# Pics of the moon

• July 18th, 11:54 PM
Pics of the moon
I'm somewhat of a newbie. I have a Minolta XG-1 camera that's about 20 years
old and I LOVE it. Love taking pics with it.... especially since I have 2
kids that are very photogenic.

I did a basic photography course and can pretty much shoot anything in the
daytime or with a flash... as for nightime. I've yet to take a nice pic of
the moon. I always end up with too slow a shudder speed, or no shot at all.

When it comes to matching shudder speeds and arpetures, I get confused. I
know that there is a bit of a system to it. Can someone offer a bit of
advice? Particularly about a good setting to shoot the moon? I've always
wanted a REALLY nice shot of a harvest moon.... Or a moon rise...

• July 19th, 11:18 AM
Brian
Re: Pics of the moon
Contrary to popular belief, you don't need a slow shutter speed to shoot the
moon, in fact you dont even need a tripod, the moon is very bright and is
the main subject of your pic, so use about a 1/250th at F8, bracket 1 stop
either side just for the sake of it, This means using 1/125th at F8 and
1/500th at F8, you can go half a stop either side if you want but that could
be difficult if your camera doesnt do half stops on shutter speed.

Everything in Photography either halves or doubles.

If you gain in one part you must lose in another and vice versa.

These are the standard F-stop numbers used in Photography, every second
number is approximately double. The larger the number the smaller the actual
aperture is.

1.8 2.8 4 5.6 8 11 16 22

F-stop numbers also determine the "Depth of Field", how sharp an image is
going to be and how much of what is in the image is sharp.

For example f 1.8 to f 4 would give a shallow depth of field, making the
image focused on sharp but everything else in the frame fuzzy. Where as f 11
to f 22 would give an extensive depth of field, where almost everything in
the frame was sharp.

Shutter speeds are also set in the same manner as F-stop numbers in that
they are all double of half the number next to it. The 2 exceptions being
1/125 and 1/15, This is just down to the manufacturing process and means
nothing in particular.

1/1000 1/500 1/250 1/125 1/60 1/30 1/15 1/8 ¼ ½ 1sec

As a rule you will find that any shutter speed slower than 1/60 of a second
will require the use of a tripod.

Film speeds are available in a wide range and these also double or halve in
value as with shutter speeds and f-stop numbers. Film speed is measured in
ASA or ISO both are identical and will both appear on the film packaging.
The most common film speeds available are: -

3 6 12 25 50 100 200 400 800 1600 3200 6400

Speeds of 3 to 12 are very slow and give a much less grainy finish speeds of
100 to 200 are medium speeds and speeds of 400 to 6400 are fast usually
giving a much more grainy effect on the finished print, although modern film
production tends to give much less grain at all levels. 400asa/iso is a good
all round film. Normally thgre darker the scene the faster the film speed
shoudl be, this would allow you to use a faster shutter speed and a smaller,
( larger f numbers), apertures

For example if you start with the settings of f2.8 at 1/60 with 100asa film
and you really want to use a shutter speed of 1/500, which is an increase of
3 stops, then you must decrease the aperture by the same amount of stops,
bringing it to f8, The film speed can also be used in the same way to gain
the desired result.

so basically, let the camrea's meter decide what it would use, then change
to the shutter speed you want to use, and adjust the aperture to suit. if
you want to use a faster shutter speed you have to use a larger F number,
but both must be adjusted by the same number of stops, 3 clicks of the
shutter speed dial = 3 clicks of the aperture dial.

Hope this helps
Brian...........................

news:bfa1as\$6bf\$1nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net...
Quote:

> I'm somewhat of a newbie. I have a Minolta XG-1 camera that's about 20
years
Quote:

> old and I LOVE it. Love taking pics with it.... especially since I have 2
> kids that are very photogenic.
>
> I did a basic photography course and can pretty much shoot anything in the
> daytime or with a flash... as for nightime. I've yet to take a nice pic of
> the moon. I always end up with too slow a shudder speed, or no shot at
all.
Quote:

