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Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments? - Oracle Server

"Don Burleson" <donburleson.cc> wrote in message news:998d28f7.0212250820.5cc2fb6posting.google.co m... > Greetings, > > I have heard a rumor that the Oracle9i OCP SQL exam is unproctored: > > "The new exam is un-proctored, meaning that you can take the exam > unsupervised at your own location. If you do not have good internet > access, proctored exams are delivered in a secure testing environment, > at an Oracle University Training Center or Authorized Prometric > Testing Center." > > Because there is no guarantee that the person taking the exam is the > same person who registered for the exam, many ...

  1. #1

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?


    "Don Burleson" <donburleson.cc> wrote in message
    news:998d28f7.0212250820.5cc2fb6posting.google.co m...
    > Greetings,
    >
    > I have heard a rumor that the Oracle9i OCP SQL exam is unproctored:
    >
    > "The new exam is un-proctored, meaning that you can take the exam
    > unsupervised at your own location. If you do not have good internet
    > access, proctored exams are delivered in a secure testing environment,
    > at an Oracle University Training Center or Authorized Prometric
    > Testing Center."
    >
    > Because there is no guarantee that the person taking the exam is the
    > same person who registered for the exam, many DBAs feel that this
    > practice degrades the value of Oracle certification, and makes it even
    > more worthless than before.
    >
    > Comments?
    You can't devalue something which was worthless in the first place.

    Regards,
    Paul



    Paul Brewer Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?


    "Steve Jorgensen" <nospamnospam.nospam> wrote in message
    news:ccll0v8og5jvhv9e6eko6cdpg61e0lvqos4ax.com...
    > On Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:23:41 -0000, "Paul Brewer"
    > <paulpaul.brewers.org.uk> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"Don Burleson" <donburleson.cc> wrote in message
    > >news:998d28f7.0212250820.5cc2fb6posting.google.c om...
    > >> Greetings,
    > >>
    > >> I have heard a rumor that the Oracle9i OCP SQL exam is unproctored:
    > >>
    > >> "The new exam is un-proctored, meaning that you can take the exam
    > >> unsupervised at your own location. If you do not have good internet
    > >> access, proctored exams are delivered in a secure testing environment,
    > >> at an Oracle University Training Center or Authorized Prometric
    > >> Testing Center."
    > >>
    > >> Because there is no guarantee that the person taking the exam is the
    > >> same person who registered for the exam, many DBAs feel that this
    > >> practice degrades the value of Oracle certification, and makes it even
    > >> more worthless than before.
    > >>
    > >> Comments?
    > >
    > >You can't devalue something which was worthless in the first place.
    > >
    > >Regards,
    > >Paul
    > >
    > >
    >
    > Worthless to whom?
    To the industry.

    Employers worth working for know it's a heap of doo-dah. Employers who think
    it means something aren't worth working for.

    Regards
    HJR


    >
    > I'm someone with extensive background in MS SQL Server. In my case,
    > shouldn't Oracle certification show that I've learned the specifics of
    > Oracle, and thus be of great value in conjunction with my long
    > background in relational databases when I apply for a job using
    > Oracle? To me, the Oracle exam as it has stood until now sounded
    > worthwhile, and this unproctored thing is bothersome to me as I have
    > yet to take the exams and obtain my certification.

    Howard J. Rogers Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    > What do you mean "worthless"?
    >
    > They're paying for Larry's America's Cup challenge boat aren't they?
    >
    > Dan Morgan

    Micro$oft shoves a revenue pipe up everyone's #$% for every worthless
    product they can come up with.

    On the other hand, Oracle let's you "Test" their software for free so
    Larry atleast deserves a revenue pipe of some sort....no matter the
    end result is OCP.

