MacIP serving on an internal network

[matt]

A few days ago I got my LCIII working (thanks to people in c.s.mac.misc). My
reasons for doing this were to test out some Ethertalk to Localtalk
bridging/routing - as I have just got netatalk up and running nicely with an
LC475 ie

PC SERVER[netatalk] ---
(ethernet1)----LC475----> (ethernet1)
Cable Modem----(ethernet2)---|
|~(localtalk)~~~LCIII

To my delight on running the Localtalk bridge on the LC475 all the DDP stuff
was visible on both sides - ie any apple client (well the LC475 and a
PCmaclan fake) could see the LCIII shares and the LCIII could see not only
the localtalk LC475 shares but also the server shares from the ethernet.
Perfect.

I then wondered how IP over localtalk could work, and looked into MacIP. As
far as I am aware there is not yet an easy way of doing this on linux - so I
decided to use a mac macIP server on the LC475. I used IPnetRouter from
Sustainable Softworks ([url]www.sustworks.com[/url]). This was able to give the
localtalk interface an ip address, and the LCIII could make contact with it
(the lc475 localtalk), but nothing beyond. I used a range 192.168.1.1/2 for
localtalk and my usual 192.168.0.1/x for ethernet.

The IPNR documentation is geared towards cable modems - not internal
routing - all I want is to redirect from a gateway to another gateway. Am I
going about this the right way? Is there a simpler routing solution... I do
not understand routing properly, and I think I might be going about this all
wrong. The documentaion also mentioned that I should set the LC475 to use
the localtalk interface in the Appletalk Control Panel. Not only did this
seem strange, it also mucks up my perfect localtalk bridge...

any advice/help very much appreciated
matt

--
matthew fullerton
Apple Mac LCIII & LC475/Linux with Netatalk
This message was posted using Outlook Express 6 (sorry)
[email]greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com[/email] is a real address, but don't expect anything
(SPAM or otherwise) to get read

[Bev A. Kupf]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:54:40 +0100,
matt (greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com) wrote:

> I then wondered how IP over localtalk could work, and looked into MacIP. As
> far as I am aware there is not yet an easy way of doing this on linux

Actually, there is. You need a localtalk card for the Linux PC. There may
be messages in the old netatalk archives that describe the procedure to set
this up.

You might try posting your question on the netatalk-list -- someone there
may be able to help you.

Beverly
--
Bev A. Kupf
"The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer

[matt]

"matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bkdk4i$jt6$1@pump1.york.ac.uk...

> A few days ago I got my LCIII working (thanks to people in c.s.mac.misc).

My

> reasons for doing this were to test out some Ethertalk to Localtalk
> bridging/routing - as I have just got netatalk up and running nicely with

an

> LC475 ie
>
> PC SERVER[netatalk] ---
> (ethernet1)----LC475----> (ethernet1)
> Cable Modem----(ethernet2)---|
> |~(localtalk)~~~LCIII

I appreciate this diagram must look hideous theres a bad but clearer one
here: [url]http://www.fire-flash.net/images/diagram.gif[/url]

many thanks
matt


--
matthew fullerton
LC475/MacOS 7.5.5 and LCIII/System 7.1
This message was posted using Outlook Express 6 (sorry)
[email]greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com[/email] is a real address, but don't expect anything
(SPAM or otherwise) to get read

>
> To my delight on running the Localtalk bridge on the LC475 all the DDP

stuff
<cut>

[matt]

"matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bkdk4i$jt6$1@pump1.york.ac.uk...

> A few days ago I got my LCIII working (thanks to people in c.s.mac.misc).