>
> When it comes to matching shudder speeds and arpetures, I get confused. I
> know that there is a bit of a system to it. Can someone offer a bit of
> advice? Particularly about a good setting to shoot the moon? I've always
> wanted a REALLY nice shot of a harvest moon.... Or a moon rise...
>
>
>
>

• July 19th, 02:29 PM
Danny
Re: Pics of the moon
Very nice primer for us newbies out here... Thank you!
Danny

"Brian" <brian5blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8O9Sa.48401\$4c.42832news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Quote:

> Contrary to popular belief, you don't need a slow shutter speed to shoot
the
Quote:

> moon, in fact you dont even need a tripod, the moon is very bright and is
> the main subject of your pic, so use about a 1/250th at F8, bracket 1
stop
Quote:

> either side just for the sake of it, This means using 1/125th at F8 and
> 1/500th at F8, you can go half a stop either side if you want but that
could
Quote:

> be difficult if your camera doesnt do half stops on shutter speed.
>
>
>
>
> Everything in Photography either halves or doubles.
>
> If you gain in one part you must lose in another and vice versa.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> These are the standard F-stop numbers used in Photography, every second
> number is approximately double. The larger the number the smaller the
actual
Quote:

> aperture is.
>
> 1.8 2.8 4 5.6 8 11 16 22
>
>
>
> F-stop numbers also determine the "Depth of Field", how sharp an image is
> going to be and how much of what is in the image is sharp.
>
> For example f 1.8 to f 4 would give a shallow depth of field, making the
> image focused on sharp but everything else in the frame fuzzy. Where as f
11
Quote:

> to f 22 would give an extensive depth of field, where almost everything in
> the frame was sharp.
>
>
>
> Shutter speeds are also set in the same manner as F-stop numbers in that
> they are all double of half the number next to it. The 2 exceptions being
> 1/125 and 1/15, This is just down to the manufacturing process and means
> nothing in particular.
>
>
>
> 1/1000 1/500 1/250 1/125 1/60 1/30 1/15 1/8 ¼ ½ 1sec
>
> As a rule you will find that any shutter speed slower than 1/60 of a
second
Quote:

> will require the use of a tripod.
>
>
>
> Film speeds are available in a wide range and these also double or halve
in
Quote:

> value as with shutter speeds and f-stop numbers. Film speed is measured in
> ASA or ISO both are identical and will both appear on the film packaging.
> The most common film speeds available are: -
>
>
>
> 3 6 12 25 50 100 200 400 800 1600 3200 6400
>
>
>
> Speeds of 3 to 12 are very slow and give a much less grainy finish speeds
of
Quote:

> 100 to 200 are medium speeds and speeds of 400 to 6400 are fast usually
> giving a much more grainy effect on the finished print, although modern
film
Quote:

> production tends to give much less grain at all levels. 400asa/iso is a
good
Quote:

> all round film. Normally thgre darker the scene the faster the film speed
> shoudl be, this would allow you to use a faster shutter speed and a
smaller,
Quote:

> ( larger f numbers), apertures
>
>
>
> For example if you start with the settings of f2.8 at 1/60 with 100asa
film
Quote:

> and you really want to use a shutter speed of 1/500, which is an increase
of
Quote:

> 3 stops, then you must decrease the aperture by the same amount of stops,
> bringing it to f8, The film speed can also be used in the same way to gain
> the desired result.
>
>
> so basically, let the camrea's meter decide what it would use, then change
> to the shutter speed you want to use, and adjust the aperture to suit. if
> you want to use a faster shutter speed you have to use a larger F number,
> but both must be adjusted by the same number of stops, 3 clicks of the
> shutter speed dial = 3 clicks of the aperture dial.
>
>
> Hope this helps
> Brian...........................
>
> (snip)

• July 19th, 02:58 PM
rufref
Re: Pics of the moon
If you are using a telephoto you really should use a tripod. I do not know
what the length of your lens is but basics are: use a shutter speed of
1/250, for iso 25 f/5.6, for iso 50 f/8, for iso 100 f/11 and for iso 400
f/22 and bracket +- in half stops.

