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Panther problems - Mac Programming

Hi group, I got convinced to give Panther/XCode a second try. The first one I gave it on the beginning, was only to realise that it was "not ready for the prime time". The number of small (and bigger) annoyances was simiply too high, not to mention that Jag devtools stopped working there. Now I waited until the second revision, hoping this will give enough time to make Panther mature enough but... It seems that some of the annoying bugs are still there happily living inside even after two upgrades plus some new ones found its way in. Well, some ...

  1. #1

    Default Panther problems

    Hi group,

    I got convinced to give Panther/XCode a second try. The first one I gave
    it on the beginning, was only to realise that it was "not ready for the
    prime time". The number of small (and bigger) annoyances was simiply too
    high, not to mention that Jag devtools stopped working there. Now I
    waited until the second revision, hoping this will give enough time to
    make Panther mature enough but...

    It seems that some of the annoying bugs are still there happily living
    inside even after two upgrades plus some new ones found its way in.
    Well, some are out for sure too ;-)

    The machine in question is a TiBook G4/1MHz/DVI

    First: has anyone found a way around the impersistent root account
    enabling?? It seems that 10.3.2 still has the old problem of the root
    account being enabled in the netinfmgr only for the single session!
    Actually (I know it already), the root account is enabled afterwards too
    but neither netinfo manager, nor the login window recognises this fact.
    Any clues to that?

    Second: There seems to be something ed in the user accounts
    management... Loading the "accounts" preferencepane takes very long time
    and even after that it does not show more than only one account, namely
    the current one, while still having some parts greyed out. For example i
    can't change my "short name" even being the administrator" and leaving
    the accounts prefpane also doesn't work as expected. One can press "Show
    All" and... wait. Probably forever but I never had enough patience to
    wait _that_ long... ;-)

    Any help on those would be highly appreciated.

    I will still have to take some time to get on XCode though...
    silverdr Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Panther problems

    silverdr <remove.it.pl> writes:

    I have the root account enabled and it seems to be persistent across
    reboots. It's not necessary, though, with sudo from the command line
    giving the administrative user all the power they need.
     

    Hmmm. The prefpane loaded in less than 10 seconds on my computer
    (iMac Rev B, 233 mHz, 4GB). I can't change the shortname from System
    Preferences -> Users either, I suspect this has to be done in NetInfo
    Manager.

    Apple has deliberately tried to make root access through the GUI
    difficult, so that users don't become lusers. :-D You can't change
    anything at the system level without the password for the
    administrative account.
     

    The previous developer tools seem to be broken after upgrading,
    unfortunately. You need to install not only XCode 1.0 that comes with
    Panther, but also the 1.1 update to get everything fixed. gcc3.3 was
    broken on my machine until 1.1.
    Tim Guest

  3. #3

    Default Jaguar <-> Panther user mgmt incompatibility

    Huh, seems like I am making a flood here today... :-(

    silverdr wrote:
    [...]
     
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Hmmm. The prefpane loaded in less than 10 seconds on my computer
    >> (iMac Rev B, 233 mHz, 4GB). I can't change the shortname from System
    >> Preferences -> Users either, I suspect this has to be done in NetInfo
    >> Manager.
    >>[/ref]
    >
    > I just think I have a suspicion about it. I have to check one thing.
    > Will come back later.
    >[/ref]

    Bingo! I have an (almost virtual) user for PostgreSQL database
    management. I didn't want him to show up in the LoginWindow, thus (after
    asking for advice here) I removed his "realname" property from the
    netinfo. It did the trick and both the user no longer showed up in the
    LoginWindow and the Jaguar's user mangament continued to work properly.
    Now, under Panther it brought all the problems with the "Accounts" prefpane.