    /Rauf Sarwar
    Rauf Sarwar Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    I do not think OCP is as "worthless" as some of our respected
    contributors in this forum are trying to paint it.
    I am not sure what some people expect OCP,s to do.Get in and
    solve every problem or answer all questions which are oracle related?
    Just like other diplomas and every work of life, some people come out
    without a lot to offer while others come out with the feel of some
    one who has been working for a while.Some need a lot of training but
    others seem to be ready to go.But the bottom line is you know at least
    on a theoretical bases ( assuming
    you read books exclusively in preparation for the tests )some very
    useful information about Oracle.
    "Worthless" therefore is not the proper word
    Michael Tubuo Ngong
    michael ngong Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    michael ngong wrote:
    > I do not think OCP is as "worthless" as some of our respected
    > contributors in this forum are trying to paint it.
    > I am not sure what some people expect OCP,s to do.Get in and
    > solve every problem or answer all questions which are oracle related?
    > Just like other diplomas and every work of life, some people come out
    > without a lot to offer while others come out with the feel of some
    > one who has been working for a while.Some need a lot of training but
    > others seem to be ready to go.But the bottom line is you know at least
    > on a theoretical bases ( assuming
    > you read books exclusively in preparation for the tests )some very
    > useful information about Oracle.
    > "Worthless" therefore is not the proper word
    > Michael Tubuo Ngong
    I expect the OCP to be the equivalent in Oracle to the medical exam taken
    by a physician or the State Bar exam taken by attorney's or the pharmacy
    board exams taken by pharmacists. I expect them to be capable of
    distinguishing between those with book knowledge (no actual or practical
    experience) and those that can actually do that job.

    From that standpoint the OCP doesn't cut it. After you graduate from a
    university you an employer can phone the university and verify you
    attended and your graduation. Call Oracle after you pass the OCP and try
    to verify that they've ever heard your name before.

    And the above is why, at the University of Washington, our curriculum is
    intentionally not basedon the OCP but rather is based on actual
    application development using applications built for AT&T and Boeing as
    models. We want our students to be able to do the work ... not just
    answer multiple choice questions about obscure things that no-one
    actually uses or does.

    Daniel Morgan

    DA Morgan Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    On Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:09:55 GMT, Steve Jorgensen
    <nospamnospam.nospam> wrote:
    >I'm someone with extensive background in MS SQL Server. In my case,
    >shouldn't Oracle certification show that I've learned the specifics of
    >Oracle, and thus be of great value in conjunction with my long
    >background in relational databases when I apply for a job using
    >Oracle?
    It shows you can read a book and English is your first language.
    Also, the OCP material is usually fraught with errors and in some
    cases the approved answers to some questions are debatable


    Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA

    To reply remove -verwijderdit from my e-mail address
    Sybrand Bakker Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    Don Burleson wrote:
    > Greetings,
    >
    > I have heard a rumor that the Oracle9i OCP SQL exam is unproctored:
    >
    > "The new exam is un-proctored, meaning that you can take the exam
    > unsupervised at your own location. If you do not have good internet
    > access, proctored exams are delivered in a secure testing environment,
    > at an Oracle University Training Center or Authorized Prometric
    > Testing Center."
    >
    > Because there is no guarantee that the person taking the exam is the
    > same person who registered for the exam, many DBAs feel that this
    > practice degrades the value of Oracle certification, and makes it even
    > more worthless than before.
    >
    > Comments?
    Seem a bit odd, taking an exam, but without proof of who did it.

    I disagree with those who say OCP is worthless.

    A drivers license doesn't make you a formula pilot.
    It is true OCP doesn't make you master in anything.
    It proofs that you were able to answer ~60% right on ~60 odd and
    sometimes theoretical questions.

    *but* study for OCP gives anybody the opportunity to come out of the
    dba-cave/application and take a tour around in most of the features and
    corners of the huge product.

    And *that* has value. A better overall understanding and knowledge has
    value.

    It is easy to be a critic. It is harder to make it better.

    Some of those that say OCP is worthless and are not OCP's
    - either they cant handle/take it (now I get flamed).
    - or cant get their employer to pay for it or cant afford it.
    - or think they are masters in their own right.

    rgds

    /Svend Jensen OCP


    Svend Jensen Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    Fri, 27 Dec 2002 03:13:10 GMT, Joe said (and I quote):

    > I think the process is very worthwhile. At least I got a feeling what
    > Oracle 9i will provide other than 8i.
    What exactly does it provide? The two examples you quoted are also
    available in 8i...

