Is it worth it?

[Bastiboy]

Hi everyone,

I'm new in this forum and my first question my seem simple to you. What does
ColdFusion offer against other serverside scripting languages? I normally do my
scripting with ASP and SQL querys, and I was wondering if it is really worth
learning coldfusion as maybe it would interact better with dreamweaver and
flash. I use other macromedia programs such as flash, dw and fireworks. Thanks.

[Ciphertje]

There is a topic wich somewhat covers your question:

[url]http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=3&thread[/url]
id=1040189
(CFML-General Discussion -> CFML vs PHP vs ASP/ASP.NET)


For me, i was active in php, switching to CF was really easy and i picked it
up incredibly fast. And i know i'm not an exception. :D

[noah howard]

I'm telling you, I started to learn it about anhour ago, I wnet through what I
considered to be a good tutorial and after messing with ASP I'm in love. Like
the tutorial said, if businesses like it you should love it, if you look at
any hiring site you'll see there are a lot of people willing to pay good money
for ColdFusion Developers.

[Bastiboy]

Thanks guys, but isn't it best learning something on the .net platform (i.e:
asp.net)? It seems more popular than coldfusion doesn't it? How about
compatibility? does coldfusion run on most web servers?
Tnanks again.

[scottcook]

..net, sure it's free and unfortunately business tends to frequently base their
choice of development environments on that. Of course, they're totally
neglecting the fact that you can develop stuff in CF so much quicker. The
price of CF gets quickly paid for when you factor in the productivity gains.
CF runs on most every web server unlike .net. You can also deploy it as an app
on top of a wide range of java app servers, e.g. weblogic, websphere, etc. Now
if you're looking to learn something to get a job, then you might want to
consider learning .net but please do download CFMX developer edition and see
what it's all about. I doubt you'll want to develop in .net after that.

[Andley Jandley]

Its hard to say if its worth it without knowing your circumstances - I am a
person who very much belives coldfusion is a technology that is being passed
over by more and more by web developers. It is probably the least popular
server scripting language. This may or may not matter to you, depending on what
you need. But many new develoeprs go with .NET or Java simply because these are
the industry choice tools and these are the skills that are infinitely mre
likely to land them jobs. If not these, it's usually PHP.

Can you build sites faster in coldfusion, well, not neccasarrily. You can
build very hard to manage and scale websites very very quickly - as you can in
any language. Given that pro web development, actual coding is only approx 25%
of the time invested and given that coldfusion requires that you learn ALL of
the same programming principles that you MUST learn in and language, there's
mor hype here than practical truth. what cf wraps in a tag, many platform wrap
up in a class or API of some sort - the long term solution is to learn things
properly, not try to take shortcuts.

Having said that, thats just my opinion - I dont know anybody at all that
thinks thay can build a site on cf faster than in .net -but thats likely
becuase they are faster at .net as this is the one they chose to adopt. cf is
only faster if you already know it. Personally, with php ther is so much pre
written code and apps that its vert trivial to put most apps together in amtter
of days - with cf, there's not much of an industry around it and not even close
to as much pre written code and apps - so it can take a heck of a lot longer to
build cf apps.

Nonetheless, for a short term fix, cf does attract non technical types to
programming. sadly, most move on to other languages shortly after - mostly due
to lack of support for cf with hosters, lack of employers needing cf people and
, pesonaly, I think attracted away by the larger and more vibrant communities
of the others - not to mention the millions of pre written apps and code that
cf just doesn't have.

Don't get me wrong, if cf suits your situation, great!! It's a nice language
to code in and darn good fun if you you know is html - it's very exciting
stuff. And as another poster said, cf actually does seem to be fairly big in us
government. I guess is you want to work in us goverment, it may be a smart move
and you should be able to pick up many contracts and such. But the general
percption of cf is that is not such a big player these days. (it used to be big
several years ago)

CF does has it's advantages but when most folk draw up a well researched list
of pros and cons, and cf happens to get a column on that list (which is getting
quite rare) it usually losed more points than it gains. And it sucks for those
of us who enjoy cf!!

