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Java on mac - Mac Programming

As an end-user can someone explain why JAVA on the Mac is such a disaster? JAVA applets etc seem so flakey and unpredictable. I know this isn't a programming question, but I really am frustrated... I mean curious. It seems worse on OS X than 9 too.......

  1. #1

    Default Java on mac

    As an end-user can someone explain why JAVA on the Mac is such a disaster?
    JAVA applets etc seem so flakey and unpredictable. I know this isn't a
    programming question, but I really am frustrated... I mean curious.
    It seems worse on OS X than 9 too....


    Bruce Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Java on mac

    In article <BC10F777.7B1%rr.com>,
    Bruce Coughlin <rr.com> wrote:
     

    Can you provide examples of things that qualify as disastrous? I've
    found that Java on the Mac pre-X suffered mostly from being slow and
    outdated but rarely broken. In OS X, it's no longer slow or drastically
    behind the curve. YMMV, of course, but I'd like to hear what kinds of
    things you are having trouble with.

    G
    Gregory Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Java on mac

    I guess I don't understand why things are so drastically different from
    browser to browser for one thing. Also, sometimes scroll bars don't scroll,
    the bar moves but the content doesn't scroll (site specific), sometimes text
    written into text boxes is written moved down a bit so the bottom part is
    cut off (though that's browser-specific). Places with lots of streaming ads
    seem to have focus problems (which applet window am I in now?). Things like
    that.

    Mostly I have trouble with sites totally dependent on Java to run (chat
    rooms, etc). The same sites just seem more stable and predictable on a PC
    for some reason, but that might partially be because there's really only one
    browser on the PC.

    On 12/25/03 8:51 PM, in article
    attbi.com, "Gregory Weston"
    <com> wrote:
     

    Bruce Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Java on mac

    In article <BC1111A7.7BC%rr.com>,
    Bruce Coughlin <rr.com> wrote:
     

    Internet Explorer on the Mac uses JDK 1.3.1. Safari uses 1.4.1. The
    newer version of Java works much better.
     

    Ads are rarely Java. Could you be confusing Java and Javascript?
    Despite the similarities in their names, those are two completely
    different programming languages.
     

    They should work reasonably well with Safari on Panther today, and
    they're probably getting better with each new Safari, Java, and Mac OS X
    release. If they don't work well, you should let Apple know.

    -Eric

    --
    Eric Albert edu
    http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~ejalbert/
    Eric Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Java on mac

    On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 03:07:42 GMT, Bruce Coughlin
    <rr.com> wrote: 

    Well that's a strange statement since there are at least 4
    browsers in popular use on the PC: IE, Mozilla/NS, Opera and AOL.
    And that's counting Mozilla and all its variants as one...

    However let's assume you mean IE as the most popular browser.

    One big difference between IE on PC and Mac is that the Mac
    version uses Mozilla as its engine whereas the PC vesion uses
    Microsofts own engine (based originally on Mosaic). Sadly many
    sites tune their behaviour to suit the PC IE's quirks which means
    they don't work a well on any other browser, including Mac IE.

    On a Mac you should find that IE, Mozilla and Netscape are all
    fairly consistent since they share the same engine. Safari uses
    the Konquerer engine which, I think, is not Mozilla based so may
    give different results.

    As to Java specifics, the behaviour depends on the JVM. The JVM
    depends on the platform, and the vendor. So you get Microsoft and
    Sun versions for the PC (at different version levels) and again
    sites tend to be tuned for the MS one - but that will change as
    MS move to requiring the Sun version.

    On the Mac you get the Sun JVM for PowerPC at different versions.
    Although basically a port of the PC version there are
    differences, Java's much vaunted "write once, run anyewhere" is a
    myth unfortunately... Java developers now describe it as "write
    once, debug everywhere"

    So to summarise, behaviour depends on the JVM and there are
    different JVMs on each platform. To compound the problem the
    developers currently tend to tune their code for the Microsoft
    one on the PC.

    Alan G.

    Author of the Learn to Program website
    http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld
    Alan Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Java on mac

    In article <blueyonder.co.uk>,
    com (Alan Gauld) wrote:

     

    I have never heard the assertion that Internet Explorer on the Macintosh
    uses Gecko. Are you sure that this is correct?
    ophion Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Java on mac

    On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, ophion wrote:
     
    >
    > I have never heard the assertion that Internet Explorer on the Macintosh
    > uses Gecko. Are you sure that this is correct?
    >[/ref]
    It's wrong. Mac IE uses a rendering engine called Tasman
    (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/01-05macie5.asp)
    Fred

    Frederick Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Java on mac

    Bruce Coughlin wrote: 

    My best guess is that you are experiencing problems with poorly (read:
    platform dependent) written websites, not JAVA on the Mac. I use Java on
    the Mac quite often (not to mix with JavaScript and co.) and see no real
    problems with it. Of course it is on Os X - the JVM is quite up to date
    and brings no problems that would not be present on any other platform,
    including mswindows. Therefore I find the statement "Java on the Mac (OS
    X) is a disaster" somehow unjustified unless you call it a disaster on
    every platform as well.
    silverdr Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Java on mac

    Alan Gauld <com> wrote:
     

    Not so (this is in the 'when hell freezes over' category). IE for Mac
    uses a Microsoft html rendering engine and JavaScript implementation.
     

    yes, many web sites still use older Java versions (1.x) to accomodate
    users with older OS versions. The MS versions of those VM's have some
    non-standard features. If a web-site relies on those features, it won't
    work on the Mac. (Or on a PC with only the 'official' Sun VM installed).

    patrick
    Patrick Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Java on mac

    On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 17:18:09 +0000, Frederick Cheung
    <DUH.ucam.org> wrote: 
    > >
    > > I have never heard the assertion that Internet Explorer on the Macintosh
    > > uses Gecko. Are you sure that this is correct?
    > >[/ref]
    > It's wrong. Mac IE uses a rendering engine called Tasman
    > (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/01-05macie5.asp)[/ref]

    Really? I'm surprised. My assertion was based on the fact that
    the IE 5.2 startup screen says "powered by Mozilla..."