    See? This is what I mean by being trained for the specifics of one
    particular version.
    You are not learning ANYTHING to do with relational database or its use.
    You are learning the specifics of one version of a piece of software.
    And assuming that what you have been told is part of 9i is the be-all-
    and-end-all of Oracle.
    Wrong.
    > they do not have to. Your boss will not blame you for not using something
    > he himself does not even know that exists.
    Your boss will never blame you for anything technical. It has *nothing*
    to do with the relative value of OCP or any other technical
    "certification".
    And if he/she thinks that it's good value to send you on a 9i OCP to
    learn the specifics of 9i instead of just putting you through one of
    Oracle's "Differences" courses...

    --
    Cheers
    Nuno Souto
    [email]nsoutooptusnet.com.au.nosp[/email]am
    Nuno Souto Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:27:32 GMT, "Joe" <emailhotmail.com> wrote:
    >Honestly, many sites just upgrade their Oracle version for supporting
    >purpose. They never pay attention to how to take advantage of some new
    >feature they are paying for.

    Most third party sw (originally developed for sqlserver) doesn't use
    any feature beyond 7.3.4 and still relies on the rule based optimizer.
    So, apart from administrative features as LMT, chances are you are
    never going to use any 8i specific feature.
    If you continue to upgrade though (to 10i) you will get a very
    unpleasant surprise as RBO is now gone.
    We are administering many sites that have upgraded to 8.1.7, just
    because we forced them to, because our policies don't allow
    unsupported software. But 0 new features are being used, unless (LMT
    again) implemented by my firm. This is not because we don't want to
    use new features, but because the third party vendor never certified
    their sw for 8.1.7




    Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA

    To reply remove -verwijderdit from my e-mail address
    Sybrand Bakker Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    Nuno Souto <nsoutooptushome.com.au.nospam> wrote in message news:<3e0bdae7$0$7813$afc38c87news.optusnet.com.a u>...
    > 26 Dec 2002 06:39:15 -0800, michael ngong said (and I quote):
    >
    > > I am not sure what some people expect OCP,s to do.Get in and
    > > solve every problem or answer all questions which are oracle related?
    >
    >
    > Would be fun if for once a few of them could actually get ANY problem
    > solved or one question answered...
    ???One question answered I thought that is what the exam is all about?

    It is interesting to note that the OCP,s you know cannnot turn on
    archiving . I am not trying to back any one here but there could be
    students of yours who will be found wanting once you deviate the
    least from the curriculum so why do you expect OCP,s to be different.
    You still have a right to take your stand
    >
    >
    > > Just like other diplomas and every work of life, some people come out
    > > without a lot to offer while others come out with the feel of some
    > > one who has been working for a while.
    >
    >
    > So because the "other walks of life" are blatantly wrong, we should
    > perpetuate the same mistake with OCP?
    OCP should be the exception to life Right?Just as it is not possible
    to correct other works of life I would think it is not possible to
    correct OCP,s
    >
    >
    > > But the bottom line is you know at least
    > > on a theoretical bases ( assuming
    > > you read books exclusively in preparation for the tests )some very
    > > useful information about Oracle.
    >
    >
    > No you don't. The OCP is an exam with multiple choice answers, mostly
    > unrelated to any real life situations. Many of the questions are more
    > related to you knowing the marketing flavour of the month (release)
    > rather than you knowing anything about databases. You know jack about
    > running a real installation after completing it. The whole thing is
    > bogus, always was, always will be.

    Have you written any exam?I had a while ago and do not remember any
    questions on version, may be things have changed with the years
    (cannot say).

    Did you compare OCP exam to board exams somewhere?That seems a little
    out of line comparism .I am sure Oracle will accept recommendations
    for the exam but the comparism at least IMHO is a not a good one
    I cannot guarantee but you still produce students who are wanting once
    you step on anything the least deviant from your curriculum.Once more
    OCP should not be expected to be an exception
    >
    >
    > > "Worthless" therefore is not the proper word
    >
    > It is an appropriate word. The only organisation for which it is not
    > worthless is Oracle and the multiple "examiners" who have made a motza
    > out of something that is fundamentally flawed and was never asked for by
    > the user community.