    Therefore again: does anyone know how to make a user invisible in the
    LoginWindow under Panther so as not to interfere with Panther's user mgmt?
    silverdr Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Jaguar <-> Panther user mgmt incompatibility

    silverdr <remove.it.pl> writes:
     

    Well, I've got no answer per se, but I'm puzzled. I've got a www
    user, a mysql user, etc., and none of them show up in the login
    screen. Of course, I didn't personally create any of those users,
    they are created by the system running the configuration files at
    boot. Did you create the PostgreSQL user by hand in NetInfo Manager?
    Tim Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Jaguar <-> Panther user mgmt incompatibility

    Entity Tim McNamara spoke thus:
     
    Just a guess, but mysql user here is user AND group, and groups don't show
    in the login window.
    Is your mysql home folder set to /var/empty ? Maybe depriving it of a home
    folder will suppress the login.

    --Gnarlie

    Gnarlodious Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Jaguar <-> Panther user mgmt incompatibility

    On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, silverdr wrote:
     
    I seem to recall reading that uids <500 aren't shown by login window, but
    i could be wrong. Might be worth trying.

    Fred

    Frederick Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Jaguar <-> Panther user mgmt incompatibility

    Gnarlodious <invalid.> writes:
     
    >
    > Just a guess, but mysql user here is user AND group, and groups
    > don't show in the login window. Is your mysql home folder set to
    > /var/empty ? Maybe depriving it of a home folder will suppress the
    > login.[/ref]

    Well, let me take a gander at my users in NetInfo Manager:

    user uid home

    cyrus 77 /var/imap
    daemon 1 /var/root
    eppc 71 /var/empty
    lp 26 /var/spool/cups
    mailman 78 /var/empty
    mysql 74 /dev/null
    nobody -2 /dev/null
    postfix 27 /var/spool/postfix
    qtts 76 /var/empty
    smmsp 25 /private/etc/mail
    sshd 75 /var/empty
    unknown 99 /dev/null
    www 70 /Library/Webserver

    None of these users have passwords, as far as I can tell, and perhaps
    that's why they don't appear in the login screen. Logging in as one
    of these users fails. root has a password and can be logged into via
    the login screen with its own password. The only account with a uid
    <500 is my user account.
    Tim Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Jaguar <-> Panther user mgmt incompatibility

    Tim McNamara wrote:
     
    >
    >
    > Well, I've got no answer per se, but I'm puzzled. I've got a www
    > user, a mysql user, etc., and none of them show up in the login
    > screen.[/ref]

    That's the point. I want my "postgres" user not to show up there.
     

    Yes. I did it so (according to the instructions). And I want all the
    capabilities of this user without him being displayed in the login
    window... Removing "realname" worked perfectly for Jag while it confuses
    Panther's "Accounts". Thus there must be something, which distinguishes
    "www", "nobody", "operator" etc. from my "postgres" user. Of course I
    can see the differences in the netinfo but wouldn't want to check all
    the differences one-by-one.
    silverdr Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Jaguar <-> Panther user mgmt incompatibility

    Talking to myself... ;-)

    silverdr wrote:

    [...]
     
    >
    >
    > Yes. I did it so (according to the instructions).[/ref]

    I did it not in the NetInfo but in the appropriate prefpane on Jaguar
     
    silverdr Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Panther problems

    In article <4001923e$inet.com.pl>, silverdr
    <remove.it.pl> wrote:
     

    Why do you need the root account anyhow? You can do everything you
    need to do with either sudo, or sudo -s (which gives you a root shell).

    Wade
    Wade Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Panther problems

    Wade Williams wrote: 
    >
    >
    > Why do you need the root account anyhow? You can do everything you
    > need to do with either sudo, or sudo -s (which gives you a root shell).
    >[/ref]

    Please, I don't want to get into discussion wether it is needed or not.
    Let's just assume it is sometimes needed for me (and I used it whenever
    I wanted on Jaguar) and it would be very nice if it worked as expected
    on Pather.

