Overprinting spot color blend separation problem

[MDD867]

Hi,

I'm trying to print separations from a file that contains a
"gradient-looking" blend made from PMS Black to PMS silver.

The black PMS color is set to overprint. The black-silver blend is on top of
a silver background. The blend contains 256 steps.

When I print the separations to a .ps file and distill it with Distiller 6,
There is no silver under the black color. What to do?

Pre-press gurus please help me...

Setup: FH Mxa, OS X 10.3, Distiller 6

..MDD867

[Odysseus]

MDD867 wrote:

>
> I'm trying to print separations from a file that contains a
> "gradient-looking" blend made from PMS Black to PMS silver.
>
> The black PMS color is set to overprint. The black-silver blend is on top of
> a silver background. The blend contains 256 steps.
>
> When I print the separations to a .ps file and distill it with Distiller 6,
> There is no silver under the black color. What to do?
>
> Pre-press gurus please help me...
>
> Setup: FH Mxa, OS X 10.3, Distiller 6
>

I'm still on FH8 under OS9, so something may have changed, but I
believe you need to set the gradient fill itself to overprint --
AFAICT a multi-coloured gradient won't honour the ink-level overprint
settings from the Print dialog.

BTW, I didn't see your question on Macromedia's server, so many of the
regulars here, including the MM staff, won't have either. In order to
reach the largest potential audience I recommend that you post through
forums.macromedia.com instead of your usual news server.

--
Odysseus

[MDD867 webforumsuser@macromedia.com]

Hi,

I'm trying to print separations from a file that contains a
blend made from PMS Black to PMS silver.

The black PMS color is set to overprint. The black-silver blend is on top of
a silver background. The blend contains 256 steps.

When I print the separations to a .ps file and distill it with Distiller 6,
There is no silver under the black color. What to do?

Pre-press gurus please help me...

Setup: FH Mxa, OS X 10.3, Distiller 6

..MDD867

[Judy Arndt]

Looks like a serious bug to me. Overprint is not happening for gradients or
blends set to overprint. Solid fills are overprinting correctly.

Setting the black ink to overprint in the Print Setup doesn't help. :-(

CMYK gradients and blends are not overprinting either!

I strongly urge you to report this immediately to the Macromedia Bug Report
Form:

[url]http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/?6213=10[/url]

Judy Arndt

--
FHMXA, Mac G4, OS 10.3.2, Acrobat 6 Pro/Distiller 6.


MDD867 wrote:

> I'm trying to print separations from a file that contains a
> blend made from PMS Black to PMS silver.
>
> The black PMS color is set to overprint. The black-silver blend is on top of
> a silver background. The blend contains 256 steps.
>
> When I print the separations to a .ps file and distill it with Distiller 6,
> There is no silver under the black color. What to do?
>
> Pre-press gurus please help me...
>
> Setup: FH Mxa, OS X 10.3, Distiller 6

[davecc webforumsuser@macromedia.com]

MDD867,

Try making separate layers for each colour and on the silver layer remove the black manually before printing.

David

[MDD867 webforumsuser@macromedia.com]

MDD867,

Try making separate layers for each colour and on the silver layer remove the black manually before printing.

David

Thanks for the tip, but I'm trying to find a little bit more sophisticated solution to the problem... ;) I'm working on a package design project with a dozen different packages with lots of details... They all have this same troublesome blend. Manual separations are out of question. (And I'm not even the person who eventually prints the separations)

InDesign separates files like the one I described beautifully, and even displays overprinting properly on screen... sigh. But no time to remake everything from scratch in InDesign. :(

Btw, I submitted this bug to Macromedia.

..MDD867

[Judy Arndt]

Try making the blend from PMS Black to 1% Tint of PMS Black. It will look
awful on screen but will overprint the silver correctly.

You might be able to use Find & Replace Graphics to find Overprint objects
and then Silver fills from within that selection.

