Need advice on spot colors and transparency

[LeeAnn_Nelson@adobeforums.com]

I'm using Illus 10 on a Mac under system 9.2. I've created some art using 2 PMS colors and the watercolor brush, which I assume uses transparency to get its effect. I'll be using the artwork in a 2-color Quark file. So far, separations printed from Quark to my laser printer look fine, but when I create a PDF proof for the client, the colors shift wildly, which has made me concerned about final high-resolution output. Anybody had experience with spot colors, transparency and separation?

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

Are your profiles for both AI and Acrobat the same and what are you PDF settings like?

[Mordy_Golding@adobeforums.com]

How are you creating your PDF file from Quark? Are you sure it isn't RGB?

If you have Acrobat Pro (or InDesign CS), you can check the separations on-screen.

:) Mordy

[LeeAnn_Nelson@adobeforums.com]

I think I have my profiles set the same in both Illustrator 10 and Acrobat 5, but I'll double check them (just recently started using Illus 10 instead of 9 so I may have overlooked that). To create the PDF I print a postscript file out of Quark and distill it with settings for hi-res output. But I'm not really so concerned about the color shift in the PDF proof. I can talk the client through that, and the printed color laser proofs look good. I'm more worried that it might be a sign of impending trouble when we get to separations for print. This art is used on every page of a medium-sized book. Everything I've read seems to say that as long as I don't flatten the art in Illustrator the spot colors should separate OK, but I'm just delivering final files to the client, and they'll handle pre-press and printing. I just want to make sure I'm not causing them grief. I have another workstation with OS 10.3, Illus CD and Acrobat Pro, but client wants files in Quark 4.2 and I didn't want to build it in Quark 6 and then downsave it. Sorry for the long story, but do you foresee separation problems?

[Mordy_Golding@adobeforums.com]

Sounds like you're in the clear to me. If you're concerned, I would suggest you send a test file to your client so that they can pass it on to their pre-press people to run a test. On a project the size you're talking about, it would make sense to do so in any case anyway.

:) Mordy

[Dee Holmes]

Wouldn't you have to be saving the AI file in .eps format to place into Quark? But doesn't saving as an .eps flatten the artwork anyway? Would that make the difference?

[LeeAnn_Nelson@adobeforums.com]

See, Dee, it's questions like that that scare me! I can't seem to find an answer to that question. Elsewhere in this forum there are warnings not to "flatten manually" within Illustrator. And the warning you get when saving the eps file refers to converting spot colors to CMYK outside of Illustrator, which is what I don't want to happen. But as I said, the artwork prints as a 2-color separation out of Quark on my laser printer. Can anybody out there answer Dee's question? By the way, thanks for the responses!

[Dee Holmes]

You don't have to worry about the warning "converting spot colors to CMYK outside of Illustrator" unless you are going to change them manually to CMYK in Quark. I don't think you have to worry about that in this case.

Also when you are exorting to .pdf from Quark, I'm pretty sure there's a checkbox for retaining spot colors somewhere. Depending how you are exporting.

[Dee Holmes]

If you were soley worried about the warning popping up about transparencies with spot colors, I agree with Mordy, that you shouldn't have any problem.

[LeeAnn_Nelson@adobeforums.com]

No, I'm not worried about the warning. And I'm not even that worried about the PDF--which I made by distilling a postscript file, with the setting "Leave Color Unchanged" (I don't see a checkbox for retaining spot colors). I'm really only worried about hi-res output separations and thought my PDF problem was an early warning sign. But it sounds like I'll be OK. I'll take Mordy's suggestion and send a sample file. I just didn't want the client to think I didn't know what I was doing (that's just our little secret, OK?)

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

No. I'm telling!

[Dee Holmes]

Don't worry about them thinking you don't know what you're doing. They wont think that even if the color screws up. They'll just wonder what the hell's going on if the color is way off.

If it's a problem, prepress should catch it. If they don't it's a learning curve for them. (In my opinion only, I'm in prepress)

We pretty much fix anything that's a problem on press and we don't usually blame a designer for the setup. Unless it's very unusual.

[LeeAnn_Nelson@adobeforums.com]

You don't blame the designer? Quick, what printer do you do pre-press for? I'll send you all my future jobs! I'm blamed for everything, including late trash pick-up! (Seriously, you don't think 2-color with transparency from Illustrator 10 is "unusual"?) I'm having so much fun in this forum! And Wade, you hush up! This is my livlihood you're messin' with here.

[Wade_Zimmerman@adobeforums.com]

Well there's a price for my silence.

[Dee Holmes]

Just don't save the .eps file down to AI9 keep it in AI10, or it'll totally get screwed up.

[LeeAnn_Nelson@adobeforums.com]

Thanks everybody for all the good advice!

[John_Kallios@adobeforums.com]

I know you are pretty much in the clear for this topic, but I will add my 2¢ anyways.

I am not familiar with the watercolor brush in 10 (I do not have that brush loaded in 10) but if it is the same as the watercolor stroke brush in CS, then the brush does not contain transparency. You can also drag the brush out to the artboard to examine the elment to see the makeup.

As to your question if transparency is present, the eps file is a flat file. (at least the portion that Xpress sees) Do not use the flatten transparency function within Illustrator 10 because it will convert spot colors to process.

Issues and results that saving to eps causes:

Since the eps is flat, transparent "pixels" and the % of transparency a "pixel" has will apear as WHITE in Xpress. (InDesign as well) Regardless if saved with a transparent tif preview. If a transparent tif preview is used, the display will not be accurate to what the image will print as.

Other issue is that any object that has the overprint attribute applied when the file contains transparency, the attribute will only overprint internal elements. NOT external elements in Xpress. (this is fixed in CS)

When working with ANY image that contains spot color and placed in Xpress, the pms name in the file must match EXACTLY the name Xpress uses. Also, using only the C and U designation of the spot color is highly recommended. Even though you created the rest of the file in Xpress 4, Xpress 5 and 6 automatically remaps spot colors to its internal library. Xpress 6 causes even more pain with this issue. While it works in a separated, using deviceN (which your printers may use) can cause problems. (depending on their rips)

So, since your Xpress 4 files will eventually end up in 6 and beyond, it is best to convert your workflow to the new naming process if you have not already done so.

As to the screen preview issue in Xpress vs. Illustrator vx. Acrobat, I would not worry about it. Xpress is always a poor preview and you most likely created a pdf that converted the spot to process within the pdf. Since you can output seps correctly from Xpress, and you are supplying native files, you should be fine. (as you already know)

[Dee Holmes]

Thanx for the explaination, John.

[Mordy_Golding@adobeforums.com]

You know it's weird -- I examined the watercolor brush and also noticed that it didn't have any transparency applied -- but when I ran the flattener preview, it indicated that the brush had transparency in it. I'll have to take a closer look at it.

Believe anything John Kallios says -- his advice is always golden.

And Wade's silence is worth paying for :)

As for sending a test file to a printer, I don't think that a printer or client would say that is cause for a designer who doesn't know anything -- rather it's a sign of a designer who knows what they are doing -- mainly, avoiding possible problems the hour before a deadline. Besides, I've met too many printers who DON'T know how to properly handle files with transparency. It's always a good bet to make sure in advance.

:) Mordy

[Dee Holmes]

As always, great point, Mordy.