--
Tom

[url]http://www.tom-photo.com/[/url]

news:bfa1as\$6bf\$1nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net...
Quote:

> I'm somewhat of a newbie. I have a Minolta XG-1 camera that's about 20
years
Quote:

> old and I LOVE it. Love taking pics with it.... especially since I have 2
> kids that are very photogenic.
>
> I did a basic photography course and can pretty much shoot anything in the
> daytime or with a flash... as for nightime. I've yet to take a nice pic of
> the moon. I always end up with too slow a shudder speed, or no shot at
all.
Quote:

>
> When it comes to matching shudder speeds and arpetures, I get confused. I
> know that there is a bit of a system to it. Can someone offer a bit of
> advice? Particularly about a good setting to shoot the moon? I've always
> wanted a REALLY nice shot of a harvest moon.... Or a moon rise...
>
>
>
>

• July 19th, 08:26 PM
Brian
Re: Pics of the moon
My bad, I should have said that "in theory" you don't need a tripod, but to
avoid camera shake, which will blur your final image. you should use one
where possible, yes for longer lenses and slower film speeds, the shutter
speed for tripod use increases,

As a rule, always use a tripod, if its available.

Brian......................

"rufref" <tom.photoverizon.net> wrote in message
Quote:

> If you are using a telephoto you really should use a tripod. I do not
know
Quote:

> what the length of your lens is but basics are: use a shutter speed of
> 1/250, for iso 25 f/5.6, for iso 50 f/8, for iso 100 f/11 and for iso 400
> f/22 and bracket +- in half stops.
>
> --
> Tom
>
> [url]http://www.tom-photo.com/[/url]
>
>
> news:bfa1as\$6bf\$1nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net...
Quote:

> > I'm somewhat of a newbie. I have a Minolta XG-1 camera that's about 20
> years
Quote:

> > old and I LOVE it. Love taking pics with it.... especially since I have

2
Quote:

Quote:

> > kids that are very photogenic.
> >
> > I did a basic photography course and can pretty much shoot anything in

the
Quote:

Quote:

> > daytime or with a flash... as for nightime. I've yet to take a nice pic

of
Quote:

Quote:

> > the moon. I always end up with too slow a shudder speed, or no shot at
> all.
Quote:

> >
> > When it comes to matching shudder speeds and arpetures, I get confused.

I
Quote:

Quote:

> > know that there is a bit of a system to it. Can someone offer a bit of
> > advice? Particularly about a good setting to shoot the moon? I've always
> > wanted a REALLY nice shot of a harvest moon.... Or a moon rise...
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

• July 20th, 05:17 AM
Jesper Olsen
Re: Pics of the moon
Quote:

> advice? Particularly about a good setting to shoot the moon? I've always
> wanted a REALLY nice shot of a harvest moon.... Or a moon rise...
>

This moon shot is exposed at 1/125 seconds, f/11, ISO 100:

[url]http://www.jesperolsen.net/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?name=PAW&photo=13[/url]

Jesper
• July 20th, 08:45 AM
Danny
Re: Pics of the moon

"Jesper Olsen" <jolsenmail2world.com> wrote in message
Quote:

> (snip)
> This moon shot is exposed at 1/125 seconds, f/11, ISO 100:
>
> [url]http://www.jesperolsen.net/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?name=PAW&photo=13[/url]
>
> Jesper
A very nice shot of the moon... (and a very pretty Charlien Enkelit I might
add)..., However.. Week 22, (Scandinavian, the first pic), is priceless!
an excellent pic!

Danny

• July 20th, 08:27 PM
Re: Pics of the moon
Wow, I think you just summed up the roots of my photography course in one
post there....

Thanks so much! I printed it off so I could have something to refer back to!

