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Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22 - Photography

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    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

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    Brian Guest
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    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

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    Marty Guest
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  3. #43

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22


    "Brian C. Baird" <no> wrote in message
    news:verizon.net... 
    >>
    >> It would take an incredibly big case and clear alteration of evidence to
    >> get
    >> long-standing legal precedent set aside.[/ref]
    >
    > I'm sure of it. But things have a funny way of coming about.
    >
    > What if a journalist snapped photos of a crime in progress with a
    > digital camera and those photos were used as evidence, much as closed-
    > circuit video footage is? Would someone dare accuse the photographer of
    > digital manipulation, and would the judge be stupid enough to believe
    > him?[/ref]

    Accuse - certainly. And if the images were the only evidence the
    prosecution had, the accusation might carry some weight. But the images are
    never the only evidence. This issue has to be considered within the global
    context of what occurs in a trial.

    And if it ever happens that a conviction is lost because of it, then the
    technology will be needed. But by then, everything discussed here today
    will be technologically "old news."

    Walt


    Walt Guest

  4. #44

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    In article <com>, net
    says... 
    >
    > Accuse - certainly. And if the images were the only evidence the
    > prosecution had, the accusation might carry some weight. But the images are
    > never the only evidence. This issue has to be considered within the global
    > context of what occurs in a trial.[/ref]

    You're correct in the fact the prosecution could never go to trial with
    photos alone - but they could go to trial with their case heavily
    dependant on photographs of the crime in progress.
     

    Well, a conviction was lost because a glove "didn't fit". Well, that,
    really lousy police work and a star-struck judge.

    Canon seems to be thinking a little too far ahead on this issue. To my
    knowledge, no one is using/has bought those data verification kits. The
    one market they may of had, crime scene/police photographers, apparently
    doesn't need them!
    Brian Guest

  5. #45

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    2005-03-09, Brian C Baird wrote: 

    I find that hard to believe. Even outside crime scene/police work the need
    to be able to ,,sign'' digital doents (be it photo's or something else)
    is obvious, and people have been doing it for a long time (way before 1999
    so how this patent came about someone mentioned in another posting...).

    Well, if it is true, it is time to get worried about the police force...

    -peter

    Peter Guest

  6. #46

    Default Re: Cryptographic image signatures

    DoN. Nichols wrote:
     
    >
    >
    > Probably not a bad idea, if the camera is equipped to record GPS
    > info into the image (something which would be useful in some fields --
    > including your spies. :-)[/ref]

    There is at least one SLR that EXIF's GPS data into image file. I don't
    remember which.

    --
    -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
    -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
    Alan Guest

  7. #47

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    On 09 Mar 2005 13:09:37 GMT, Peter <net> wrote: 

    The patent isn't on signing data, it's on a camera that signs its
    output. This is cool because as long as the camera is relatively
    tamperproof, the photographer need not be trusted! (You can see
    why spying and insurance came to mind as target markets.)

    --
    Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215
    Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
    questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
    --Josh Micah Marshall
    Ben Guest

  8. #48

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    In article <panix.com>,
    Ben Rosengart <br+com> wrote: 
    >
    >The patent isn't on signing data, it's on a camera that signs its
    >output. This is cool because as long as the camera is relatively
    >tamperproof, the photographer need not be trusted! (You can see
    >why spying and insurance came to mind as target markets.)[/ref]

    I don't want to know how you can patent something a trivial as that.

    (If the camera has to sign it, there is a trivial way around it, just
    have to camera encrypt the data and have some other device decrypt and
    sign the data. Using public keys this is relatively easy to secure, doesn't
    require anything special in the camera (other than a public key) and
    provides confidentiality when images are transmitted wireless.).


    --
    That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
    could believe what it liked, including the idea that it bad been done by.
    It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses where so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
    Philip Guest

  9. #49

    Default Re: Cryptographic image signatures

    In article <d0n4ng$t4i$gazeta.pl>,
    Alan Browne <ca> wrote: 
    >>
    >> Probably not a bad idea, if the camera is equipped to record GPS
    >> info into the image (something which would be useful in some fields --
    >> including your spies. :-)[/ref]
    >
    >There is at least one SLR that EXIF's GPS data into image file. I don't
    >remember which.[/ref]

    Without a built-in GPS, how can you trust the GPS data?


    --
    That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
    could believe what it liked, including the idea that it bad been done by.
    It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses where so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
    Philip Guest

  10. #50

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:46:57 +0100, Philip Homburg
    <home.cs.vu.nl> wrote: 
    >
    > I don't want to know how you can patent something a trivial as that.[/ref]

    It fits all the criteria of a patentable concept.

    Lots of things are "trivial" once someone else has thought of it and
    told you about it.
     

    No. (I guess it's not so "trivial" after all.)