>> I normally do my scripting with ASP and SQL querys

this being the case, it would be more natural to move into .net stuff as this
would most definitely provide you with many more oppurtunties. use cf if you
can afford to pay for an expensive server that focuses on web stuff - use .net
if you want to develop for a major enterprise platform that goes well beyond
web scripting and offers a much more natural and stronger programming model.

[Andley Jandley]

>> .net, sure it's free and unfortunately business tends to frequently base
their
choice of development environments on that. Of course, they're totally
neglecting the fact that you can develop stuff in CF so much quicker.

I am not neccasarrily pro .net, but I do tend to cringe when reading
statements like this. You imply that business's are somehow neglectful when
choosing which technology to use, that perhaps they are all making a bad
choice? These people, most of them anyway, are not stupid. They have weighed up
the pros and cons of the various platforms and came to conclusions about which
is best for them.

If they have reason to belive that it is more difficult to find decent cf
coders, coders that are actual programmers and not designer/developers, or
they find that that cf tends to have a lot less of a community or pre written
code and apps, or they find that that the industry is standardising on either
..net or j2ee and they wish to benefit from everything that goes with such
standardisation, then it doesn't make them neglectful in any way - they likely
made the smart choice.

Its a myth - you cannot develop stuff in cf much quicker at all. There is only
a frraction of the source code and pre written apps around for it, using an
inelegant tag syntax instead of the more usual and expressive oo / dot notation
is trickier for many developers, and above all else, the bulk of app
development is language independant anyway - actual coding should only be
approx 25% of time spent. Any speed gained in cf is far outweighed by the fact
that such speed only came from poor coding practices and inexpereince with
developing trulyy scalable apps.

This is why cf is a great choice for web designers and those wishing to build
small to medium sites - anything beyond this and cf simply has very little to
offer over th elikes of .net and j2ee and php. The "RAD" argument doesn't work
any more, particulalry compared to .net .

I enjoy cf but at least i know where and when it makes sense - but at least I
can see that others are not 'neglectful' but rather they are not wrapped up in
coldfusion bubbles and are able to see the bigger picture. most people are
beginning to acknowledge that it is hard, real hard, to make a case for
cldfusion these days - there is a reason for this other than th eneglect of
others. People just don't fall for the RAD argument anymore as they know its
just not true for them - cf users need to turn to java more and more to get
things done in cf, its not a big leap to see that they may aswell stick with
standard java rather than go with the expensive and propriatary cf server.
Having to use even an ounce of java defeats the entire point of cf for many.

[MaryJo]

Hhm, "most people are beginning to acknowledge that it is hard to make a case
for coldfusion". "Most people" of course being Andy Main. Frankly, I find it
rather insulting to all the very experienced CF developers on here, many of
which also have coded in these other languages, to say that the only reason we
say CF is faster to develop in is because we have poor coding practices.
Newcomers to this forum wonder why so many of us are hostile to Andy? Well,
putting aside the fact that he never contributes anything useful other than
these constant "CF is dead" posts...even going so far as to hijack other
threads that have nothing to do with it, he constantly loves to throw out
totally false statements as if they are fact, and contridicting himself before
even finishing a paragraph. Such as stating that because so many cf users need
to use java (not true) that they might as well just skip using CF and use java
instead. And immediately jumping from that conclusion to saying that having to
use any java at all defeats the point of using cf. How does that even make
sense?? Let's say you needed to use a single java function in your CF app
(seldom really needed to begin with). Say maybe 1% of it. Would you give up all
the benefits of a RAD platform just because of that 1%? Thus increasing your
total coding time and maintenance time on top of that many many times over?
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! Anyone with an ounce of
intelligence would not have an issue with this. In fact, most developers that
work in CF consider it a nice way to get your feet wet with Java without having
to fully jump in head first.