    Alan G.
    Author of the Learn to Program website
    http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld
    Alan Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Java on mac

    On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Alan Gauld wrote:
     
    > > It's wrong. Mac IE uses a rendering engine called Tasman
    > > (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/01-05macie5.asp)[/ref]
    >
    > Really? I'm surprised. My assertion was based on the fact that
    > the IE 5.2 startup screen says "powered by Mozilla..."
    >[/ref]
    Then you have some weird version of IE, as mine does not show this (and it
    isn't mentionned anywhere in the credits)

    Fred

    Frederick Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: Java on mac

    On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:25:11 +0000, Frederick Cheung
    <DUH.ucam.org> wrote: 
    > >
    > > Really? I'm surprised. My assertion was based on the fact that
    > > the IE 5.2 startup screen says "powered by Mozilla..."
    > >[/ref]
    > Then you have some weird version of IE, as mine does not show this (and it
    > isn't mentionned anywhere in the credits)[/ref]

    Yep, I just checked again because I only saw this a couple of
    days ago and was surprised. Now I can't find it anywhere...

    Hmm, time of the year? Too much eggnog? Dunno.
    Sorry for the misinformation! If I do see it again
    I'll post where... or a recipe for my eggnog!

    :-)

    Enjoy the holidays folks,

    Alan g.
    Author of the Learn to Program website
    http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld
    Alan Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: Java on mac

    In article
    <srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk>
    ,
    Frederick Cheung <DUH.ucam.org> wrote:
     
    > >
    > > Really? I'm surprised. My assertion was based on the fact that
    > > the IE 5.2 startup screen says "powered by Mozilla..."
    > >[/ref]
    > Then you have some weird version of IE, as mine does not show this (and it
    > isn't mentionned anywhere in the credits)
    >
    > Fred
    >[/ref]

    Well I got curious so I looked.

    The splash screen in my pristine 5.2.3 release says nothing about any
    underlying technology.

    The About box mentions that the engine is based on Mosaic.

    The "Support..." button in the about box includes the line
    User Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.23; Mac_PowerPC)

    which may be where Alan saw Mozilla.
    Gregory Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: Java on mac

    On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 12:28:37 GMT, Gregory Weston
    <com> wrote:
     
    >
    > Well I got curious so I looked.
    >
    > The splash screen in my pristine 5.2.3 release says nothing about any
    > underlying technology.
    >
    > The About box mentions that the engine is based on Mosaic.
    >
    > The "Support..." button in the about box includes the line
    > User Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.23; Mac_PowerPC)
    >
    > which may be where Alan saw Mozilla.[/ref]

    That's it! Thank goodness, I thought I was going mad...
    Now, what exactly does that mean??? Is it based on Mosaic,
    Mozilla, or both? Or something else...

    Alan G.
    Author of the Learn to Program website
    http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld
    Alan Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: Java on mac

    com (Alan Gauld) writes:
     
    > >
    > > Well I got curious so I looked.
    > >
    > > The splash screen in my pristine 5.2.3 release says nothing about any
    > > underlying technology.
    > >
    > > The About box mentions that the engine is based on Mosaic.
    > >
    > > The "Support..." button in the about box includes the line
    > > User Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.23; Mac_PowerPC)
    > >
    > > which may be where Alan saw Mozilla.[/ref]
    >
    > That's it! Thank goodness, I thought I was going mad...
    > Now, what exactly does that mean??? Is it based on Mosaic,
    > Mozilla, or both? Or something else...[/ref]

    It doesn't mean anything. The User-Agent header just advertises to
    the server what browser you are using. It can be set to anything.
    Sometimes web pages will pay attention to that header and generate
    different HTML based on the user agent. Some browsers will let you
    change the User-Agent header to deal with nasty sites that don't like
    you to use your favorite browser.

    I was under the impression that IE was based on Mosaic. Based in a
    loose sense that is. I don't think IE used Mosaic code, just
    technology and ideas, whatever that means.

    http://software.ericsink.com/Browser_Wars.html

    --
    One Emacs to rule them all. One Emacs to find them,
    One Emacs to take commands and to the keystrokes bind them,

    All other programming languages wish they were Lisp.
    David Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: Java on mac

    In article <blueyonder.co.uk>,
    com (Alan Gauld) wrote:
     

    Close, but not quite. Sun only produced one version of its JVM for the
    Mac -- a rather atrocious JDK 1.0.2 port. Instead, you get Apple's JVM
    (which of course is for the PowerPC). Apple is a Java licensee, so they
    can use Sun's code, but it's definitely Apple's JVM rather than Sun's.

    -Eric

    --
    Eric Albert edu
    http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~ejalbert/
    Eric Guest

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