My

> reasons for doing this were to test out some Ethertalk to Localtalk
> bridging/routing - as I have just got netatalk up and running nicely with

an

> LC475 ie
>
> PC SERVER[netatalk] ---
> (ethernet1)----LC475----> (ethernet1)
> Cable Modem----(ethernet2)---|
> |~(localtalk)~~~LCIII

I appreciate this diagram must look hideous theres a bad but clearer one
here: [url]http://www.fire-flash.net/images/diagram.gif[/url]

many thanks
matt


--
matthew fullerton
LC475/MacOS 7.5.5 and LCIII/System 7.1
This message was posted using Outlook Express 6 (sorry)
[email]greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com[/email] is a real address, but don't expect anything
(SPAM or otherwise) to get read

>
> To my delight on running the Localtalk bridge on the LC475 all the DDP

stuff
<cut>

[Sak Wathanasin]

In article <bkdk4i$jt6$1@pump1.york.ac.uk>,
"matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote:

> The IPNR documentation is geared towards cable modems - not internal
> routing - all I want is to redirect from a gateway to another gateway. Am I
> going about this the right way? Is there a simpler routing solution... I do
> not understand routing properly, and I think I might be going about this all
> wrong. The documentaion also mentioned that I should set the LC475 to use
> the localtalk interface in the Appletalk Control Panel. Not only did this
> seem strange, it also mucks up my perfect localtalk bridge...

It's been a long time since I had to do this. Here's a copy of what I posted
to this newsgroup in 1999:

The trick is to imagine that you have 2 e-net interfaces in your router
Mac (you don't actually need 2 e-net i/fs, but it's easier to explain
the config if you pretend that you do). Then it's fairly clear what you
have to do: you split your network into 2 and put all the Macs that are
directly on ethernet on 1 interface, and the Macs that are on LocalTalk
(bridged via the Asante or whatever you're using) on the other, and
config IPNetRouter to router between the 2 sub-nets.

Like so:

---e-net Macs---------+ (i/f 1) router Mac
(i/f 2)
+
LT Macs--------bridge-----|

The router Mac is the one where you run IPNetRouter. So this is what
you need to do:

1) split your network into (at least) 2 sub-nets; decide on a sub-net
mask and assign IP addrs (remember you can't use the all 0s and all 1s
addr in each sub-net). For example, if you decide to split your net
into 4, your netmask is 255.255.255.192; you can use addrs 1-62 on the
first subnet, 65-126 on the 2nd subnet and so on.

2) configure OT for the router Mac as per the e-net Macs, both IP & AT
are on ethernet; set sub-net mask as appr

3) now configure IPNetRouter as follows:
a) IP via ethernet on the main MACE interface (or NIC if you're using
one); make sure sub-net mask matches what you set in OT
b) create a new *logical* interface using DDP (ie IP over AppleTalk,
aka MacIP) using the same physical MACE interface; sub-net mask must
match what you set earlier
c) the router Mac needs 2 IP addrs: one on the e-net sub-net, and one
on the MacIP sub-net
d) configure a static route between the e-net & MacIP sub-nets

4) On your LT Macs, configure MacTCP to use ethertalk; gateway = IP
addr of MacIP side of the router Mac

5) on your e-net Macs, configure OT with a default route to the e-net
side of your IPNet router.

That should be it; if you need more details let me know. I can send you
a IPNetRouter config file for the setup that I used here.

My config was slightly different from yours since I had a Dayna Etherprint
(still do) that did the ethertalk/localtalk bridging.

--

Sak Wathanasin
Network Analysis Limited
[url]http://www.network-analysis.ltd.uk[/url]

[matt]

"Sak Wathanasin" <sw@network-analysis.ltd.uk> wrote in message
news:sw-4BDB25.02434519092003@mail-int.network-analysis.ltd.uk...

> In article <bkdk4i$jt6$1@pump1.york.ac.uk>,
> "matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote:
>

<cut>

>
> It's been a long time since I had to do this. Here's a copy of what I

posted

> to this newsgroup in 1999:
>
> The trick is to imagine that you have 2 e-net interfaces in your router
> Mac (you don't actually need 2 e-net i/fs, but it's easier to explain
> the config if you pretend that you do). Then it's fairly clear what you
> have to do: you split your network into 2 and put all the Macs that are
> directly on ethernet on 1 interface, and the Macs that are on LocalTalk
> (bridged via the Asante or whatever you're using) on the other, and
> config IPNetRouter to router between the 2 sub-nets.