Then we have statements about CF developers all jumping to other languages,
with a bunch of reasons that there is no evidence whatsoever to back up. This
in spite of the fact that a lot of us have been seeing increased interest in
CF...in my case, there has been a big surge in sales from outside the
US...enough that there will soon be a multi-language version of my software as
well because the demand for it has been so high. I don't doubt that there are
some developers that have switched to other languages...there always have been.
But this mass exodus that Andy is implying...sorry, I don't buy it. Macromedia
has said that the latest release was one of their most successful...and I see
no reason to doubt them just because Andy thinks CF is dying.

And I love the statement that the reason you cannot develop faster in CF is
because there aren't as many precoded apps written in it. Well, we've seen in
other threads that Andy doesn't even know about what precoded apps there *are*
for CF (in spite of his claims to be a CF expert). Frankly, it doesn't really
matter if there are thousands versus hundreds of options...as long as there
*are* some really good options to choose from, and that is certainly the case
for CF as well as other languages. And many of those precoded apps he goes on
about are poorly documented and hard to figure out, as is often typical for
open source, free apps. Oops, so much for all that time you think you saved.
Sure, there are some decent ones out there. But you often have to wade through
a lot of junk to find them. And none of that of course means anything in
regards to a comparison of coding times between languages. Even if you want to
say only 25% of the time is spent on coding, for a large application, a time
savings of 10% with CF on that 25% could still mean thousands of dollars saved.
And that's not even counting the time saved in maintenance, which is often even
more sizeable. If you want to compare use of precoded apps, I would say CF has
an even greater advantage here because its readability is far better than its
competitors (assuming decent coding to begin with), making it much easier to
learn and modify someone else's code.

As for the original poster's question...yes, you will definitely find that
ColdFusion is very easy to tie into Macromedia products like Flash. They've
improved integration with ASP and PHP a lot. But CF being a Macromedia product,
it will probably always have tighter integration than the others. It goes both
ways too. The latest version of CF includes a lot of nice Flash integration
such as the new cfform implementations. These may really help you quickly build
some great Flash applications. And yes, CF runs on a lot of different
platforms. In fact, with New Atlanta's Blue Dragon product, you can even run
your CFML application on .NET. This product has improved greatly over earlier
versions and is a quite viable (and cheaper) alternative to ColdFusion. We were
able to get CFWebstore to run on it with a fairly minimal amount of recoding.

[BKBK]

Bastiboy asked:

>... if it is really worth learning coldfusion as maybe it would interact

better

>... with dreamweaver and flash. I use other macromedia programs such as
>... flash, dw and fireworks.

Yes, Bastiboy, it is worth it. You have the best reason for adding Coldfusion
to
your to-do list. None less than Bill Gates once said, "Our stuff works best
with
our stuff". And you, Bastiboy, you seem to be well on your way to Rich
Internet Applications. Like a beautiful girl or a catchy tune, a RIA appeals
to the
senses by that je-ne-sais-quoi way in which it is put together. One either
gets it or one doesn't, but most people do.

[Andley Jandley]

>> Hhm, "most people are beginning to acknowledge that it is hard to make a
case
for coldfusion". "Most people" of course being Andy Main.

No, most people including Ben Forta and hundreds of others who know it is
getting harder. Its a bit silly to say that theres really only me feels that
way.

>>Frankly, I find it

rather insulting to all the very experienced CF developers on here, many of
which also have coded in these other languages, to say that the only reason we
say CF is faster to develop in is because we have poor coding practices.

Find it insulting if you like - bot cf and php suffer enormously from this.
It's widely acknowledged and most people know not to take it personally and get
all upset. Frankly, I find it insulting when people would rather ignore a
problem and pretend like it didn't happen.

>>Newcomers to this forum wonder why so many of us are hostile to Andy?

I wouldn't call a handfull of people "so many" - there way more in here
understand, agree and do not feel that way. The main question "so many" have is
why are the people with a vested interest in cf behaving so rudely all the
time? Gee, I wonder?