    Once more as much as OCP is far from ideal, it could enjoy a lot of
    improvement but it is not "worthless"
    My opnion
    Michael Tubuo Ngong(DBA)
    michael ngong Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    > In an ideal world, perhaps.
    >
    > OK, I'll fez up. I'm doing the OCP (DBA) and have a couple of exams to go.
    >
    > It has the following value:
    >
    > - #$%! personel departments (or whatever huggy-bunny name they are giving
    > themselves these days) are dumb animals. When organisations (esp. guvmint) are
    > recruiting, they go through HR and HR go to the recruitment manual (written by a
    > committee of dumb animals) which says; degree, OPC, pick a meaningless
    > qualification. As these are the people that will do the first scruitiny on an
    > application / resume, these are the qualifications that get you to the people
    > who have a clue. I wouldn't expect the clued-up to make much of my OCP but at
    > least I get a chance of showing them my experience. The OCP gets me in front of
    > the people I want to talk to.
    I think the buzz word here is "Companies that are serious about their
    database". "guvmint" as you put it, and some big corporations are
    nothing but big bureacracies. They are more into "filling" a position
    according to some set criteria rather then actually seeing what
    skillsets are required for a particular job. e.g. Could FedEx live
    with a few hours downtime where customers cannot track their packages?
    I guess not.
    >
    > - I'm not a DBA and have no real ambitions to be one. I do, however, develop
    > data warehouses and performance is right up there. The OCP at least gives me a
    > common vocabulary with the DBAs I'm working with and some insight into what they
    > do and their concerns. Perhaps experience should give me all that but it is not
    > always the case. It would depend on specific individual experience. The OCP
    > makes me better at my job.
    Oracle database is like a 2 year old child. Sometimes unpredictable
    and requires constant attention. Just like a parent cannot become a
    "Good parent" by just reading Dr. Spock's books, a DBA cannot become a
    good DBA just by reading thru an exam cram and passing an exam. You
    have to touch it and feel it and learn it's intricacies.
    >
    > In conclusion, the OCP is about money. My money. As far as I'm concerned, the
    > 'people worth working for' are the ones who are going to pay me well regardless
    > of how they are set up or their attitude towards formal qualifications.
    >
    This attitude by techies and companies that hire them is saturating
    the market with candidates that have all sort's of engravings on their
    resumes but not much else.
    > As for a newcommer, I reckon it's a pretty good starting point. The OCP gives a
    > good broad basic understanding of how Oracle works and is not a bad
    > pre-requisite to getting down and dirty with the docs, lurking here, running
    > google searches and, of course, playing with the engine.
    Yes it does give you theoretic broad perspective but you have to back
    it up with some practical knowledge.


    Regards
    /Rauf Sarwar
    Rauf Sarwar Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    Sybrand Bakker wrote:
    > On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:27:32 GMT, "Joe" <emailhotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Honestly, many sites just upgrade their Oracle version for supporting
    >>purpose. They never pay attention to how to take advantage of some new
    >>feature they are paying for.
    >
    >
    >
    > Most third party sw (originally developed for sqlserver) doesn't use
    > any feature beyond 7.3.4 and still relies on the rule based optimizer.
    > So, apart from administrative features as LMT, chances are you are
    > never going to use any 8i specific feature.
    > If you continue to upgrade though (to 10i) you will get a very
    > unpleasant surprise as RBO is now gone.
    > We are administering many sites that have upgraded to 8.1.7, just
    > because we forced them to, because our policies don't allow
    > unsupported software. But 0 new features are being used, unless (LMT
    > again) implemented by my firm. This is not because we don't want to
    > use new features, but because the third party vendor never certified
    > their sw for 8.1.7
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA
    >
    > To reply remove -verwijderdit from my e-mail address
    It's not just about features directly used by your application. Oracle8i
    (and newer) have several features your DBA will love and your users even
    more (such as online table reorg and automatic rollback management in
    Oracle 9i).

    I understand application vendors want to build on a stable platform, but
    when I worked for a software house we made a constant effort to keep up
    with newer versions, being at most two years "late" to the punch.

    My 2 cents, anyway. Guess a bit off-topic though.