Heather

"Brian" <brian5blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8O9Sa.48401\$4c.42832news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Quote:

> Contrary to popular belief, you don't need a slow shutter speed to shoot
the
Quote:

> moon, in fact you dont even need a tripod, the moon is very bright and is
> the main subject of your pic, so use about a 1/250th at F8, bracket 1
stop
Quote:

> either side just for the sake of it, This means using 1/125th at F8 and
> 1/500th at F8, you can go half a stop either side if you want but that
could
Quote:

> be difficult if your camera doesnt do half stops on shutter speed.
>
>
>
>
> Everything in Photography either halves or doubles.
>
> If you gain in one part you must lose in another and vice versa.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> These are the standard F-stop numbers used in Photography, every second
> number is approximately double. The larger the number the smaller the
actual
Quote:

> aperture is.
>
> 1.8 2.8 4 5.6 8 11 16 22
>
>
>
> F-stop numbers also determine the "Depth of Field", how sharp an image is
> going to be and how much of what is in the image is sharp.
>
> For example f 1.8 to f 4 would give a shallow depth of field, making the
> image focused on sharp but everything else in the frame fuzzy. Where as f
11
Quote:

> to f 22 would give an extensive depth of field, where almost everything in
> the frame was sharp.
>
>
>
> Shutter speeds are also set in the same manner as F-stop numbers in that
> they are all double of half the number next to it. The 2 exceptions being
> 1/125 and 1/15, This is just down to the manufacturing process and means
> nothing in particular.
>
>
>
> 1/1000 1/500 1/250 1/125 1/60 1/30 1/15 1/8 ¼ ½ 1sec
>
> As a rule you will find that any shutter speed slower than 1/60 of a
second
Quote:

> will require the use of a tripod.
>
>
>
> Film speeds are available in a wide range and these also double or halve
in
Quote:

> value as with shutter speeds and f-stop numbers. Film speed is measured in
> ASA or ISO both are identical and will both appear on the film packaging.
> The most common film speeds available are: -
>
>
>
> 3 6 12 25 50 100 200 400 800 1600 3200 6400
>
>
>
> Speeds of 3 to 12 are very slow and give a much less grainy finish speeds
of
Quote:

> 100 to 200 are medium speeds and speeds of 400 to 6400 are fast usually
> giving a much more grainy effect on the finished print, although modern
film
Quote:

> production tends to give much less grain at all levels. 400asa/iso is a
good
Quote:

> all round film. Normally thgre darker the scene the faster the film speed
> shoudl be, this would allow you to use a faster shutter speed and a
smaller,
Quote:

> ( larger f numbers), apertures
>
>
>
> For example if you start with the settings of f2.8 at 1/60 with 100asa
film
Quote:

> and you really want to use a shutter speed of 1/500, which is an increase
of
Quote:

> 3 stops, then you must decrease the aperture by the same amount of stops,
> bringing it to f8, The film speed can also be used in the same way to gain
> the desired result.
>
>
> so basically, let the camrea's meter decide what it would use, then change
> to the shutter speed you want to use, and adjust the aperture to suit. if
> you want to use a faster shutter speed you have to use a larger F number,
> but both must be adjusted by the same number of stops, 3 clicks of the
> shutter speed dial = 3 clicks of the aperture dial.
>
>
> Hope this helps
> Brian...........................
>
>
>
>
>
> news:bfa1as\$6bf\$1nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net...
Quote:

> > I'm somewhat of a newbie. I have a Minolta XG-1 camera that's about 20
> years
Quote:

> > old and I LOVE it. Love taking pics with it.... especially since I have

2
Quote:

Quote:

> > kids that are very photogenic.
> >
> > I did a basic photography course and can pretty much shoot anything in

the
Quote:

Quote:

> > daytime or with a flash... as for nightime. I've yet to take a nice pic

of
Quote:

Quote:

> > the moon. I always end up with too slow a shudder speed, or no shot at
> all.
Quote:

> >
> > When it comes to matching shudder speeds and arpetures, I get confused.

I
Quote:

Quote:

> > know that there is a bit of a system to it. Can someone offer a bit of
> > advice? Particularly about a good setting to shoot the moon? I've always
> > wanted a REALLY nice shot of a harvest moon.... Or a moon rise...
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

• July 20th, 09:21 PM
Brian
Re: Pics of the moon
no problem glad to be off help, those were the notes the course I took when
I started.