>> Well,

putting aside the fact that he never contributes anything useful other than
these constant "CF is dead" posts
Mary Jo - you are being very silly. (as you were in another post in which i
was helping a perffectly innocent poster out) I will find you plenty of
postings here - people saying "thanks" and "very useful" in response to my
posts. Can you please find me one where I say cf is dead, can you do that for
the good people please? I doubt it. On the other hand I can find numerous posts
where I very clearly say to effect "cf is far from dead" or "cf has its place"
or just plain "cf is great yada yada yada". If you want, we can play a game
called "lets see if Mary Jo is telling the truth". I re-post what I have said
and you re-post what I have said, and we see if it matches up with you have
just claimed. Tip - don't play a game that you know you can't possibly win.

As for the rest of your post, all i can say is that I can see some of your
points and others are a little "stretched". But the main reason i will not
defer from responding point by point is because you have shown yourself to be a
little dishonest and rude.

[MaryJo]

Forget it Andy, you obviously get some kind of kick out of dragging people into
theses absurd discussions, and obviously have loads of time to spend posting
such dreck on here, but I personally have better things to do. I posted my
opinions of all your statements of "fact" and refuse to get into a debate with
you on it, and certainly am not going to play your childish "game".
Particularly when you continue to make statements about what is "widely
acknowledged" with nothing to back it up. I mean come on, saying that Ben Forta
can not make a case for ColdFusion shows how truly absurd you are willing to
be. I don't know where you saw some statement he made about the use of
ColdFusion in the enterprise, but he is perfectly capable, and still does on a
regular basis, make an excellent case for using ColdFusion. Using someone
else's statements out of context shows how little respect you have for the
ColdFusion community.

Feel free to continue debating this on your own, I've had my say. Maybe one of
your other aliases will have some more light to shed on the matter.

[Brian Simmons]

All very good points MaryJo, and anyone with 2 firing brain cells will get
what Andy Grant (and gumshoe/ronnie/rambo/andley/etc...) is all about.
BUT, if I might throw a small piece of advice your way (something Matt,
PaulH, I, and others have learned):
Don't wrestle with a pig, because:
A) You'll both end up dirty.
B) The pig will enjoy it.

:)