    Wanderley M Ceschim Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    27 Dec 2002 08:15:19 -0800, michael ngong said (and I quote):
    >
    > It is interesting to note that the OCP,s you know cannnot turn on
    > archiving .
    Er? Where did I say that?
    > I am not trying to back any one here but there could be
    > students of yours who will be found wanting once you deviate the
    > least from the curriculum so why do you expect OCP,s to be different.
    There is no such thing as a "student of mine". I think you got me
    confused with someone else?
    >
    > OCP should be the exception to life Right?Just as it is not possible
    > to correct other works of life I would think it is not possible to
    > correct OCP,s
    Good. Let's scrap the thing then. I think that's what Oracle is
    starting to do with this measure.
    > I cannot guarantee but you still produce students who are wanting once
    > you step on anything the least deviant from your curriculum.Once more
    > OCP should not be expected to be an exception
    I do not produce any students. No educational institution here.
    However, I do expect anyone with proper training to be able to read a
    manual and be able to deduce from basic principles acquired while
    studying what the heck is that manual all about. I see none of the sort
    in any1 with just OCP training.


    --
    Cheers
    Nuno Souto
    [email]nsoutooptusnet.com.au.nosp[/email]am
    Nuno Souto Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    "DA Morgan" <damorganexesolutions.com> wrote in message
    news:3E0B2B1F.34949FD3exesolutions.com...
    > Exactly. Just like the Microsoft exams. People that pass the exams can't
    > necessarily do the job. And people that can do the job can't necessarily
    pass
    > the exams (because too often the official answers are wrong or not
    mutually
    > exclusive or test complete irrelevancies).
    I disagree, I would expect anyone who can do the job to be able to pass the
    exams (with some sensible study). It isn't rocket science. Your first
    comment is of course spot on.


    --
    Niall Litchfield
    Oracle DBA
    Audit Commission UK
    *****************************************
    Please include version and platform
    and SQL where applicable
    It makes life easier and increases the
    likelihood of a good answer
    ******************************************


    Niall Litchfield Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    "Don Burleson" <donburleson.cc> wrote in message
    news:998d28f7.0212250820.5cc2fb6posting.google.co m...
    > Greetings,
    >
    > I have heard a rumor that the Oracle9i OCP SQL exam is unproctored:
    >
    > "The new exam is un-proctored, meaning that you can take the exam
    > unsupervised at your own location. If you do not have good internet
    > access, proctored exams are delivered in a secure testing environment,
    > at an Oracle University Training Center or Authorized Prometric
    > Testing Center."
    >
    > Because there is no guarantee that the person taking the exam is the
    > same person who registered for the exam, many DBAs feel that this
    > practice degrades the value of Oracle certification, and makes it even
    > more worthless than before.
    >
    > Comments?
    I see you don't have that many helpful answers - though a good discussion
    has resulted.

    Where did you get the quote above? From Oracle or some internet source?

    If true then it clearly does devalue the exam. I'm not sure that it devalues
    the certification - I can't imagine that the failure rate for SQL was all
    that high in the first place.


    --
    Niall Litchfield
    Oracle DBA
    Audit Commission UK
    *****************************************
    Please include version and platform
    and SQL where applicable
    It makes life easier and increases the
    likelihood of a good answer
    ******************************************


    Niall Litchfield Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    Niall Litchfield wrote:
    >
    > "DA Morgan" <damorganexesolutions.com> wrote in message
    > news:3E0B2B1F.34949FD3exesolutions.com...
    > > Exactly. Just like the Microsoft exams. People that pass the exams can't
    > > necessarily do the job. And people that can do the job can't necessarily
    > pass
    > > the exams (because too often the official answers are wrong or not
    > mutually
    > > exclusive or test complete irrelevancies).
    >
    > I disagree, I would expect anyone who can do the job to be able to pass the
    > exams (with some sensible study). It isn't rocket science. Your first
    > comment is of course spot on.
    >
    > --
    > Niall Litchfield
    > Oracle DBA
    > Audit Commission UK
    > *****************************************
    > Please include version and platform
    > and SQL where applicable
    > It makes life easier and increases the
    > likelihood of a good answer
    > ******************************************
    True story from newsgroup:

    "What does rownum mean?
    Signed John Doe OCP 7,8,8i"

    Hmmmmmmmmmm
    Connor McDonald Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    Yes, it is unproctored. I've taken it and it is done over the internet, with
    no checking of identity or whether you 'cheat' or not.

