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Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe - SCO

In an earlier posting, I alluded to SCO's right to enforce it's license agreement with respect to the libraries that people have apparently copied to Linux systems in order to run SCO (Openserver, I think) binaries on Linux systems. SCO's amended complaint has some language that could be intepreted as referring to IBM encouraging people to copy these libraries without paying the appropriate license fee. If IBM actuaully did this (ie. encouraged people to copy without paying for the license), then I suspect that IBM does have some liability to SCO. Perhaps the original strategy was to spread a lot ...

  1. #1

    Default Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe

    In an earlier posting, I alluded to SCO's right to enforce it's license
    agreement with respect to the libraries that people have apparently
    copied to Linux systems in order to run SCO (Openserver, I think)
    binaries on Linux systems.

    SCO's amended complaint has some language that could be intepreted as
    referring to IBM encouraging people to copy these libraries without
    paying the appropriate license fee.

    If IBM actuaully did this (ie. encouraged people to copy without paying
    for the license), then I suspect that IBM does have some liability to
    SCO.

    Perhaps the original strategy was to spread a lot of FUD about code
    donated to Linux while allowing for the case to eventually hinge on the
    above claim. Perhaps the code that SCO alleges is improperly in Linux
    was always a smokescreen for the much more focussed claim relating to
    IBM's actions relating to people's use of SCO's libraries.

    Perhaps SCO might have hoped to get a hundred million or so based on the
    libraries claim. Unfortunately, IBM seems to have raised the stakes very
    high, so that the case is now all or nothing for SCO.

    The counter problem for SCO is that Amendment X eliminated SCO's right
    to terminate any of IBM's licenses, so IBM probably has strong
    counter-claims relating to SCO's "termination" of the licenses --
    especially when combined with copyright violations of IBM's GPL code.

    Interesting thought? Rational, fact based comments, anyone?
    Joe Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe


    "Joe Dunning" <invalid> wrote in message
    news:k2Llb.5299$.. 

    I went to the SCO Road Show yesterday and was impressed with their plan and
    the way they are getting things back together, just like the old days.
    There will be some impressive improvements and upgrades announced every
    quarter for some time to come. They are also linking up with some great
    vertical market application partners.

    In any case they are running full steam. With 5.0.7 out and now being
    trimmed up a bit, the next release is called, internally, "Legend", but will
    probably come out as OSR 5.0.8 in about a year.

    Of course the subject of the licensing of Intellectual Property came up.
    They weren't allowed to say much, however it would appear that Linux Kernel
    2.2 is clean. It seems that SCO IP shows up in Linux Kernel 2.4.

    Others there, not SCO folks, seemed to be saying that some SCO code was
    lifted from OpenServer and dropped into some Linux Kernels and apparently
    all SCO copyright notices were deleted in the process.

    At the moment it appears that SCO is working with the large companies who
    use Linux with SCO IP embedded in it to negotiate licensing arrangements on
    a no-fault basis.

    SCO has no problem with Berkeley Unix of any flavor.

    SCO bought back the 30% interest held by Microsoft about 4 years ago. That
    was news to me.

    Finally, SCO paid $100 million for UNIX, that is the software, not the trade
    neme itself.

    DAW


    Don Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe


    "Don Williams" <rr.com> wrote in message
    news:Fg4mb.60536$socal.rr.com... 
    That 

    Actually the percentage interest was lower and Microsoft sold their
    investment in late 1999, early 2000. The company formerly called Caldera
    has never had any ownership by Microsoft that I'm aware of.

     
    trade 

    I'm trying to remember what we paid, but it wasn't cash, it was stock. We
    purchased the technology, not the name, since Novell, in an effort to
    separate the technology from the standard, gave the name to The Open Group.
    They have/had a suite to confirm that you're implementation represents the
    UNIX 95/98/?? standard/specifications.

    --
    Jim Sullivan
    Don't plant your bad days, they turn into bad weeks,
    then bad months and before you know it, you've had a bad year.


    Jim Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe

    On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:09:59 -0700, "Jim Sullivan"
    <net> wrote:
     

    6.1 million shares of SCO stock.
    http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/1995/12/pr95274.html
     

    --
    Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
    (831)421-6491 pgr (831)336-2558 home
    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
    santa-cruz.ca.us com
    Jeff Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe


    "Jeff Liebermann" <santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message
    news:com... 
    >
    > 6.1 million shares of SCO stock.
    > http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/1995/12/pr95274.html
    > [/ref]
    Group. [/ref]
    the 
    >
    > --
    > Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
    > (831)421-6491 pgr (831)336-2558 home
    > http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
    > santa-cruz.ca.us com[/ref]

    Interesting press release cited by Jeff.