Brian....................

news:bfetvf\$l73\$1nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net...
Quote:

> Wow, I think you just summed up the roots of my photography course in one
> post there....
>
> Thanks so much! I printed it off so I could have something to refer back
to!
Quote:

>
> Heather
>
> "Brian" <brian5blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:8O9Sa.48401\$4c.42832news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Quote:

> > Contrary to popular belief, you don't need a slow shutter speed to shoot
> the
Quote:

> > moon, in fact you dont even need a tripod, the moon is very bright and

is
Quote:

Quote:

> > the main subject of your pic, so use about a 1/250th at F8, bracket 1
> stop
Quote:

> > either side just for the sake of it, This means using 1/125th at F8 and
> > 1/500th at F8, you can go half a stop either side if you want but that
> could
Quote:

> > be difficult if your camera doesnt do half stops on shutter speed.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Everything in Photography either halves or doubles.
> >
> > If you gain in one part you must lose in another and vice versa.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > These are the standard F-stop numbers used in Photography, every second
> > number is approximately double. The larger the number the smaller the
> actual
Quote:

> > aperture is.
> >
> > 1.8 2.8 4 5.6 8 11 16 22
> >
> >
> >
> > F-stop numbers also determine the "Depth of Field", how sharp an image

is
Quote:

Quote:

> > going to be and how much of what is in the image is sharp.
> >
> > For example f 1.8 to f 4 would give a shallow depth of field, making

the
Quote:

Quote:

> > image focused on sharp but everything else in the frame fuzzy. Where as

f
Quote:

> 11
Quote:

> > to f 22 would give an extensive depth of field, where almost everything

in
Quote:

Quote:

> > the frame was sharp.
> >
> >
> >
> > Shutter speeds are also set in the same manner as F-stop numbers in that
> > they are all double of half the number next to it. The 2 exceptions

being
Quote:

Quote:

> > 1/125 and 1/15, This is just down to the manufacturing process and means
> > nothing in particular.
> >
> >
> >
> > 1/1000 1/500 1/250 1/125 1/60 1/30 1/15 1/8 ¼ ½ 1sec
> >
> > As a rule you will find that any shutter speed slower than 1/60 of a
> second
Quote:

> > will require the use of a tripod.
> >
> >
> >
> > Film speeds are available in a wide range and these also double or

halve
Quote:

> in
Quote:

> > value as with shutter speeds and f-stop numbers. Film speed is measured

in
Quote:

Quote:

> > ASA or ISO both are identical and will both appear on the film

packaging.
Quote:

Quote:

> > The most common film speeds available are: -
> >
> >
> >
> > 3 6 12 25 50 100 200 400 800 1600 3200 6400
> >
> >
> >
> > Speeds of 3 to 12 are very slow and give a much less grainy finish

speeds
Quote:

> of
Quote:

> > 100 to 200 are medium speeds and speeds of 400 to 6400 are fast usually
> > giving a much more grainy effect on the finished print, although modern
> film
Quote:

> > production tends to give much less grain at all levels. 400asa/iso is a
> good
Quote:

> > all round film. Normally thgre darker the scene the faster the film

speed
Quote:

Quote:

> > shoudl be, this would allow you to use a faster shutter speed and a
> smaller,
Quote:

> > ( larger f numbers), apertures
> >
> >
> >
> > For example if you start with the settings of f2.8 at 1/60 with 100asa
> film
Quote:

> > and you really want to use a shutter speed of 1/500, which is an

increase
Quote:

> of
Quote:

> > 3 stops, then you must decrease the aperture by the same amount of

stops,
Quote:

Quote:

> > bringing it to f8, The film speed can also be used in the same way to

gain
Quote:

Quote:

> > the desired result.
> >
> >
> > so basically, let the camrea's meter decide what it would use, then

change
Quote:

Quote:

> > to the shutter speed you want to use, and adjust the aperture to suit.

if
Quote:

Quote:

> > you want to use a faster shutter speed you have to use a larger F

number,
Quote:

Quote:

> > but both must be adjusted by the same number of stops, 3 clicks of the
> > shutter speed dial = 3 clicks of the aperture dial.
> >
> >
> > Hope this helps
> > Brian...........................
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > news:bfa1as\$6bf\$1nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net...
Quote:

> > > I'm somewhat of a newbie. I have a Minolta XG-1 camera that's about 20
> > years
Quote:

