Not including links when saving AI.eps

[John_Slate@adobeforums.com]

The other day a co-worker of mine who doesn't work with Illy that much asked me for help. He was trying to open a customers Illustrator EPS file to make an edit, and did not know what to make of the "can not find linked file <filename> etc..." message.

I told him if they did not send the link choose to extract the image, and then open the newly extracted link in Photoshop and resave for the preview as the extracted imge will not have one.

He came back in about 5 minutes and said that extract was not an option.

That threw me off, so I went to his machine and sure enough, his only options were to find the link, ignore or cancel (which do the same thing... open the file with the linked image gone).

As it happens, the link was somewhere else on his machine, in a "links" folder so all was well, but this got me to wondering.

I am guessing that this particular EPS file was saved with the "include linked images" check box unchecked otherwise "extract" would have been an option. ...and in this case, we all know that "include" really means "embed".

<tangent alarm> I find it odd that embedding images this way embeds them for the purposes of placement and printing in a layout program, but if you try to open the ai.eps file and the links are not in the same folder as said ai.eps file, or are not in the same location that they were in when they were first linked, then Illustrator insists on relinking to the image even though the image is embedded.

Beside the extract feature for when a user sends the EPS without the links, one has to wonder why one cannot open such a file in the same manner as a file in which the images were embedded during file>place, or during editing via links palette flyout. A "re-establish links" dialog box would be nice were you can choose to use the embedded images as fully embedded images, or relink them.

But I digress.

What I was wondering about was that other type of Illy EPS file, were you choose NOT to include links.

I know there is a good reason for doing this and certain workflows that it is a good thing for (OPI ?) but for the life of me I can’t remember what those good reasons are.

To finally get around to my actual question: what are the potential problems of saving an Illy.eps file without the linked images, then placing the eps into a layout and printing? I am guessing that for it to work, the links would be best to reside in the same folder as the Illy.eps file, and if a prepress tech moves the links to a new folder of his making called “links” or something, then they will not be picked up by the print stream from the layout app. And in such a case would there be some type of error message from the printing application, or would the images simply not show up at the rip?

Now, if Bill the designer links to images in a “links” folder on his harddrive, saves the Illy.eps without the links, in another folder altogether, places in QXP and prints, will everything be OK since the Illy.eps contains the proper filepath for the links, “i.e. Bill the designer’s McIntosh HD/Client Files/Nabisco/Corporate Brochure/linked images”?

Then if Bill copies his job to a CD and sends it off to the printer, the printer uploads the files, and now the linked images are no longer at “Bill the designer’s McIntosh HD/Client Files/Nabisco/Corporate Brochure/linked images” but “Bob the Printer’s Mac/Jobs in Progress/109357 Bill’s Design Emporium/linked images”. He opens the QXD updates the link to the Illy.eps file, which is not in the “linked images” folder, but in the “artwork” folder, and prints. Will that be a problem?

What if Bob the printer moves the linked images out of the “linked images” folder and puts them in the “artwork” folder along with the Illy.eps folder? Will this solve the problem assuming a problem exists? Or if Bob the printer opens the Illy.eps file and reestablishes the links, now to “Bob the Printer’s Mac/Jobs I Progress/109357 Bill’s Design Emporium/ linked im

[John_Slate@adobeforums.com]

Long-winded post continued...

What if Bob the printer moves the linked images out of the “linked images” folder and puts them in the “artwork” folder along with the Illy.eps folder? Will this solve the problem assuming a problem exists? Or if Bob the printer opens the Illy.eps file and reestablishes the links, now to “Bob the Printer’s Mac/Jobs I Progress/109357 Bill’s Design Emporium/ linked images” and resaves without the including the links?

Certainly there is a good argument here for including links when saving EPS files out of Illy, but one can’t control what some customers will do.

Notice how I have not included InDesign in any of my questions, though I wonder if similar problems would ensue if you replaced QXP with ID in the above scenarios? Of course the reality of it is: this should not ever come up since the EPS file format out of Illustrator is totally unnecessary for placing in ID, when you can place Illy.ai files.

What about Illy.ai files with LINKED image placed in ID? Are there similar potential file path issues when it comes to printing placed .ai files with links that have moved location, or are not in the same folder as said .ai files?

Geez, I’m rambling now.

I’ll stop.

[Dee Holmes]

I had this problem last week after reading this post

Dee Holmes "embedded vs linked photoshop files" 5/23/04 3:52pm </cgi-bin/webx?14@@.3bb44034/0>

I always checked include links, but someone said that it just embedded the file anyway. So I left it unchecked, and when I reopened my file, the links were lost. They were in the same folder also, and I couldn't relink them either. I had to bring them in as embedded.

[John_Kallios@adobeforums.com]

Hey John,

Well, I never fully explored all of the different variables regarding this matter.

I am doing various tests and have found some inexplicaple results. I do not want to post yet until I confirm the results on other boxes and do some further tests. When all is said and done, I do not think I will be able to post the "why" for the results received.

What I can post now is that I am very frustrated with the include links checkbox whether saving out to eps or .ai.

Place a eps, tif, pdf, and a psd in a illustrator document.

Save out as .ai without including links and name the file linked.ai.
Save out as eps without including links and name the file linked.eps.
Save out as .ai and include links and name the file include.ai.
Save out as eps and include links and name the file include.eps.