    However - it's only one of four exams, and you won't pass the others if you
    had to cheat on the first. As just one of four exams, just passing this
    won't get you anywhere, and it's probably just a marketing ploy by Oracle to
    get you to take the first of the exams, in an easy environment, with the
    hope being that you'll then go on to do the rest of them.

    What's potentially more interesting about the 9i DBA OCP is that you now
    have to take at least one Oracle University course (9i SQL, DBA Fundamentals
    I and II, Tuning etc) to qualify for the OCP. This will no doubt be a nice
    earner for Oracle.

    Mark Rittman

    [url]http://www.rittman.org[/url]


    "Don Burleson" <donburleson.cc> wrote in message
    news:998d28f7.0212250820.5cc2fb6posting.google.co m...
    > Greetings,
    >
    > I have heard a rumor that the Oracle9i OCP SQL exam is unproctored:
    >
    > "The new exam is un-proctored, meaning that you can take the exam
    > unsupervised at your own location. If you do not have good internet
    > access, proctored exams are delivered in a secure testing environment,
    > at an Oracle University Training Center or Authorized Prometric
    > Testing Center."
    >
    > Because there is no guarantee that the person taking the exam is the
    > same person who registered for the exam, many DBAs feel that this
    > practice degrades the value of Oracle certification, and makes it even
    > more worthless than before.
    >
    > Comments?

    Mark Rittman Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    DA Morgan <damorganexesolutions.com> wrote in message news:<3E0B2C23.7257344Bexesolutions.com>...
    > michael ngong wrote:
    >
    > > I do not think OCP is as "worthless" as some of our respected
    > > contributors in this forum are trying to paint it.
    > > I am not sure what some people expect OCP,s to do.Get in and
    > > solve every problem or answer all questions which are oracle related?
    > > Just like other diplomas and every work of life, some people come out
    > > without a lot to offer while others come out with the feel of some
    > > one who has been working for a while.Some need a lot of training but
    > > others seem to be ready to go.But the bottom line is you know at least
    > > on a theoretical bases ( assuming
    > > you read books exclusively in preparation for the tests )some very
    > > useful information about Oracle.
    > > "Worthless" therefore is not the proper word
    > > Michael Tubuo Ngong
    >
    > I expect the OCP to be the equivalent in Oracle to the medical exam taken
    > by a physician or the State Bar exam taken by attorney's or the pharmacy
    > board exams taken by pharmacists. I expect them to be capable of
    > distinguishing between those with book knowledge (no actual or practical
    > experience) and those that can actually do that job.
    >
    > From that standpoint the OCP doesn't cut it. After you graduate from a
    > university you an employer can phone the university and verify you
    > attended and your graduation. Call Oracle after you pass the OCP and try
    > to verify that they've ever heard your name before.
    So how about "Oracle Masters?" Making lemonade out of the OCP lemon,
    or big revenue stream for Oracle?
    >
    > And the above is why, at the University of Washington, our curriculum is
    > intentionally not basedon the OCP but rather is based on actual
    > application development using applications built for AT&T and Boeing as
    > models. We want our students to be able to do the work ... not just
    > answer multiple choice questions about obscure things that no-one
    > actually uses or does.
    So you are a mill... just like the course I took in '80, feeding COBOL
    clones to the aircraft industry. Fortunately I jumped at the
    opportunity to do online work with databases (relational within a few
    months) and didn't actually deal with that stick-in-the-mud industry
    for nearly two decades - even now Oracle is relatively new in some
    places (or worse, stuff from the COBOL era grafted on to Oracle).
    They _need_ OCP style certs that work.
    >
    > Daniel Morgan
    jg
    --
    home is bogus. "New claims for unemployment benefits fell last week
    by the largest number in more than a year... The four-week moving
    average, which smooths out weekly fluctuations... the highest level
    since the week that ended Oct. 19." - AP story.
    Joel Garry Guest