> > > old and I LOVE it. Love taking pics with it.... especially since I

have
Quote:

> 2
Quote:

Quote:

> > > kids that are very photogenic.
> > >
> > > I did a basic photography course and can pretty much shoot anything in

> the
Quote:

Quote:

> > > daytime or with a flash... as for nightime. I've yet to take a nice

pic
Quote:

> of
Quote:

Quote:

> > > the moon. I always end up with too slow a shudder speed, or no shot at
> > all.
Quote:

> > >
> > > When it comes to matching shudder speeds and arpetures, I get

confused.
Quote:

> I
Quote:

Quote:

> > > know that there is a bit of a system to it. Can someone offer a bit of
> > > advice? Particularly about a good setting to shoot the moon? I've

always
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

> > > wanted a REALLY nice shot of a harvest moon.... Or a moon rise...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

• July 22nd, 12:38 PM
Larry Caldwell
Re: Pics of the moon
[email]brian5blueyonder.co.uk[/email] (Brian) writes:
Quote:

> As a rule you will find that any shutter speed slower than 1/60 of a second
> will require the use of a tripod.
For 35mm film, the rule is that any shutter speed slower than the lens
focal length will require a tripod. You can shoot hand held at 1/25th of
a second with a 24mm lens, but a 250mm lens will require a 1/250th of a
second shutter to minimize blur.

In these days of ultra zoom lenses that is a good rule to remember,
particularly since most zooms change f-stop as they change focal length.

--
[url]http://home.teleport.com/~larryc[/url]
• July 23rd, 08:15 PM
Randy Ott
Re: Pics of the moon

"Brian" <brian5blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8O9Sa.48401\$4c.42832news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Quote:

> Contrary to popular belief, you don't need a slow shutter speed to shoot
the
Quote:

> moon, in fact you dont even need a tripod, the moon is very bright and is
> the main subject of your pic, so use about a 1/250th at F8, bracket 1
stop
Quote:

> either side just for the sake of it, This means using 1/125th at F8 and
> 1/500th at F8, you can go half a stop either side if you want but that
could
Quote:

> be difficult if your camera doesnt do half stops on shutter speed.
Doesn't this depend on film speed?

BTW, the brightness of the moon is about the same as the brightness of the
earth in direct sunlight. The "sunny 16" rule is a good place to start.

Randy

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 7/14/2003

• July 24th, 03:33 PM
Brian
Re: Pics of the moon

"Randy Ott" <randyiscdata.com> wrote in message
news:U1CTa.1110\$0A3.214250518newssvr12.news.prodi gy.com...
Quote:

>
> "Brian" <brian5blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:8O9Sa.48401\$4c.42832news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Quote:

> > Contrary to popular belief, you don't need a slow shutter speed to shoot
> the
Quote:

> > moon, in fact you dont even need a tripod, the moon is very bright and

is
Quote:

Quote:

> > the main subject of your pic, so use about a 1/250th at F8, bracket 1
> stop
Quote:

> > either side just for the sake of it, This means using 1/125th at F8 and
> > 1/500th at F8, you can go half a stop either side if you want but that
> could
Quote:

> > be difficult if your camera doesnt do half stops on shutter speed.
>
> Doesn't this depend on film speed?
>
> BTW, the brightness of the moon is about the same as the brightness of the
> earth in direct sunlight. The "sunny 16" rule is a good place to start.
>
> Randy
>
Not really, well ok, I would advise using say 200 ISO and faster, but try it
, I think you will be pleasantly surprised, don't meter off the entire
scene, just meter off the moon itself.
People always seem to be reluctant to try something out, I mean, we spend
hundreds, even thousands, on camera equipment to take photo's, and yet ask
them to possibly waste ONE film, at a total cost of maybe £10 including
processing and printing, to experiment , and they won't do it, but we waste
film and don't think twice about it, maybe out of a 36 exposure roll, the
average amature gets 3 or 4 good prints, the rest is, and I'm sure we will
all agree here, Crap.
Always thought that was strange. you have the equipment so why not use it.

Brian.......................

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