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Linux Fan anger - SCO

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  1. Moderated Post

    Default Linux Fan anger

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    tony@aplawrence.com Guest
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger

    On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:25:36 +0000 (UTC), com
    <com> wrote:
     

    My goodness Tony, isn't 90+% of usenet about people publishing their
    unqualified opinions?
     

    I agree that our opinions won't decide any court cases. But it is often
    interesting to discuss people's opinions, even if those opinions don't
    count. Let's say we talk about the next election: one vote amongst
    millions won't make any practical difference, but it may still be
    interesting to discuss opinions and exchange ideas.
     

    Like how to deny revenue to SCO so that it becomes more difficult for
    SCO to continue the attack?

    Joe Guest

  3. #3

    Default RE: Linux Fan anger

    Joe Dunning wrote: 

    This is about the worst example I have ever seen!!! Come on Joe,
    you got to be smarter than you let on. "One vote amongst millions
    won't make any practical difference" - in an election? Holy !
    That is the whole freaking point. One vote amongst millions IS the
    only thing in elections that matters!!! Because when you put all
    those one votes together someone wins! You know, Democracy!

    On the other hand, YOUR opinion on whether the GPL is valid or not
    makes absolutely NO difference. YOU don't have a vote. YOU don't
    have any "say-so" what so ever. The judge will decide.

    You have it backwards.

    In the courts - only one vote counts! The judge's vote!

    In an election - every vote counts... and every vote matters.

    Bill
    Bill Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger

    On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:36:23 GMT, Bill Andersen <com>
    wrote:

    [...]
     

    Not if you live in the US.

    --
    FyRE < "War: The way Americans learn geography" >
    FyRE Guest

  5. #5

    Default RE: Linux Fan anger

    Bill Andersen wrote: [/ref]

    FyRE wrote: 

    OK, in Florida, every vote may not GET counted, but every vote DOES matter
    :)

    Bill Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger

    Joe Dunning <invalid> wrote: 
     [/ref]
     

    Why is it that you seem to be incapable of distinguishing opinions
    about what you like or want (I like Linux. I want the GPL to
    be valid) and opinions about legality (cy pres doctrine doesn't
    apply!).
     [/ref]
     

    Truly? You are really interested in hearing legal strategy discussed
    by people who have no idea what they are talking about? I'm not.
    I would be interested in listening to two lawyers discuss the pros and
    cons of this.

    Why on earth would you want to listen to b.s. ?

     [/ref]
     

    If that's what you want to do, go ahead. Few of us see that as
    doing anything but punishing innocent consumers, which is not
    something I want to do.

    --
    com Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
    Get paid for writing about tech: http://aplawrence.com/publish.html
    tony@aplawrence.com Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger

    On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:36:23 GMT, Bill Andersen <com> wrote: 
    >
    >This is about the worst example I have ever seen!!! Come on Joe,
    >you got to be smarter than you let on. "One vote amongst millions
    >won't make any practical difference" - in an election? Holy !
    >That is the whole freaking point. One vote amongst millions IS the
    >only thing in elections that matters!!! Because when you put all
    >those one votes together someone wins! You know, Democracy!
    >
    >On the other hand, YOUR opinion on whether the GPL is valid or not
    >makes absolutely NO difference. YOU don't have a vote. YOU don't
    >have any "say-so" what so ever. The judge will decide.[/ref]

    I expected you to be able to read and understand what I said: ONE
    vote makes no PRACTICAL difference. Let's face it, more American
    citizens choose not to vote. If they are not registered to vote, are
    they not allowed to have an opinion? Are any non-citizens in the US
    allowed to express opinions on US politics?

    But back to my point: one vote makes no difference: it's the sum of
    millions of votes that count. It's the collective voice that counts, not
    the individual. That's democracy.

    By your argument, I could say that if I voted for the losing candidate,
    I am not entitled to an opinion, since I was outvoted and my opinion did
    not count.

    So, OK, elections are not the best example to show what I was
    discussing. C- grade for me! It does not change the issue, though.

