Loss of color saturation/density when saving as JPEG

[Peter Gaunt]

In article <1dea175a.-1@WebX.la2eafNXanI>, kirk winslow
<kwinslow@irvinepres.org> wrote:

> The problem is that I am losing a good 30% of the color saturation/density
> (i.e., the colors appear washed out, lighter) when I save some of my images
> as a jpeg. (It only happens some of the time, usually with images in which I
> have increased the color saturation.)

[snip]

>
> I'm then trying to "save for web" to post them on my website. When the "Save
> for Web" dialog box comes up, both the preview AND THE ORIGINAL images are
> greatly reduced in their color density. (Note: Ihave the same problem if I
> just "Save As" and choose a jpeg, gif, or png file type.)

This is probably because you're saving without a color profile. Even if
you save with one (increasing the file size) it will look OK in PE but
probably not in your browser because that probably does not support
color profiles and so ignores them (though there's an option in IE5-Mac
to turn support on).

There's an answer to this, at least with OS X, probably OS 9 too. There
are a set of Applescript scripts in /Library/ColorSync/Scripts. One of
these is called 'Match to chosen profiles'. You can use this to convert
your JPEG from one profile to another. I use it to match images from
their Photoshop profile to my monitor profile.

Do it like this: save your file using 'Save for web' (with or without
profile, it doesn't matter); drag the saved file and drop it on the
Applescript in the finder; a box will open asking you to choose the
'source' script; navigate through the files until you find the profile
which you've been using in Photoshop (e.g. Adobe RGB) and choose it;
you'll now be asked to choose a destination profile; choose your
monitor's profile. The script will now rewrite the file, converting
between the two profiles and leave it with your monitor profile
embedded. (If you don't want to leave the profile embedded there's
another script to remove it).

The changed file should now look the same in your browser as it does in
Photoshop. Furthermore, when viewed on someone else's browser it will
look the same so long as that browser is color-profile aware and is
correctly calibrated. On non-aware browsers (and other software) it
will probably look decent.

There's a caveat to this: the Applescript does not always recognise
JPEGs though I /think/ it's OK with those from 'Save for web'. You can
use it with TIFs too (usually) provided they're uncompressed.

There are probably applications which can do this. I /think/ you can
also do it directly from the full Photoshop; if so it would be a useful
addition to Elements.

This needs to be more generally known!

[Nancy S]

Kirk,

You might also experiment with a comparison, as these images are for web use only...

* set PSE for "No color Management" and edit an image

Browsers are not color managed, so there should be consistency between the appearance of the image as you edit it and the result after saving for web.

* open your image in your browser...the same??

[kirk winslow]

Thanks, guys (in the gender-neutral sense!),

I'll give it a try and report back!

Kirk

[Nancy S]

Kirk,

It is important that you can believe what you're seeing on your monitor (and that others will see close to the same colors on the internet), that the colors are 'true'. Using the 'no color management' setting, display an image of something that you saw in real life (like a scene or whatever that you captured with your camera) to know that the colors on screen are fairly close to the colors from your recollection.

You have run the Adobe Gamma Utility, I hope. That is important as it calibrates your monitor. If your on-screen colors seem 'off', you definitely need to run or RErun the utility. There are many good sources to be found using Google which will help you in running the utility. You should be able to produce an image which will be fairly consistent in appearance for most people on the internet, though there will be slight differences, such as caused by people having their monitors set to differing color temperatures (most monitors have a default setting of 9300 degrees, most knowledgable image editing types will recommend a lower setting).

I'm happy that you see improvement. Now...have fun!!

Nancy

[Nancy S]

Kirk, Barbara,

Whoops, I didn't know that Barbara. Sorry for the bad steer Kirk, but at least she was watching over my shoulder, thanks!

Nancy

[kirk winslow]

Thanks, All-

I haven't calibrated my monitor in a while, so time to do that again I'm sure.

I also wasn't aware of the Applescript color management options out there, and did feel quite limited with the sRGB IEC61966 in PE, so that is a great tip. I will get to work on that ASAP.

I'm still insanely curious (don't think this doesn't cause me troubles in other areas of life! ;-) about why the color loss occurs BEFORE I save (i.e., in the "original" window of the dialog box). Indeed the image in the "Orignial" window appears the same as the .psd version of the image when I follow Nancy's advice and simply save with no color management.

I mean the important part is that you've helped me find a way to work around the problem. In the end, it's getting the images on-line with decent color that really matters to me. But the recovering engineer in me gets a little obsessive-compulsive in trying to figure out what's going haywire in the process. ;-)

Anyway, thanks for all the help! I'm grateful to you all for taking the time to share your wisdom!!! Very kind of you.

Happy editing,

Kirk :-)

[Peter Gaunt]

In article <1dea175a.3@WebX.la2eafNXanI>, kirk winslow
<kwinslow@irvinepres.org> wrote:

> Clearly there is an error somewhere (the color adjustments are being lost --
> when I go to save files with an embedded profile). But it doesn't seem to be
> consistent (i.e., it doesn't happen every time).

There's no error. It's just that your profiles don't match. Try the
match profile applescript I mentioned yesterday and your colours will
match.

> Thanks, Nancy, for the idea! I wasn't aware that web browsers didn't use
> color profiles (tho' that probably should have been obvious). That was a big
> help.

IE5 on the Mac does. It's in the preferences somewhere and is off by
default.

Hardly anything, except graphics applications (and then not all of
those) recognises colour profiles. As you've discovered, if you want
your images to look decent on everything you really need to do a
profile match.

[Peter Gaunt]

In article <1dea175a.13@WebX.la2eafNXanI>, kirk winslow
<kwinslow@irvinepres.org> wrote:

> Well, that would certainly explain the preview window problem. But why would
> the embedded profile not be present in the saved jpeg file. (I can do just as
> straight "Save As" as a max quality jpeg from the .psd file, and it resulting
> jpeg is also missing the embedded profile -- at least it looks as bad as the
> "Save for Web" version, and way worse than the .psd file). Seems like a
> pretty bad bug.

....and you're sure that in the save for web dialogue box you tick the
'ICC profile' icon and in the normal save dialogue you tick the 'embed
profile' icon? If so then there really is something strange going on
because it works for me, in both cases, and so far as I can gather from
reading this thread it works for everyone else.

[kirk winslow]

...and you're sure that in the save for web dialogue box you tick the
'ICC profile' icon and in the normal save dialogue you tick the 'embed
profile' icon?




So utterly, entirely sure.... (I checked and re-checked this 100 times, as this seemed the most logical problem.) Perhaps I have offended the PE gods...?

[kirk winslow]

Great story! :-)

The good news here is that you guys have helped me find a way around it (and taught me about some Applescript stuff I did even know existed). So I am definitely coming out ahead.

Thanks to everyone for the insights!

Kirk