    I deal with unixalikes for ages and I am perfectly aware of what I can
    do with su, sudo and suid. Let's not discuss this but rather try to find
    a solution or workaround to this bug.
    silverdr Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: Panther problems

     [/ref]


    I've not seen a "fix" for this yet (and my guess is there won't be a
    fix), but there was a post in the Apple discussion boards that worked
    for us (I don't have the URL any longer...)



    I used this method to fix the "loss" of the root account. Log in with
    the account that has admin rights. Open up Netinfo and authentic. Go to
    the users tab in the browser windows and select the root account.
    Delete the password shown. Save these changes to this domain, then go
    to the Security tab in the menu bar and enable the root account. It may
    or may not be disabled. Change the root password and it should tell you
    it is blank. Enter a new password and it should be good to go. Hope
    this helps


    Posts: 3
    Titanium G4, 1 GHz
    Mac OS X (10.3)
    1GB RAM
    Thanks a million, it helped.
    I just had to add one more step to your protocol. After I changed the
    password of root to "blank", when I went to Security, I had to first
    disable the root user, and then enable it again before I could change
    the password. After enabling the root user, I clicked on "change
    password" and it accepted my new password. If I didn't do this, it kept
    giving me a message that the "password was incorrect".
    Again, thanks



    so, we have had to do that on each machine. "Other" is there after
    Panther updates, but if you *log in* as root, then it's gone again and
    basically has to have the password reset in NetInfo Manager through
    another "admin" account.

    - Steve
    Steve Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: Jaguar <-> Panther user mgmt incompatibility

    silverdr <remove.it.pl> writes:
     [/ref]

    >
    > I did it not in the NetInfo but in the appropriate prefpane on
    > Jaguar[/ref]

    I think that's the source of the problem. You maybe created a
    log-in-abled user rather than a "hidden" user. The thing I see about
    those hidden users on my system is that they do not have passwords.
    One cannot log in as one of those users (e.g., www or mysql).

    Perhaps you can change it in NetInfo? I suspect that the PrefPane
    only expects to be used to create users that can be logged in.
    Removing the password might do the trick (I am speculating here); you
    might be able to do sudo or to su to the user if you need to actually
    be that user for some reason (AFAICT it would not be necessary for
    MySQL; I don't know about PostgreSQL).
    Tim Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: Panther problems

    silverdr <remove.it.pl> writes:
     [/ref]

    >
    > Please, I don't want to get into discussion wether it is needed or
    > not. Let's just assume it is sometimes needed for me (and I used it
    > whenever I wanted on Jaguar) and it would be very nice if it worked
    > as expected on Pather.
    >
    > I deal with unixalikes for ages and I am perfectly aware of what I
    > can do with su, sudo and suid. Let's not discuss this but rather try
    > to find a solution or workaround to this bug.[/ref]

    What are the symptons? Can you not su to root, or login via the
    shell as root? I just checked and I can do both from the CLI. I
    haven't tried to change login via the Aqua GUI yet.

    Under NetInfo Manager -> Security is the root user enabled? Did you
    do Security -> Authenticate... before enabling the root user and then
    save the changes by clicking the lock icon?

    My root user has been enabled since 10.0.4 and has remained
    persistently enabled through multiple upgrades to 10.3.2 with no
    attention on my part. I'm perplexed why your experience is so
    different.
    Tim Guest

  15. #15

    Default further crossposts removed

    P.
    silverdr Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: Panther problems

    In article <4002fb14$inet.com.pl>, silverdr
    <remove.it.pl> wrote:
     

    I realize you say you don't want to discuss why it would be necessary,
    but I'm truly curious now. I wonder what situations would require an
    actual root login under OS X and why I haven't run into them before.

    Can you educate me on when it would be necessary?