The linked.ai and linked.eps files will reopen with all of its links intacted.

The include.ai and include.eps files will reopen with ONLY the eps link intacted. The psd, pdf and tif images will now be embedded. (This is my frustration with the process because the results should be that all of the images remain linked)

Upon reopening he include files with the eps link missing, users can extract the image from the document. (and do a resave in its native application to regain the preview) In the linked files, users do NOT have the option to extract the files.

My position on the linked verses embed/include is that users generate their documents as linked. The Illustrator documents then that are handed off to a printer are saved as inlcude links or embed them.

As with InDesign or Quark. All placed images should remain LINKED at all times.

That is my opinion.

I will post at a later time with preserving links when transferring to other systems.

[Dee Holmes]

Thank you for taking the time to work this out, John K.

[John_Slate@adobeforums.com]

I think Illy has actually embedded tiffs as compared to eps when selecting the "include links" option when saving EPS out of Illy, and it has done so since version 8.

So presumably, the message about missing links (when they are not sent with the EPS file) would only happen for linked EPS when "include links" was checked, or ALL files when "include links" was not checked.

It seems that one has to go to some trouble and ignore warnings about not including links when saving EPS, so doing so must cause problems, printing from QXP... And I still wonder about saving .ai without the including the links and potential printing problems from placing in ID.

Of course I agree with your stance on links... we have enough file bloat as it is... and embedding makes edits a chore.

However saving an Illustrator.ai file without including the links, then placing in ID and printing seems like the right way to go, where as saving an Illustrator.eps file without including the links, then placing in QXP and printing seems like the wrong way to go.

[Dee Holmes]

So, I think you're saying the same thing as I am?

When saving, include links, right? I guess, even if that means it will be embedded?

There is a difference, in my shop anyway. It takes longer to RIP embedded files than links.

I'm telling you, I've had good luck for years linking files and choosing include links in the save menue until now. Then someone suggested that option only embedded files anyway and not to choose include linked files.

Do not attempt this unless a test. I know from experience....

Just wait for John Kallios' analosis.

[Dee Holmes]

John, K. please do both analosis AI10 and AIOS

[John_Kallios@adobeforums.com]

Just wait for John Kallios' analysis




Well, I am still doing it. Being a little swamped at work, it will take 1 or 2 more days.

I would much rather have a few people devise their own tests and post their results so that a sufficient cross section of prepress systems can be posted.

[Dee Holmes]

I would be more than happy to, but this week is out. I'm swamped!

[allenatl@adobeforums.com]

There are two separate issues here. The first issue concerns how Illustrator's saving options relate to embedding files. The second concerns when is it necessary to embed.

On the first issue:
When saving, checking the "Include Linked Files" option embeds all files that aren't already embedded. If all your files are already embedded, then this option isn't available.
Leaving the option unchecked leaves the files as linked. From what I've seen, this causes the most confusion. If you want linked files instead of embedded files, DO NOT check "Include Linked Files". As someone suggested in another thread, they really should change this option to "Embed Linked Files" to eliminate some of the confusion.

On the second issue:
If you are outputting from Quark, and placing the images directly in Quark is not an option, then embed the images in Illustrator. If not embedded, there is a high probability that Quark will lose the link. It is very common for files to lose their links when placed in a separate folder from the Illustrator file and sometimes Quark may produce incorrect output with no warning about a missing file. It's similar to an Illustrator file using a missing font and outputting from Quark - Sometimes you'll get a warning, but other times you'll simply get output with Courier font substituted.
If you are outputting from Illustrator, embed or link placed images, whichever you and your printer prefers. ALWAYS ask the printer which one they prefer. Illustrator files with embedded images are much larger and take longer to RIP. If linking files, you MUST send the original linked files along with the Illustrator file. If embedding, though it's not required, and may even seem redundant, send the originals as a fail-safe for any problems that may occur.

Allen Curtis

[Joe_leMonnier@adobeforums.com]

This one has been bugging me for quite some time. I've even posted a couple of times about it.

My experiance has been that when saved as 'text" or "ai", files with TIFF links will be about the same size as they would be without the links at all unless you have checked "include linked files". BUT, when changing to "save as EPS" the file does indeed appear to bloat by about the size of the link no matter how you save it. I haven't experimented at all with it to determine if it is embedded.

I found as John did that a linked EPS image will not swell the Illustrator file when saved.

[John_Slate@adobeforums.com]

I, like John K, have been a bit busy at work and plan on testing eventually.

I think what I will find out is that saving EPS without including links simply will not work when placed in a layout and printed... period.

You get a warning in Illy when saving this way, so I have to wonder what the option is for, and now I can safely say that the customer who saved an EPS that way would have caused problems on our end. Of course being in the service side of the biz, dealing with client mistakes is a daily event.

For that matter, unless you are still stuck in the need-to-use-Quark mode, there is no compelling reason for saving EPS out of Illustrator, with or without links included.

Linking all raster elements in a .AI file, saving without including links, then placing in ID to print (or printing out of Illy if you dare) in the wave of the future. We can say goodbye to not only EPS, but clipping paths using a modern Adobe workflow...

As Martha would say, it's a good thing.

The only thing I am unsure about is whether moving a file which is linked to a .AI file which in turn is linked to an ID document will cause the image to not find its way into the print stream.