  19. #19

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    Nuno Souto <nsoutooptushome.com.au.nospam> writes:
    > I do not produce any students. No educational institution here.
    > However, I do expect anyone with proper training to be able to read a
    > manual and be able to deduce from basic principles acquired while
    > studying what the heck is that manual all about. I see none of the sort
    > in any1 with just OCP training.
    >
    while personally, I don't have any opinion on the worth of OCP in
    itself, there is one way in which I do think it is useful. I've only
    been working with Oracle (as a developer) for about 18 months. We have
    1 DBA. One complaint he has is he does not have enough time to learn
    about and get up to speed with respect to new features etc in later
    versions of Oracle. this has been further complicated by the fact he
    was out of the DBA business for some time and because we have been
    replacing 3 of our major systems with new ones, so things have been
    very very flat out for the last 12 months.

    He has managed to get an agreement from management that part of my
    time will now be devoted to DBA training and that time is to be
    allocated for both of us to study for and sit for the OCP exams. To
    me, this is probably the biggest advantage of getting OCP status - the
    employer providing the time to learn and experiment with new
    features and at the end, they will "feel" they have got something
    more. While I do believe as professionals it is our responsibility to
    keep current in our own time, it is nice to have support from your
    employer in providing time to do this, if for no other reason than it
    gets you to your end goal faster.

    However, the bottom line is that there is no piece of paper which can
    replace experience and something like OCP status does not really
    guarantee anything - like any degree or other piece of paper, some of
    those who have it will be good and others will be hopeless.

    Tim
    --
    Tim Cross
    The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
    to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
    really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
    Tim X Guest

  20. #20

    Default Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

    [email]joel-garryhome.com[/email] (Joel Garry) wrote in
    news:91884734.0212281558.4d867ed3posting.google.c om and I quote:

    >
    > Was so asked for by the user community. I recall being in usenet
    > discussions about it. Companies wanted some way to distinguish those
    > who are trained, and dba's wanted to be able to show they were
    > trained.

    The keyword here is "trained". Companies indeed asked for that:
    a way to make sure the people they were employing as
    trained (or contracting as such) were indeed trained.

    We all know of the guys with 5 years "certified training and experience"
    in Forms V4.1, available on the market 6 months before that
    product reached production status...

    That was the real problem. The bogus qualifications of
    "instant experts". Not the pre-existing experienced people.

    OCP has got NOTHING to do with training. It is a certification
    process. Means jack about prior training and the quality of such.

    In fact it means jack, period. What exactly does OCP buy anyone
    hiring one? Is an OCP a DBA? Is it a development expert?
    Is it a design expert?
    Or is it indeed as bogus as it gets? I know which one I'd pick...

    No, OCP in its current format was never asked for by the user community.

    What Oracle provided with OCP was a way for them to make $$$
    out of a real customer need. Never mind if it actually
    satisfied it. And of course it didn't go unnoticed that
    Oracle was getting into the services arena at the time and
    "implicitly" all their consultants would be "certified"
    (as opposed to the "great unwashed")...

    Never mind that indeed most of their "consultants" had never
    even touched a database, let alone be trained on anything!
    Cripes, the place had such a turnaround back then there was barely
    enough time to train anyone before they got out on their
    own and formed their own corporation...

    It would have been much, much simpler and more reliable if
    Oracle had instituted a certification program for those that
    PROVIDED education on their products. There were quite a
    few "doubtfull" ones. And I use the term losely.

    > I was a bit cantankerous about the details, arguing that the
    > tests seemed to be skewed against the more experienced, and am still a
    > bit surprised that the process turned out so much worse than I
    > predicted.
    >
    The process should never have taken place. It provided
    zero value to the user community.

    The day Oracle defines EXACTLY what does OCP mean and what does
    it EXACTLY qualify anyone as is the day the darn thing will
    deserve any respect.
    As a user, I want to know what I can use an OCP as.
    A developer? A designer? A mentor? An architect (heaven forbid!)
    A DBA? What the heck does it really mean and what am I getting
    for my money when I hire one?

    Until then it is simply a shameless money-grabbing scheme.

    --
    Cheers
    Nuno Souto
    [email]nsoutooptusnet.com.au.nosp[/email]am
    Sloptus Guest

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