Judy Arndt

MDD867 wrote:

> MDD867,
>
> Try making separate layers for each colour and on the silver layer remove the
> black manually before printing.
>
> David
>
> Thanks for the tip, but I'm trying to find a little bit more sophisticated
> solution to the problem... ;) I'm working on a package design project with a
> dozen different packages with lots of details... They all have this same
> troublesome blend. Manual separations are out of question. (And I'm not even
> the person who eventually prints the separations)
>
> InDesign separates files like the one I described beautifully, and even
> displays overprinting properly on screen... sigh. But no time to remake
> everything from scratch in InDesign. :(
>
> Btw, I submitted this bug to Macromedia.
>
> .MDD867
>
>
>
>

[James E. Talmage]

This problem is not new, guys. We've had conversations in this newsgroup
about this, and if memory serves MM people participated who seemed to think
it normal for the underlying color to knock out when the fill is clearly set
to overprint, because "but the blend at one end doesn't have a component of
the color at the other end" or some such.

Actually, (again, as I recall), I think the problem is sort of
"intermittent" in FH 9 and FH8. Sometimes you get lucky (depends upon the
colors involved) and a grad fill actually does overprint. Other times, it
overprints only some seps of what is underneath. Has always been too hit &
miss for me to rely upon it for real work.

It remains my argument that a fill set to overprint should NOT knock out
what's beneath it, and that goes for grads; no matter of the fact that the
screen cannot always display the printed result.

JET

[Judy Arndt]

JET,

I have some sort of (possibly misplaced) faith that everything that used to
be wrong with FH years ago must surely have been fixed by now.

We really need you around here. I found this post from you from 2000 on the
subject of spot blends not overprinting as expected. The info applies as
well today as it did then.

JET writes:
""Warning, Will Robinson! Overprinting gradient fills will not overprint
component colors!" or something like that. There isn't one. That's why I
tell everyone that FH doesn't overprint blends."

See the full post at:
[url]http://tinyurl.com/2j3ze[/url]

Judy Arndt


James E. Talmage wrote:

> This problem is not new, guys. We've had conversations in this newsgroup
> about this, and if memory serves MM people participated who seemed to think
> it normal for the underlying color to knock out when the fill is clearly set
> to overprint, because "but the blend at one end doesn't have a component of
> the color at the other end" or some such.
>
> Actually, (again, as I recall), I think the problem is sort of
> "intermittent" in FH 9 and FH8. Sometimes you get lucky (depends upon the
> colors involved) and a grad fill actually does overprint. Other times, it
> overprints only some seps of what is underneath. Has always been too hit &
> miss for me to rely upon it for real work.
>
> It remains my argument that a fill set to overprint should NOT knock out
> what's beneath it, and that goes for grads; no matter of the fact that the
> screen cannot always display the printed result.
>
> JET
>
>

[James E. Talmage]

> I have some sort of (possibly misplaced) faith that everything that used
to

> be wrong with FH years ago must surely have been fixed by now...

> We really need you around here. I found this post from you from 2000...

*Possibly* misplaced? While referencing a long-winded and tedious post from
over 3 years ago? It takes alot of uncompensated time and effort for things
to sink into my thick skull, but I finally realized that beating said
appendage against similar ones affixed to graphics software marketers is,
more often than not, a fruitless waste of perfectly good motorcycle time.

;-)

Blowing the dust off that ancient post, it comes to mind that somewhere
during that 3+ years, InDesign quietly acquired the ability to mix spot
colors in a swatch, and AI acquired the ability to grad between spot colors
(formerly a FH-first advantage; now another dropped ball).

And in fairness, both programs share FH's misinterpretation (I still insist
that's what it is) of "overprint." Both InD and AI will reliably overprint
an underlying process object with both components of a spot-to-spot grad.
But if the underlying object is filled with one of the grad's component spot
colors, the underlying object is knocked out. (I have not checked this in
XPress, because that is one program I have pretty much abandonded in my move
from Mac OS to XP.)

Is this due to a misunderstanding of "overprint" pandemic among graphics
software programmers? Or is it an consequence of something built into the
PostScript specification itself?

Of course, I don't know. Regardless, I still insist it ought to be fixed.
But rather than holding my breath today, there's this little-traveled twisty
part of highway 42 near here....

;-)

JET

[Tim Hines]

JET you are a different man from 3 years ago. I want to say you have
experienced the peace of a man who stopped caring. :)

But that sounds so cynical. Let's just say that resignation is not
always a bad thing.

You'll probably live longer for it.

James E. Talmage wrote:
<snip>

>a fruitless waste of perfectly good motorcycle time.
>
> ;-)
>

<snip>

> But rather than holding my breath today, there's this little-traveled twisty
> part of highway 42 near here....
>