I've had a good read this morning about subnets, they are something I had
never bothered finding out about, I'd always just been happy with
192.168.0.x and 255.255.255.0 - but having read...

I think I will go with 4 subnets, as I may be adding an econet
bridge/network to this at some stage
Can I confirm/question with you the following before I go and do it:
A subnet mask of 255.255.255.192 is needed on *all* machines
My normal ethernet machines retain addresses 192.168.0.x (all below .63)
The mac on the other side of the router has an address above this but below
..127, ie 192.168.0.71
I leave OT on the router mac set up as usual, to do TCP/IP over ethernet and
not MacIP on either ethertalk/localtalk
I have Appletalk on the router mac set to Ethertalk

For the LCIII:
I set it to connect using Ethertalk (MacIP) in MacTCP (just checking I don't
need to install OT for this - I can do if necessary) and Appletalk to
Localtalk (obviously)

In IPNR I add the ddp0 interface to the main screen with the subnet as above
and an IP address in the 2nd range, such as 192.168.0.70
I create a 'static' route between the subnets - what do you mean by this?
Gateway 192.168.0.70 Destination 192.168.0.11 (assuming .11 is my no. for
the ethernet interface on router)???? Is this done in the routing window?

One final question, do I set masquerading to on on either interface? From
what you've said I think I don't - and that would make sense.

Many thanks, this makes a lot more sense than my confusion last night!
matt

ps If you would like to send the config file please do to MATT AT FIRE
(hyphen) FLASH DOT NET - thanks

--
matthew fullerton
LC475/MacOS 7.5.5 and LCIII/System 7.1
This message was posted using Outlook Express 6 (sorry)
[email]greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com[/email] is a real address, but don't expect anything
(SPAM or otherwise) to get read

>
> Like so:
>
> ---e-net Macs---------+ (i/f 1) router Mac
> (i/f 2)
> +
> LT Macs--------bridge-----|
>
> The router Mac is the one where you run IPNetRouter. So this is what
> you need to do:
>
> 1) split your network into (at least) 2 sub-nets; decide on a sub-net
> mask and assign IP addrs (remember you can't use the all 0s and all 1s
> addr in each sub-net). For example, if you decide to split your net
> into 4, your netmask is 255.255.255.192; you can use addrs 1-62 on the
> first subnet, 65-126 on the 2nd subnet and so on.
>
> 2) configure OT for the router Mac as per the e-net Macs, both IP & AT
> are on ethernet; set sub-net mask as appr
>
> 3) now configure IPNetRouter as follows:
> a) IP via ethernet on the main MACE interface (or NIC if you're using
> one); make sure sub-net mask matches what you set in OT
> b) create a new *logical* interface using DDP (ie IP over AppleTalk,
> aka MacIP) using the same physical MACE interface; sub-net mask must
> match what you set earlier
> c) the router Mac needs 2 IP addrs: one on the e-net sub-net, and one
> on the MacIP sub-net
> d) configure a static route between the e-net & MacIP sub-nets
>
> 4) On your LT Macs, configure MacTCP to use ethertalk; gateway = IP
> addr of MacIP side of the router Mac
>
> 5) on your e-net Macs, configure OT with a default route to the e-net
> side of your IPNet router.
>
> That should be it; if you need more details let me know. I can send you
> a IPNetRouter config file for the setup that I used here.
>
> My config was slightly different from yours since I had a Dayna Etherprint
> (still do) that did the ethertalk/localtalk bridging.
>
> --
>
> Sak Wathanasin
> Network Analysis Limited
> [url]http://www.network-analysis.ltd.uk[/url]

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release Date: 11/09/2003

[matt]

"matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bkej3d$1rv$1@pump1.york.ac.uk...