    --
    Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215
    Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
    questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
    --Josh Micah Marshall
    Ben Guest

  11. #51

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    In article <panix.com>,
    Ben Rosengart <br+com> wrote: 
    >
    >It fits all the criteria of a patentable concept.
    >
    >Lots of things are "trivial" once someone else has thought of it and
    >told you about it.[/ref]

    Get real.
     
    >
    >No. (I guess it's not so "trivial" after all.)[/ref]

    What no? The signature box generates for each camera a public/private key
    pair. The public key is transfered to the camera. (How you transfer the
    public key depends on who you trust, it is possible that the camera needs
    a private key of its own to allow the key to be installed in a secure way).

    For each image the camera generates a random key for a shared key system
    and encrypts the image. The camera encrypts the shared key with the
    public key of the signature box.

    The signature box is the only thing that can decrypt the image. After
    decryption, the box signs the image.

    Be my guest, how do you break this scheme...


    --
    That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
    could believe what it liked, including the idea that it bad been done by.
    It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses where so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
    Philip Guest

  12. #52

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:14:41 +0100, Philip Homburg
    <home.cs.vu.nl> wrote: 

    There is nothing here to prevent impersonation of the camera.
    Perhaps you didn't understand the point of the exercise?

    --
    Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215
    Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
    questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
    --Josh Micah Marshall
    Ben Guest

  13. #53

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    In article <panix.com>,
    Ben Rosengart <br+com> wrote: 
    >
    >There is nothing here to prevent impersonation of the camera.
    >Perhaps you didn't understand the point of the exercise?[/ref]

    There is because the 'public key' is not public. (That's why I included the
    text about installing the key in a secure way and having a per camera
    public/private key pair).

    Of course the signature box can impersonate the camera. But that should
    be no problem.


    --
    That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
    could believe what it liked, including the idea that it bad been done by.
    It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses where so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
    Philip Guest

  14. #54

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:45:21 +0100, Philip Homburg
    <home.cs.vu.nl> wrote: 

    I am committed to being friendly and polite in this newsgroup.
    So I am not going to discuss cryptography with you any more.

    --
    Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215
    Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
    questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
    --Josh Micah Marshall
    Ben Guest

  15. #55

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    If you prefer high ISO and low noise, then you're going to have to go
    the Canon route.

    Scharf-DCA Guest

  16. #56

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:43:20 +0000 (UTC), Ben Rosengart
    <br+com> wrote:
     

    Nobody in the thread seems to have mentioned research as a market.
    Half of the results in molecular biology come in the form of a gel
    electrophoresis that has to be photographed, because it can't be
    stored. And these days, scientific integrity is an omnipresent issue.
    It won't do allowing somebody to photoshop a critical band in or out.

    In the olden days, the gels were recorded by Polaroid cameras, the
    pictures of which were reasonably tamperproof.

    Today, there are designated CCD systems that are, or claim to be,
    tamperproof. But they are a great deal more expensive than an EOS 20D
    and a DVK-E2 kit.

    Jan Böhme
    Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
    Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.
    Jan Guest

  17. #57

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    Philip Homburg wrote:
     

    I'm not sure why it has to be that involved. Each individual camera
    could have a key associated with its serial number. Sign the image with
    the private key and anyone can D/L the public key (from the OEM website)
    and verify it.

    Cheers,
    Alan

    --
    -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
    -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
    Alan Guest

  18. #58

    Default Re: Cryptographic image signatures

    Philip Homburg wrote:
     
     
    >
    >
    > Without a built-in GPS, how can you trust the GPS data?[/ref]

    No built in GPS, just an interface. The EXIF *should* record the GPS
    state at the time of the info recording, including SV state data in
    order to have a verifiable signature of the GPS data tied to the image
    data. You'd then have to keep a copy of the Alamanac from the USCG (I'm
    not sure how far back their database goes).

    Indoors and in some poor geometry conditions/locations, the GPS will be
    useless of course, but that should be refelcted in the data.

    Finally, GPS data has not been required to date as part of testimony,


    --
    -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
    -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
    Alan Guest

  19. #59

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    In article <d0nt9j$g9m$gazeta.pl>,
    Alan Browne <ca> wrote: 
    >
    >I'm not sure why it has to be that involved. Each individual camera
    >could have a key associated with its serial number. Sign the image with
    >the private key and anyone can D/L the public key (from the OEM website)
    >and verify it.[/ref]

    The assumption is that what you just wrote was non-obvious in 1999 and a
    patent was granted.

    So, if you want to work around the concept of having the camera sign the
    image, you have to have some other device do the actual signing.


    --
    That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
    could believe what it liked, including the idea that it bad been done by.
    It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses where so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
    Philip Guest

  20. #60

    Default Re: Nikkor 12-24 vs. Canon 10-22

    Jan Böhme wrote:
     

    The movie "Sikwood" with the nuklear fuel rod x-rays being retouched
    comes to mind...
     

    So keep doing the polaroids?


    Cheers,
    Alan


    --
    -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
    -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
    -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
    -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
    Alan Guest

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