    It also says that SCO intended to consolidate SCO Open Server and UnixWare
    into a single package, but it would appear that they haven't gone that way.

    As far as Novell is concerned, it's still hard for me to understand where
    they are going. Every Novell installation I have seen (I never installed
    any) comes with a set of doentation that occupies about 5' on a
    bookshelf. Is it really that complex?

    DAW


    Don Guest

  6. Moderated Post

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe

    Removed by Administrator
    Jeff Guest
    Moderated Post

  7. #7

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe


    "Joe Dunning" <invalid> wrote in message
    news:k2Llb.5299$.. 

    If you actually read their court fillings (groklaw is great for that), it is
    plain to see that they don't have a strong case but are in fact playing for
    time trying to profit on artificially high stock prices. Every filling they
    have provided the court has been intentionally worded to draw the process on
    as long as possible without SCO providing any evidence of guilt on IBM's
    part. I wont rehash the entire thing in this forum but www.groklaw.net did
    an excellent job of it. If you don't like their commentary, simply read the
    public fillings and make up your own mind.

    -David


    David Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe

    > As far as Novell is concerned, it's still hard for me to understand where 

    No, it really isn't that complex. Novell is just very good about providing
    docs. Microsoft docs for Windows occupy the same amount of space if you
    bother to buy the resource kit. As for their direction, Novell is looking to
    reinvent itself in the Linux world more as a Novell/Linux hybred, providing
    service software (such as directory services and such) that run on top of a
    standard Linux install. Everything they have done in recent histroy has
    pointed to that goal, and their own people have hinted at it.


    David Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe

    In article <com>, Jim Sullivan
    <net> wrote:
     
     [/ref]
     


    Currently is is Version 3 of the Single UNIX Specification.

    Last updated in August.

    Go to http://www.unix.org for all details.


    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv wjv . com
    Bill Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe

    In article <lp_mb.80197$socal.rr.com>,
    Don Williams <rr.com> wrote: 
    >>
    >> 6.1 million shares of SCO stock.
    >> http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/1995/12/pr95274.html
    >> [/ref]
    >Group. [/ref]
    >the 
    >>
    >> --
    >> Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
    >> (831)421-6491 pgr (831)336-2558 home
    >> http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
    >> santa-cruz.ca.us com[/ref]
    >
    >Interesting press release cited by Jeff.[/ref]
     
     

    A lot of OSes now use CD distributions of doents.. The AIX
    paper docs are about five feet wide the last time I looked.
    Those are the small manuals. The AIX I have in 8.5x11 in paper
    covers about 1.5feet wide.

    The SCO manuals from year ago look to be about 2 feet wide on the
    bookshelf high over this desk.

    My 4.4BSD manual from O'Reilly are printed on fairly thin paper
    so they pilu to about 10" high - have probabably 3000 printed
    pages.



    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv wjv . com
    Bill Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe Reply-To: scomscxenitec.on.ca

    Bill Vermillion enscribed:
    | In article <lp_mb.80197$socal.rr.com>,
    | Don Williams <rr.com> wrote:
    | >
    |
    | >As far as Novell is concerned, it's still hard for me to
    | >understand where they are going. Every Novell installation
    | >I have seen (I never installed any) comes with a set of
    | >doentation that occupies about 5' on a bookshelf. Is it
    | >really that complex?
    |
    | A lot of OSes now use CD distributions of doents.. The AIX
    | paper docs are about five feet wide the last time I looked.
    | Those are the small manuals. The AIX I have in 8.5x11 in paper
    | covers about 1.5feet wide.
    |
    | The SCO manuals from year ago look to be about 2 feet wide on the
    | bookshelf high over this desk.

    A full OpenServer 5.0.0 manual set consumed 1 meter of shelf space with
    a shipping weight of 47 lbs.

    About the same time in history, the shipping weight of a full UnixWare
    manual set was just under 90 lbs. I don't feel like unpacking them
    to measure the shelf space required but one can guess at just under 2 meters.

    --
    ================================================== ========================
    Tom Parsons com
    ================================================== ========================
    Tom Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe Reply-To: scomscxenitec.on.ca

    In article <com>,
    Tom Parsons <com> wrote: 
     
     
     

    Amazing how one little letter can change the meaning. The above
    should have been 'from years ago' years not year.
     