>
> "Sak Wathanasin" <sw@network-analysis.ltd.uk> wrote in message
> news:sw-4BDB25.02434519092003@mail-int.network-analysis.ltd.uk...

> > In article <bkdk4i$jt6$1@pump1.york.ac.uk>,
> > "matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >

<cut>

> >
> > 5) on your e-net Macs, configure OT with a default route to the e-net
> > side of your IPNet router.
> >

And one other small thing: I need to add routes back to the router mac from
the other non mac machines? Can I do this when the other machines are
configured to use 192.168.0.1 as their gateway?

thanks again,
matt

> <cut>

> > That should be it; if you need more details let me know. I can send you
> > a IPNetRouter config file for the setup that I used here.
> >
> > My config was slightly different from yours since I had a Dayna

Etherprint

> > (still do) that did the ethertalk/localtalk bridging.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Sak Wathanasin
> > Network Analysis Limited
> > [url]http://www.network-analysis.ltd.uk[/url]

>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
> Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release Date: 11/09/2003
>
>

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release Date: 11/09/2003

[Sak Wathanasin]

In article <bkej3d$1rv$1@pump1.york.ac.uk>,
"matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I've had a good read this morning about subnets, they are something I had
> never bothered finding out about, I'd always just been happy with
> 192.168.0.x and 255.255.255.0 - but having read...

Using separate 192.168.x.0/24 works fine; they are subnets too, just larger.

> I create a 'static' route between the subnets - what do you mean by this?
> Gateway 192.168.0.70 Destination 192.168.0.11 (assuming .11 is my no. for
> the ethernet interface on router)???? Is this done in the routing window?

Yes, I think; it was 4 years ago...

> One final question, do I set masquerading to on on either interface? From
> what you've said I think I don't - and that would make sense.

No.

There should a sample cfg file on the IPNR site that covers this scenario,
if I remember rightly.

I replaced the IPNR setup with a Wesbter Multigate; it has 1 e-net and 4 LT
interfaces and handles ET/LT bridging, IP-in-DDP and DDP-in-IP (if you ever
wanted to tunnel AppleTalk across the Internet). I no longer have any Macs
on LT since I replaced my PB170 with an iBook, so the WMG is gathering dust
in a storeroom. I even have a manual for it. No reasonable offer refused...

> And one other small thing: I need to add routes back to the router mac from
> the other non mac machines? Can I do this when the other machines are
> configured to use 192.168.0.1 as their gateway?

If they use the Linux box as their default gateway, just add a static route
on the Linux box.

--

Sak Wathanasin
Network Analysis Limited
[url]http://www.network-analysis.ltd.uk[/url]

[Bruce in Alaska]

In article <bkdkmv$kbm$2@pump1.york.ac.uk>,
"matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bkdk4i$jt6$1@pump1.york.ac.uk...

> > A few days ago I got my LCIII working (thanks to people in c.s.mac.misc).

> My

> > reasons for doing this were to test out some Ethertalk to Localtalk
> > bridging/routing - as I have just got netatalk up and running nicely with

> an

> > LC475 ie
> >
> > PC SERVER[netatalk] ---
> > (ethernet1)----LC475----> (ethernet1)
> > Cable Modem----(ethernet2)---|
> > |~(localtalk)~~~LCIII

>
> I appreciate this diagram must look hideous theres a bad but clearer one
> here: [url]http://www.fire-flash.net/images/diagram.gif[/url]
>
> many thanks
> matt

Another Possible route to use is buy a Shiva FastPath 4 or 5 Router off
Ebay. These are hardware routers specifically designed to do the job of
routing AT and IP across Localtalk, and EtherTalk networks. I have seen
these things go for less that the shipping costs. I have both 4's and
5's and also the Farallon StarRouter equvilant running here for many
years. and once they are configured they are basically "Bulletproof".

Bruce in alaska

[matt]

"Bruce in Alaska" <bruceg@btpost.net> wrote in message
news:bruceg-E464F4.09440419092003@netnews.worldnet.att.net...