"MaryJo" <maryjo@cfwebstore.com> wrote in message
news:df3qc5$j0$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Hhm, "most people are beginning to acknowledge that it is hard to make a
> case
> for coldfusion". "Most people" of course being Andy Main. Frankly, I find
> it
> rather insulting to all the very experienced CF developers on here, many
> of
> which also have coded in these other languages, to say that the only
> reason we
> say CF is faster to develop in is because we have poor coding practices.
> Newcomers to this forum wonder why so many of us are hostile to Andy?
> Well,
> putting aside the fact that he never contributes anything useful other
> than
> these constant "CF is dead" posts...even going so far as to hijack other
> threads that have nothing to do with it, he constantly loves to throw out
> totally false statements as if they are fact, and contridicting himself
> before
> even finishing a paragraph. Such as stating that because so many cf users
> need
> to use java (not true) that they might as well just skip using CF and use
> java
> instead. And immediately jumping from that conclusion to saying that
> having to
> use any java at all defeats the point of using cf. How does that even make
> sense?? Let's say you needed to use a single java function in your CF app
> (seldom really needed to begin with). Say maybe 1% of it. Would you give
> up all
> the benefits of a RAD platform just because of that 1%? Thus increasing
> your
> total coding time and maintenance time on top of that many many times
> over?
> Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! Anyone with an ounce
> of
> intelligence would not have an issue with this. In fact, most developers
> that
> work in CF consider it a nice way to get your feet wet with Java without
> having
> to fully jump in head first.
>
> Then we have statements about CF developers all jumping to other
> languages,
> with a bunch of reasons that there is no evidence whatsoever to back up.
> This
> in spite of the fact that a lot of us have been seeing increased interest
> in
> CF...in my case, there has been a big surge in sales from outside the
> US...enough that there will soon be a multi-language version of my
> software as
> well because the demand for it has been so high. I don't doubt that there
> are
> some developers that have switched to other languages...there always have
> been.
> But this mass exodus that Andy is implying...sorry, I don't buy it.
> Macromedia
> has said that the latest release was one of their most successful...and I
> see
> no reason to doubt them just because Andy thinks CF is dying.
>
> And I love the statement that the reason you cannot develop faster in CF
> is
> because there aren't as many precoded apps written in it. Well, we've seen
> in
> other threads that Andy doesn't even know about what precoded apps there
> *are*
> for CF (in spite of his claims to be a CF expert). Frankly, it doesn't
> really
> matter if there are thousands versus hundreds of options...as long as
> there
> *are* some really good options to choose from, and that is certainly the
> case
> for CF as well as other languages. And many of those precoded apps he goes
> on
> about are poorly documented and hard to figure out, as is often typical
> for
> open source, free apps. Oops, so much for all that time you think you
> saved.
> Sure, there are some decent ones out there. But you often have to wade
> through
> a lot of junk to find them. And none of that of course means anything in
> regards to a comparison of coding times between languages. Even if you
> want to
> say only 25% of the time is spent on coding, for a large application, a
> time
> savings of 10% with CF on that 25% could still mean thousands of dollars
> saved.
> And that's not even counting the time saved in maintenance, which is often
> even
> more sizeable. If you want to compare use of precoded apps, I would say CF
> has
> an even greater advantage here because its readability is far better than
> its
> competitors (assuming decent coding to begin with), making it much easier
> to
> learn and modify someone else's code.
>
> As for the original poster's question...yes, you will definitely find that
> ColdFusion is very easy to tie into Macromedia products like Flash.
> They've
> improved integration with ASP and PHP a lot. But CF being a Macromedia
> product,
> it will probably always have tighter integration than the others. It goes
> both
> ways too. The latest version of CF includes a lot of nice Flash
> integration
> such as the new cfform implementations. These may really help you quickly
> build
> some great Flash applications. And yes, CF runs on a lot of different
> platforms. In fact, with New Atlanta's Blue Dragon product, you can even
> run
> your CFML application on .NET. This product has improved greatly over
> earlier
> versions and is a quite viable (and cheaper) alternative to ColdFusion. We
> were
> able to get CFWebstore to run on it with a fairly minimal amount of
> recoding.
>

[Andley Jandley]

>> I mean come on, saying that Ben Forta
can not make a case for ColdFusion

More gibberish - where did i say that Ben Forta could not make a case for
coldfusion? In fact, where did i say a case could not be made for coldfusion? I
said that many people have pointed out that it is getting harder to make a case
for coldfusion - and, sure enough, many people have. Ben Forta has also passed
comment to the effect that a lot of people don't even put it on their list of
considerations. There have been articles written, advice given, and all sorts
of reference to (by Ben Forta and others) on how to make such a case. I am yet
to hear anybody dispute wether or not people are finding it harder to make a
case for (except you guys) - of course it is getting harder to make a case for
cf, think about it, MS giants, J2EE standardisation, open source php movement,
and other such forces, only a fool would think otherwise. Does my acknowledging
this deerve your rudeness and inappropriate behaviour - not at all.

Not only did you deliberately manipulate my words, which incidentally is a
step up from the ouright lies a little earlier, but you did so right after
complaining about such things yourself. Again, tell me where I supposedly said
Ben Forta cannot make a case for coldfusion - that is a plainly ludicrous
statement and I never said it , as you well know Mary Jo. (and as other posters
can also see quite clearly)

>>and refuse to get into a debate with

you on it, and certainly am not going to play your childish "game".

The childish game was about you backing up the silly lies you told. And of
course you don't want to play it - you know you would lose. You claimed I said
coldfusion was dead. You likley double checked my posts and saw many claims to
the contrary and not one such claim in accordance with your claims. I wouldn't
want to play if I were you either. Mary Jo, you are better off not posting at
all as everybody can plainly see the tactics you are employing are nothing more
than easily proved lies and blatant manipulation of other peoples words.

>>Using someone

else's statements out of context shows how little respect you have for the
ColdFusion community.