    Everyone understands that only the views of the judges matter. That's
    not the issue. The issue is that everyone else is also entitled to
    express an opinion, qualified or not, relevent or not. Isn't that what
    the first amendment is about (I don't recall that it limited freedom of
    speech to only qualified people).

    Discussing whether my opinion matters is merely a strawman: I've never
    claimed that my or anyone else's opinions (except the judge(s)) will
    sway the final outcome.

    Incidentally, can you see a conflict here? Tony has repeatedly stated
    that only lawyers can have opinions, yet the opinions of the lawyers
    don't count: it's only the opinions of the judges that count. So are
    lawyers allowed to have opinions on legal questions?

    Joe Guest

  8. Moderated Post

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger

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    tony@aplawrence.com Guest
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  9. Moderated Post

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger

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    Joe Guest
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  10. #10

    Default RE: Linux Fan anger

    Joe Dunning wrote: 

    Yes, if an American is not registered to vote, they have a right to
    their opinion - the same for non-citizens. However, if they
    want to effect the OUTCOME of the election, they must register and vote.
    Just having an opinion doesn't change anything.

    I live in a city that had a fairly popular mayor. At election time,
    everyone "just knew" the current mayor would win the election because
    the only person running against her was an uneducated farmer with no
    political experience what so ever! In their opinion, she would win.
    However, voter turn-out was so low that the farmer won! Only a handful
    of people voted for him. But, the people who had the opinion she would
    win didn't bother to "get out and vote" - she lost because her supporters
    thought that they where only one vote... and what is just one vote?
     

    I think that is what I said.
     

    That's not my argument at all. I don't know how you could come to that
    conclusion.
     

    I agree. Bad example.
     

    And I don't recall it requiring anyone to express their opinion if they
    choose not to!
     

    I think you would be hard pressed (at least in any higher court) to find
    a judge that didn't have a law degree. So, judges ARE lawyers. However,
    other lawyers opinions can sway the outcome to some extent. The lawyers
    representing each side will state "their" interpretation of the law to the
    court (Judge). The judge just gets to decide which one he/she thinks is
    right.
    The lawyers can present the facts slanted towards their opinion in hopes
    he will see it as they do.

    In the end, the judge - a lawyer - has the final opinion.

    Bill Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger

    On Thu, Oct 30, 2003, Bill Andersen wrote:
    .... 

    Judges who often hold lifetime appointments and aren't
    accountable to anybody.
     

    Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
    Those who count the vote decide everything. (Joseph Stalin)

    Bill
    --
    INTERNET: COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
    UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
    FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
    URL: http://www.celestial.com/

    ``Things in our country run in spite of government. Not by aid of it!''
    Will Rogers
    Bill Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger

    In article <com>,
    FyRE <demon.ku.oc.x> wrote: 
     [/ref]
     

    You evidentally missed the stories about the last presidential
    election where after 2 weeks of deciding what votes were good, what
    weren't, and who know what else, that the final count of
    whether it was Bush or Gore came down to only 600 votes.



    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv wjv . com
    Bill Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger

    In article <Odgob.63810$Fm2.46553attbi_s04>,
    Joe Dunning <com> wrote:
     

    I don't recall that Tony said quite that. And the opinion of a
    lawyer doesn't count - the only thing that matters is to argue
    for the side of thier client. Even if they if in their opinion
    their client is guilty [talking criminal becasue guilty/innocent
    is easier to understand] they must argue to get the jury [or judge
    if it a non-jury proceeding] to aquit their client of charges.

    Lawyers opinions therefore probably count less than any others.



    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv wjv . com
    Bill Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger

    Joe Dunning wrote: 

    Actually here in Denmark, it would be normal procedure to take exactly
    that stance - if you didn't vote - your right to an opinion has already
    been taken from ya'... Then again we don't have to register - and it
    would be a sad occasion if less than 80% of the voting population didn't
    meet up at the polls.

    --
    Med Venlig Hilsen / Regards

    Kim Petersen - Kyborg A/S (Udvikling)
    IT - Innovationshuset
    Havneparken 2
    7100 Vejle
    Tlf. +4576408183 || Fax. +4576408188

    Kim Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger

    Joe Dunning <invalid> wrote:
     

    Joe, you are misrepresenting what I said. You drag things out of context
    and construct strawmen from your gleanings.
     