     

    And I remember the days when you could read the entire manual set.
    I have a set [a 1982 reprint] of the original system 7 manuals in
    blue and green with a Bell logo on the cover. In 8.5"x11" format.
    One - with ALL the commands - is about 1" thick. The other with
    all the tutorials, the original C manual, et al is about 1.5"
    thick.

    The only thing that was a problem with CD manuals was the
    inability to make margin notes, but when IBM released AIX they had
    a sticky post-it-note feature so that anytime you went back to
    that man page the note you previsly made was on the screen. Too
    bad more places don't do that. And if you realy wanted their
    5 feet of paper docs it was $1500.


    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv wjv . com
    Bill Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe

    Joe Dunning wrote:
     

    I was watching when IBM took on Linux, on the S390.

    They were talking about adapting some of the AIX code to Linux, - AIX code,
    mind you, AIX with its reputation of being the least standards-compliant
    Unix branch I've ever heard of - to make it more enterprise-worthy, but I
    can assure you, nothing was ever mentioned about SCO Libraries. I can even
    point you to the MARIST LINUX370 list archives about that - and there was a
    certain amount of controversy going on, let me assure you.

    When you consider that IBM thinks in terms of automated hardware/software
    problem reports, automatic failover, massive data backup redundancies, 64k
    of IO channels independent of the CPU's supervision, etc, and they've been
    the be-all and end-all of this sort of technology for the last thirty or
    more years, you'll understand just why SCO's suit strikes IBMers with
    either disbelief or outrage.

    SCO's OpenServer and UnixWare are just not in the same sort of category as
    VM/ESA and OS/390, or AIX/6000, now I come to think of it - thus for SCO to
    allege at one point that IBM needed SCO's "Intellectual Property" rights to
    make something out of Linux, is insulting, as insulting as it would've been
    for DEC to allege that once AT&T, and Miller etc, had ported Unix 6th Ed to
    other platforms, that since Unix was developed on DEC hardware, DEC owned
    the rights to it, lock, stock and barrel.

    I think SCO's stuck a bl&*(y great big 30mm Gatling Gun up its rectum and
    pulled the trigger, with this lawsuit and the allegations. And I don't
    think there are going to be too many pieces left.

    It would be ideal if IBM got the OpenServer, UnixWare and Unix System V code
    and released as much of it as is legally possible under some Free/Libre
    Open Source Software license, so that the people who've been using and
    consulting with SCO software for the last few decades, can go on doing it,
    but I've got no idea about IBM's plans, and I'm happy to keep it that way.

    Wesley Parish
    --
    First the wife, tone of awe. So much a condition. Kent in the labs, fast
    forward. "So how was the worthlessful businessman?" But they hadn't
    stopped meat for year ago, that arose hotel facade slowly moved apper.
    - Don't let emacs meta-x dissociatedpress write your speeches!
    Wesley Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe Reply-To: scomscxenitec.on.ca

    Tom Parsons wrote:
     
    Just think, if they went to the gym, and had a proper diet, they could
    become All-Star Basketball players!

    Wesley Parish
    --
    First the wife, tone of awe. So much a condition. Kent in the labs, fast
    forward. "So how was the worthlessful businessman?" But they hadn't
    stopped meat for year ago, that arose hotel facade slowly moved apper.
    - Don't let emacs meta-x dissociatedpress write your speeches!
    Wesley Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe

    In article <bVJsb.6855$tsnz.net>,
    Wesley Parish <wesDOROTHYparish paradiseDOROTHYnetDOROTHYnz> wrote: 
     [/ref]
     [/ref]
     [/ref]

    ....
     
     

    A slight drift here. I remember when AIX came out and the all
    hoopla leading up to the release.

    IBM touted it as the best of System V, BSD, Xenix, and a few other
    things. My impression when I first was released was that they
    could not decided which were the best parts so they just included
    it all.

    About the only system I ever say that successfully ran SysV,
    BSD, MS and one other OS - concurrently - were the old Icon/Sanyo
    machines - from the group in SLC when Ransom Love was there before
    he moved to Novell in their Unix acquistion days. But that machine
    isolated everything with 5 processors, lots of cache on each
    processor and no system RAM as we know it today. It was in cache
    or on the HDs.

    Trying to be all things to all people often results in no one being
    happy.


    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv wjv . com
    Bill Guest

  16. #16

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe

    Bill Vermillion wrote:
     
    > [/ref]
    > [/ref]
    > [/ref]
    >
    > ...


    >
    > A slight drift here. I remember when AIX came out and the all
    > hoopla leading up to the release.[/ref]

    Ah! hoopla! IBM's pretty good on the hoopla, aren't they!? Mind you, when
    they realize its their head on the block, they usually justify everything
    with sterling performance and quality - OS/2 comes to mind. I'd like to
    run AIX, but I've never had the money for the big POWER or PowerPC
    machines. 