So, in effect, you are saying that you yourself have little respect for the
coldfusion community. And you most definitely are not shying away from
insulting its intelligence either.

>>Feel free to continue debating this on your own, I've had my say.

All you acheived was to show desperation and a touch of paranoia. i did you no
injustice, I spoke no untruths, and i set out to offer a perfectly valid
opinion. Yet you told lies and you manipulated words - I would suggest you
don't post again as I fear the hole you dig yourself will get deeper.

Folks, Mary Jo and Brian Simmons sell coldfusion software. The attitude is
nothing more than a reaction anybody would have gotten had they had the nerve
to suggest that coldfusion had some competition out there. Don't get sucked
into the FUD and the "he said, she said" crap. You will almost always find
these totally unwarranted responses are the work of those very VERY closely
aligned with cf or MM. Your average joe out there in the trenches sees cf as a
tool for solving problems ( a damn good one) and they do not act this way when
people raise basic issues -they simply talk openly and honestly an dgeneral do
not let their passion lead them to story telling and outright insults.

Mary Jo, Brain copped a bit of flacked for rudeness recently - it did not go
unnoticed by quite a few posters. I suggest you dont get in that same boat with
him.

[Andley Jandley]

>> Don't wrestle with a pig, because:
A) You'll both end up dirty.
B) The pig will enjoy it.

Whatever it takes to keep the sillines from the coldfusion community doorstep
is fine with me. I disagree that I am the pig in this analogy, but what is
important is the way your mind is working - if you don't like what soembody is
saying you don't go insulting, arguing and generally carrying on like a brat in
front of eveybody.

I would rather be called a pig (and yet again leave the blame for hostility at
your doorstep) if the logic behind it means, essentially, "don't respond if
you can't be civil".

[MaryJo]

Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
Don't wrestle with a pig, because:
A) You'll both end up dirty.
B) The pig will enjoy it.


LOL, good analogy. Don't worry, I know better than to get into a flamefest
with him, particularly when he insists on dragging it lower and lower and
making it more insulting and personal each time. Very typical troll behavior
that obviously often pays off well for him, but it will go ignored from me.
Just this statement alone: "if you don't like what soembody is saying you don't
go insulting, arguing and generally carrying on like a brat in front of
eveybody." Was there ever a better example of the pot calling the kettle
black?! ;-)

[Brian Simmons]

Seriously, gumshoe....errr...ronnie....errr....rambo....errrr .....Andy
Grant, please consider a basic spelling/grammar/typing class.

sillines, Brain, dont, soembody, etc... and countless others in previous
posts (by both you and your aliases).

"Andley Jandley" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:df4da8$eh$1@forums.macromedia.com...

>>> Don't wrestle with a pig, because:

> A) You'll both end up dirty.
> B) The pig will enjoy it.
>
> Whatever it takes to keep the sillines from the coldfusion community
> doorstep
> is fine with me. I disagree that I am the pig in this analogy, but what is
> important is the way your mind is working - if you don't like what
> soembody is
> saying you don't go insulting, arguing and generally carrying on like a
> brat in
> front of eveybody.
>
> I would rather be called a pig (and yet again leave the blame for
> hostility at
> your doorstep) if the logic behind it means, essentially, "don't respond
> if
> you can't be civil".
>
>
>

[Brian Simmons]

"Andley Jandley" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:df4csv$t5i$1@forums.macromedia.com...

> Folks, Mary Jo and Brian Simmons sell coldfusion software.

Actually, Andy, no need to tell the forum readers this because we've never
hidden our identities. I proudly sell CFMX Exam Buster at
[url]http://centrasoft.com[/url] and have never had to post on these forums under an
aliases (unlike you). And before you claim you never have, readers simply
look in google groups for "gumshoe" in the MM forums. You'll see that this
was one of Andy Grant's aliases before he was busted and then dumped the
gumshoe alias.