    I never said such an opinion was worthless.

    I am simply not interested in hearing the opinions of unqualified people
    in this area. What does it gain me to listen to your blabberings
    about the legailty of the GPL? You aren't a lawyer. Likewise,
    in spite of your nagging insistence that I MUST have an opinion
    wrt the legality, I am at a complete loss: umm, I think it
    is legal because.. I HAVE NO FRICKING IDEA!

    Do you get it yet? I HAVE NO IDEA. I have very little knowledge
    of law, and can't think of a single thing I could offer of value
    in this regard. I HAVE NO OPINION.

    My bet is that you have no real opinion either. I have asked
    you several times to express it if you do, and to give some
    background as to why I should listen to it. I should amend my
    insistence that I would only be interested in the opinions of
    a lawyer: if you told me that you had, as a hobby, been interested
    in copyright law etc. for some time and actually did know a bit
    about it, I'd listen to your opinion, though I'd surely salt
    it liberally. But if you, like me, know nothing about copyright
    and license law, why on earth should I wast my time thinking
    about anything you said in that vein?

    Do you get it Joe? I don't say you have no right to an opinion,
    simply that I would have no reason to pay any attention to
    it.
     [/ref]
     

    I AM critical - just not in the manner that you want me to be. I think
    they have made a very stupid mistake that could hurt a lot of people,
    including me. But that does NOT mean that they have no right to
    take this action. It also doesn't mean that our mutual customers
    need to be punished.

    You know, you seem to be one of those people who can only see
    fairness if it benefits you. If it hurts you, it must be wrong.
    That's not how the world works: sometimes we get the ty end
    of the stick and as crappy as that is, we have to live with it.

    SCO has a right to pursue what they see as a wrong by IBM. I
    see that as dumb, harmful, and as something that will come back to
    bite them. They obviously have a different opinion.


    --
    com Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
    Get paid for writing about tech: http://aplawrence.com/publish.html
    tony@aplawrence.com Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger


    <com> wrote in message news:bnqov0$ur6$std.com... 

    I have paced about this whole...mess. At one point I concluded the only way
    SCO will survive or hold on to some intellectual and functional value would
    be to go open source, or sort-of open source, in such a way that open source
    does not me free software. Just think of IT pros SCO could hire for a
    fraction of the cost of all those lawers.


    Bob Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: Linux Fan anger

    On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:25:36 +0000, ton wrote:
     

    Yeah, "very, very angry" is a very accurate description of my and most
    Linux people's feelings towards SCO. The main cause is that it's obvious
    SCO's intent isn't to nobly protect their rights, but to usurp Linux.
    Another thing contributing to this frustration is that large groups of
    very angry people have no power.

    Think about it: it doesn't matter how many people, or even how many
    industries, want to see SCO summarily obliterated - it won't have any
    effect whatsoever. Certainly the SCO management could care less, as
    they've shown time and time again. The judges aren't supposed to care.
    The stock market keeps giving them free money.

    There ought to be a law. Or an agency. An Office of Common Sense, who,
    when they received enough complaints about one group, would investigate
    and remedy the situation quickly and fairly.

    Actually, this is exactly what the legal system is supposed to be, but
    isn't. For one, both SCO cases won't reach court for years, or be
    resolved for years more - meanwhile, SCO will continue to FUD Linux, the
    GPL, and open source, and the media will continue to amplify them. Also,
    consider that nobody here has the knowledge to meaningfully discuss the
    issues, because the law is so complex. And even if we did, as you repeat
    often, we don't get to decide, one judge does. The current system is
    woefully inadequate.

    Sorry, rant over. BTW, Tony, sorry that I misinterpreted your withholding
    of opinion as doubt about the validity of the GPL. It's interesting how
    careful people are not to take an anti-GPL position, both in court and on
    the net. My opinion is that the GPL could use a few revisions, though
    it's perfectly capable of standing up in court as is.

    --
    Tom Felker, <com>
    <http://vlevel.sourceforge.net> - Stop fiddling with the volume knob.

    If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive
    property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea.

    Tom Guest

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