    I got a similar impression reading "The Magic Garden Explained", and reading
    a lot of Unixish stuff about the time OS/2 came out - System V Release 4
    was to be a combo of everything that people liked about SunOS 4, SVR3,
    Xenix, and 4.3BSD ... with the inevitable result that it pleased nobody
    paricularly well. 

    Mind you, that _does_ sound interesting - a sort of hardware-based Virtual
    Machine. Most VMs are software-based. A Cambridge University, UK,
    research group has just recently published information on their VM called
    Xen. I'm thinking of testing it with the SELinux and vserver developments
    to find out performance, etc, issues. 
    True enough. Unix philosophy comes to mind - a group of small programs each
    doing only one thing, and doing it well, with a common interface.

    Wesley Parish
    --
    First the wife, tone of awe. So much a condition. Kent in the labs, fast
    forward. "So how was the worthlessful businessman?" But they hadn't
    stopped meat for year ago, that arose hotel facade slowly moved apper.
    - Don't let emacs meta-x dissociatedpress write your speeches!
    Wesley Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: Perhaps SCO has a legitimate gripe

    In article <KP1tb.7049$tsnz.net>,
    Wesley Parish <wesDOROTHYparish paradiseDOROTHYnetDOROTHYnz> wrote: 
     [/ref]
     

    I was working as an outside consultant where there were 'wars'
    brewing. One department orders a new Model 80 IBM and he was heard
    to say "I'll never let Xenix [or Unix] be put on my machine".

    Machine came in, and the head of all the departments over-ruled
    that [and the small department head was po-ed to say the least].

    That machine was to be their first AIX on Intel. IBM came in an
    installed it. The new IT person hired [I was doing aps and Xenix
    support] was to the be the new person responsible for that and he
    and I shared the same office. He had a CS degree and this was his
    first job in a computer department after having worked for about a
    year after graduation bagging groceries at a local store.

    The site sent him to Atlanta for a week trainging school and he
    seeme to view that more as party time and took his GF with him.

    A week or so after he came back he was working on the AIX and
    found a bunch of file duplicated - two directories that looked the
    same. So he erased one directory.

    That was the one with all the real files while the other just has
    symlinks pointing to that now missing directory.

    I wound up reinstalling the entire AIX. If you ever had the
    mis-pleasure of installing ODT from floppies - all 50 of them -
    that would be like a picnic in the park comapred to the AIX
    on iNTEL.

    Floppies everywhere - and the load was very very slow. It reminded
    me of the exeptionally slow floppy loads of tht AT&T 3B2 systems -
    they felt like they were reading a byte at a time, but probably
    just doing a single sector.

    So after feeding in-numerable floppies in, it came time for the
    software updates. Whoever wrote that should have been shot.

    You selected the first program to update and you had to feed the
    floppies in, in the correct order, and it searched each one
    to find what it needed >if< it was on the disk. Then you did the
    same for the next. So some of these disk sets were inserted
    a half-dozen or more times, instead of loading all that was needed
    from each disk on one pass.

    That was an 8-hour day of just feeding disks in and out.
    And AIX on a 20Mhz '386 was not the snappiest performer even
    with the BIG 70MB SCSI DISK. [the others had ESDI disks].

    But seeing it run on real machines and seeing experienced people
    run it, I could see many good areas. The SMIT allowing you to
    expand file systems dynamically was good.

    But some of the design was based on the old IBM hardware concept.
    The idea of putting the direcory structure in the middle of the
    disk for fastest average access no matter where the head position
    was a hangover from the floppy days. And this was when the ZBR
    disks were first coming out with fastest transfer on the outermost
    tracks. IBM seems to make big adavances in some areas while being
    firmly rooted to the past in others. Sort of like a new sports car
    with a 15 year old engine.
     [/ref]
     

    So true.
     [/ref]
     

    That Sanyo/Icon came from that Utah high tech area around SLC.
    That's where 3COM started. Novell started. ISTR that's where
    WordPerfect debuted on Data General - before migrating the WP to
    the rest of the platforms.
     [/ref]
     

    But when the small group of programs ever expand in ever increasing
    quantities you begin to wonder where we are headed. Yesterday I
    was looking at file in on sub-directory and wonder what about 1/3
    to 1/2 of them did. There was a time when I knew what all the
    files in a dir did.

    Bill

    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv wjv . com
    Bill Guest

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