[url]http://groups.google.com/group/macromedia.coldfusion.cfml_general_discussion/browse_frm/thread/bccdb16212435612/20ac046903678334?tvc=1&q=gumshoe+books+group:*macr omedia*&hl=en#20ac046903678334[/url]
(watch the possible URL wrap)
Response #58 details all about Andy's aliases and penchant for fraud.

> Mary Jo, Brain copped a bit of flacked for rudeness recently - it did not
> go
> unnoticed by quite a few posters.

Well, I can't argue with that. Every single one of Andy's aliases chimed in
to let me know how rude I was and how correct Andy was.

Let me sum it up:
Andy's invested quite a bit of time into ColdFusion and Macromedia. I know
how difficult it is to become a certified MM instructor, so that's no small
accomplishment. The CF market in Australia has dried up (according to
Andy), and he hardly has any more training gigs for ColdFusion. He's bitter
and pissed about his investment in MM/CF and now wants to bad-mouth it every
chance he gets.
So, as the grown-ups in this forums, I say we just let our little child,
Andy Grant, carry on like a six-year old and let him throw his temper
tantrum about CF any time he wants to. Maybe we can all claim him as a
dependent on our taxes?

[jiggar]

Bastiboy,

I personally have been using ColdFusion on a daily basis for under a year. I
can tell you that I have learned a lot and that it is very powerful and very
WORTH it. At my job, I also have the opportunity to use ASP (with plans for
future migration to .NET). I find many times I will need to translate CF code
into ASP or vice-versa with very little (if any) differences. In other words,
so far in my experience, anything that ASP can do, so can CF.

Also, as people posted earlier, CF is used extensively in the government
sector. A relative of mine works at an Air Force base and is very familiar with
the existence of CF. He has always told me that government will use the best,
most efficient software they can get their hands on. So, after hearing this, I
am more than sure that CF is very worth ANY cent spent on it.

jiggar

[Andley Jandley]

Not quite seeing why this link you provide shows anything? I am Andy Grant,
plain and simple. I would have had maybe 2 aliases on MM foums overthe last 7
years - neither of which I used to pretend to be someone else or answer my own
posts (something I have a feeling Brian has doneon more than one occasion) What
does all this 'you had this alias' "he said, she said" business mean? Frankly,
I find it all very childish and annoying.

>>Andy's invested quite a bit of time into ColdFusion and Macromedia. I know

how difficult it is to become a certified MM instructor, so that's no small
accomplishment. The CF market in Australia has dried up (according to
Andy), and he hardly has any more training gigs for ColdFusion. He's bitter
and pissed about his investment in MM/CF and now wants to bad-mouth it every
chance he gets.

Sure, makes sense doesn't it Brian. The work has dried up so now I am bitter
and angry. How dare they take my coldfusion away. I'll make them pay!! (insert
evil laugh here)

Watching to many movies Brian. I think it is you that has the emotional
attachment to coldfusion - after all, the rudeness and hostility and conspriacy
theories are all coming from you, not me. It makes no difference to me if I
earn money from .net, php, or cf - its all money yeah?

>>So, as the grown-ups in this forums, I say we just let our little child,

Andy Grant, carry on like a six-year old and let him throw his temper
tantrum about CF any time he wants to.

Someone, anyone, show me this "temper tantrum"! $100 to the person that points
out where I have had such a tantrum. ( I think I hsould recoup at leat $50
expenses from Brian though, giventhat he told such the lie in in the first
place - fair enough Brian?) Please, please, please, show me the post in which I
have such a tantrum?

The amount of outright lies and misinformation being spread here relies only
on you hoping that most posters will not check to see if you are, well, full of
it or not - anybody who looks will find your claims to be entirely false and
based on absolutely nothing more than your own fantastic imagination.

[Andley Jandley]

>> LOL, good analogy. Don't worry, I know better than to get into a flamefest
with him

And so you should - you got busted telling lies. If you entered further debate
you would be forced to show evidence of your claims. Something you would do
well to steer clear of given that it does not exist.

As for my being personal and talking it "lower and lower " - more gibberish.
You told blatant lies about me for no reason other than you disagreed with my
opinion - thats personal and thats pretty damned low.