> In article <bkdkmv$kbm$2@pump1.york.ac.uk>,
> "matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote:
>

> > "matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:bkdk4i$jt6$1@pump1.york.ac.uk...

> > > A few days ago I got my LCIII working (thanks to people in

c.s.mac.misc).
<cut>

>
> Another Possible route to use is buy a Shiva FastPath 4 or 5 Router off
> Ebay. These are hardware routers specifically designed to do the job of
> routing AT and IP across Localtalk, and EtherTalk networks. I have seen
> these things go for less that the shipping costs. I have both 4's and
> 5's and also the Farallon StarRouter equvilant running here for many
> years. and once they are configured they are basically "Bulletproof".
>

I wonder what the shipping to Ireland is... I might stick Appletalk in as
one of my email alert ebay searches - thanks :)

matt

--
matthew fullerton
LC475/MacOS 7.5.5 and LCIII/System 7.1
This message was posted using Outlook Express 6 (sorry)
[email]greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com[/email] is a real address, but don't expect anything
(SPAM or otherwise) to get read

> Bruce in alaska

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release Date: 12/09/2003

[matt]

"Sak Wathanasin" <sw@network-analysis.ltd.uk> wrote in message
news:sw-4BDB25.02434519092003@mail-int.network-analysis.ltd.uk...

> In article <bkdk4i$jt6$1@pump1.york.ac.uk>,
> "matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote:
>

<cut>

> It's been a long time since I had to do this. Here's a copy of what I

posted

> to this newsgroup in 1999:
>
> The trick is to imagine that you have 2 e-net interfaces in your router
> Mac

<cut>

>
> That should be it; if you need more details let me know. I can send you
> a IPNetRouter config file for the setup that I used here.
>
> My config was slightly different from yours since I had a Dayna Etherprint
> (still do) that did the ethertalk/localtalk bridging.

It works! The box for "never" forward IP was checked in the gateway window
(another setting geared for modems?) but once unchecked it all worked just
fine. IPNR created all the routes needed automatically and the following
line did the trick on the linux gateway:
route add 192.168.0.64 gw 192.168.0.11

Does anyone know if this route(route command), and my changed
netmask(ifconfig command) will remain on the linux box after I reboot
(should I ever have to!). Or are the permanent settings stored elsewhere?
This is really a linux question and I guess I shouldn't be asking it here...
but anyway!

thanks loads,
matt

>
> --
>
> Sak Wathanasin
> Network Analysis Limited
> [url]http://www.network-analysis.ltd.uk[/url]

--
matthew fullerton
LC475/MacOS 7.5.5 and LCIII/System 7.1
This message was posted using Outlook Express 6 (sorry)
[email]greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com[/email] is a real address, but don't expect anything
(SPAM or otherwise) to get read



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release Date: 11/09/2003

[matt]

"matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bkhu0o$824$1@pump1.york.ac.uk...

>
> "Sak Wathanasin" <sw@network-analysis.ltd.uk> wrote in message
> news:sw-4BDB25.02434519092003@mail-int.network-analysis.ltd.uk...

> > In article <bkdk4i$jt6$1@pump1.york.ac.uk>,
> > "matt" <greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >

<cut>

>
> Does anyone know if this route(route command), and my changed
> netmask(ifconfig command) will remain on the linux box after I reboot
> (should I ever have to!). Or are the permanent settings stored elsewhere?
> This is really a linux question and I guess I shouldn't be asking it

here...

> but anyway!

Never worry about this - I took the easy way out and went into the pretty
GNOME gui and ran the network config thingy...

matt

--
matthew fullerton
LC475/MacOS 7.5.5 and LCIII/System 7.1
This message was posted using Outlook Express 6 (sorry)
[email]greatbigblackhole@hotmail.com[/email] is a real address, but don't expect anything
(SPAM or otherwise) to get read



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
Version: 6.0.518 / Virus Database: 316 - Release Date: 11/09/2003