
    Ventura or Framemaker? :-)

    Brian

    Brian_Smithson@adobeforums.com Guest

  7. #67

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    I've used both and like features of both. FrameMaker I found more stable and I love its numbering and cross-referencing features (they're so simple and useful) but I hate its word-processor level typography. Ventura is buggy (though I've never had a corrupt file) but it has some great typography features that even ID doesn't and though I'm not fond of its numbering features, I really, really love the navigator (and the fact that one file = a publication, not a chapter). Because typographic control is a big thing for me, most of the time I use Ventura. I wouldn't mind trying out Quark XPress with the AutoPage XTension, but it's out of my price range. Whichever app I use, I still prefer to run footnotes in separate linked frames for maximum control, because neither Ventura nor FM does footnotes well enough for me to leave them up to the program.
    Dominic_Hurley@adobeforums.com Guest

  8. #68

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Huh, that was a lot of pro FM and the opposite concerning ID. We've just ordered ID CS as a part of the creative suite and are expecting its arrival within some days and will have to stick it out.

    As fars as our segment goes 1000s of footnotes, endnotes long bulleted lists etc. is not relevant. As with most books made for joyful reading and pleasant skimming through - a good design, clean text, good pictures and illustrations are essential. Footnotes will only occour in very limited numbers.
    I guess we will manage somehow. I was just a bit anxious reading one comment above that ID was not so good placing images as FM, which of course would be bad for us.

    All the comparing between ID, FM and others, are those based on ID CS or are the differences between CD and 2.0 so small that in most cases it is indifferent?

    I guess I am a fairly slow learner and it usually takes me up to a year before I feel I fully master a program, and if the future of bookdesign lies within ID why not struggle a bit in the beginning, get real creative in finding solutions and enjoy the improvements as they come..Smart move from Adobe to save some major improvements, because if not why upgrade.. I don't belong to the people who upgrade just because there's a new version. There must be something substantial in it...

    In any bookstore I've been to here in Europe (unless it is a bookstore within university / college boundaries) the books dominating are novels, and fairly light designed books connected to a subject (geography, travelling, cooking).. Of course there are books with complex text structures, but they belong to the minority :)

    Having made a couple of books with ID we can always switch if it is too afwul :)
    Morten_Helgesen@adobeforums.com Guest

  9. #69

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    ID is better than FM for placing images manually. It is just more limited for inline graphics. So for long doents, you will have more manual work but better precision than in FM. You mentioned spreading an image across two pages: this is a real pain in FM (you have to create two copies of the image and crop them), but easy in ID. Something you didn't mention, though: ID most likely has a better future than FM and is likely to incorporate at least some of FM's features in the future.
    Philo_Calhoun@adobeforums.com Guest

  10. #70

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    >Something you didn't mention, though: ID most likely has a better future
    than FM and is likely to incorporate at least some of FM's features in the
    future.


    I speculate ID will do to FM what it did to PM.

    -John O


    JohnO@adobeforums.com Guest

  11. #71

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    That would be my hope, but I really don't see it picking up as many of FM's features as it did PM's - after all, ID was designed specifically to be PM's replacement (and a "Quark killer"), so it's not a surprise that it duplicates most of PM. However, my belief is that there are not a large group of users who want FM's features in ID. (I can remember seeing posts in this forum around the time of ID2's release saying that ID was the perfect DTP app already and that it was hard to imagine what more could possibly be added to it.) Given that sort of user base, and the fact that Thomas Phinney said that ID already had most of FM's features, I don't expect that we'll see a lot of change any time soon. (I'd like to be proved wrong, though.)
    Dominic_Hurley@adobeforums.com Guest

  12. #72

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    I wouldn't think so. They can keep presenting new versions with minor changes some time, but sooner or later they will have to present som major changes in order to sell a lot of upgrades.

    It might also depend on the salesvolume of FM. If this was to fall to insignificant levels, why put resources into developing that product? On the other hand, going through Adobes list of products I wonder if not quite some of them could be merged?

    Anyway I am awaiting my copy of ID with excitement and ordered some books on it as well, so it will be ID for me.

    Thanks for alle the replies. Some helped. Some made me more confused, but I guess that's the way it is :)
    Morten_Helgesen@adobeforums.com Guest

  13. #73

    Default Re: Is InDesign the right product for our needs?

    Oh, they will always be able to add new features for the magazine and ad design crowd (just check out the feature requests list!), but I just haven't seen any evidence that Adobe is at all serious about adding long-doent features to ID. Sure, if the FM user base falls then they'll dump it (as they've just done for FM Mac), but that doesn't mean they'll copy the features over. After all, if the long-doent user base is too small for FM, why add FM features to ID when the target market for ID (Quark Xpress users) don't want them either?
    Dominic_Hurley@adobeforums.com Guest

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