    Wade
    Wade Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: Panther problems

    In article <130120041535372388%spam.dogwatchsw.com>,
    Wade Williams <spam.dogwatchsw.com> wrote:
     

    In my previous job we always logged in as root, not because it was
    *necessary* but because it was convienent. We were doing driver
    development, and just about everything required root access (kextload,
    kextunload, writing in /S/L/E). It saved so much time to just run as
    root.
    Sean Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: Panther problems

    In article <120120041219382727%spam.dogwatchsw.com>,
    Wade Williams <spam.dogwatchsw.com> wrote:
     

    I missed the start of this thread, but just to elaborate on my other
    post. It can be convienent to have root access all the time, not just
    in terminal. That way installers, the Finder, etc. do not bug you for
    the password. Of course, this is a tradeoff of time and security, and
    that must be weighed carefully.
    Sean Guest

  19. #19

    Default Re: Panther problems

    In article <aei.ca>, Sean McBride <org> wrote:
     
    >
    > I missed the start of this thread, but just to elaborate on my other
    > post. It can be convienent to have root access all the time, not just
    > in terminal. That way installers, the Finder, etc. do not bug you for
    > the password. Of course, this is a tradeoff of time and security, and
    > that must be weighed carefully.[/ref]

    It's really hard for me to imagine weighing those tradeoffs carefully
    and then deciding that it was worth running as root all the time to
    avoid typing in a password from time to time. You must have a
    really long password or be a really slow typist... :-)

    The problem with this is that not only do installers have free reign
    over every file on your hard drive, but so does every other program
    or script that you launch. I'd prefer that 3rd party apps be installed
    via a *.dmg file and a drag into /Applications just to avoid giving
    root access out willy-nilly...

    But after years of telling folks "don't enable root on OS X", I finally
    decided to try it on my G4/400 w/10.2.

    It's actually pretty nice. :-)

    While I think that routinely running the GUI under root is utter
    foolishness (undermining a lot of protections that Unix provides,
    especially in that it undermines any expectation that the OS that
    you're running today is identical to yesterday's), it was *very*
    nice to be able to move a lot of stuff around using the Finder
    and never getting caught by any of those pesky permission
    gotcha's.

    Even with the ability to override permissions in the Get Info box
    with an admin password, there are still cases in a "shared family
    Mac" environment where one has to know a bit more about Unix than
    one should - for example, to make one of my kid's folders globally
    readable using the GUI, I had to change the ownership to ME, then
    change permissions, then change ownership back to her. Using the
    Finder logged in as root, the Get Info "chmod" simply happens
    directly, saving a couple of non-intuitive "chown"s... (though
    there is no reason that the Get Info box couldn't recognize the
    situation and deal with it for you...)

    So while I think that routinely logging in under root is a very bad
    idea, there are still some times when it makes things significantly
    easier and less complicated to do.

    The whole issue of "friendly family sharing" is one that Apple needs
    to keep working on. Both 10.3 and the new iLife versions make some
    progress in this direction, but more needs to be done. For example,
    I would really like to have the option of a common iPhoto library for
    all users of a system (or a network ;-), with separate albums for
    each user. Likewise, I'd really like all iTunes tunes to go into a
    common library, rather than have them associated with a single user.
    Family data sharing like this should happen without anyone needing
    to monkey with permissions, etc. - it should simply be a preference
    panel option, with shared stuff going to the somewhat underutilized
    /Users/Shared folder hierarchy.

    Oh, and I'd like my Quicktime Pro key to automatically work for all
    users on a given Mac... :-)

    Until Apple gets the multi-user aspects of OSX a little more slick, it
    might actually make sense for someone to log into root under the GUI
    when doing extensive maintenance on a Mac with many users. But I think
    it makes little sense on a single-user Mac, where permissions are almost
    never a significant problem.

    But on Usenet, it appears that the vast majority of people who are
    asking how to enable root want to do so for all the wrong reasons,
    which is why these queries are always met with skepticism...

    --
    Jim Glidewell
    My opinions only
    Jim Guest

  20. #20

    Default Re: Panther problems

    In article <sdc.cs.boeing.com>,
    net (Jim Glidewell) wrote:
     

    But in my case, doing driver development, root permissions are needed
    every 5 minutes, literally.
     

    Agreed.
    Sean Guest

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