Power of Interpreted Languages

[T. Onoma]

Some general questiosn concerning interpreted lanaguages (and their JIT couterparts).

How far do you think an interpreted language can go? In otherwords, to what extent could the more traditional set of compiled c/c++ programs on a system be replaced by interpreted versions.

We all know that scripting is great for good many tasks, but could scripting make for a good word processor, for instance? How about a Desktop Enviornment or Window Manager?

To what extent can Ruby programs be utilized to displace traditional binary apps on my PC?

Comments...thoughts?

-t

[Thomas Adam]

--- "T. Onoma" <transami@runbox.com> wrote:

> Some general questiosn concerning interpreted lanaguages (and their JIT
> couterparts).
>
> How far do you think an interpreted language can go? In otherwords, to
> what extent could the more traditional set of compiled c/c++ programs on
> a system be replaced by interpreted versions.

Not this tired old refrain again.... Every task has a purpose, so it
really doesn't matter to what extend which language you use. Yes, perhaps
there are languages out there more suited to performing certain tasks than
others...

For example, I wouldn't want to see a high-end graphics game written in
Ruby, it would be too slow.

> We all know that scripting is great for good many tasks, but could
> scripting make for a good word processor, for instance? How about a
> Desktop Enviornment or Window Manager?

No -- too slow.

> To what extent can Ruby programs be utilized to displace traditional
> binary apps on my PC?

This sounds very much like a homework assignment....

-- Thomas Adam

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[Aredridel]

> > We all know that scripting is great for good many tasks, but could

> > scripting make for a good word processor, for instance? How about a
> > Desktop Enviornment or Window Manager?

>
> No -- too slow.

A counter-argument: Look at SawFish. It's critical sections are written
in C, using GTK and GDK to do drawing routines. However, the logic of
the window manager is written in Scheme/REP. Sawfish is also incredibly
flexible beacuse of this, Scheme being as dynamic as it is.

I don't think that being interpreted makes this possible, it is being
dynamic. That said, dynamic is usually a feature of interpreted
languages, not compiled. (The most notable exception I can think of
being Objective C.)

Sawfish is plenty fast -- faster than Metacity, often, which is written
in C alone.

I'd love to see many apps written in Ruby/Gnome2, or at least large
sections. A word processor with the logic written in Ruby would be easy
to hack, easy to fix. Same for other apps. In my experience, it's fast
enough.

(This is why Emacs is popular, too...)

Ari

[Dave Thomas]

On Nov 7, 2003, at 13:31, Thomas Adam wrote:

>> We all know that scripting is great for good many tasks, but could
>> scripting make for a good word processor, for instance? How about a
>> Desktop Enviornment or Window Manager?

>
> No -- too slow.
>

Andy and I've written an X-11 window manager, mostly in Ruby...

Cheers


Dave

[John W. Long]

Wow. Can we download it somewhere?
___________________
John Long
[url]www.wiseheartdesign.com[/url]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Thomas" <dave@pragprog.com>
To: "ruby-talk ML" <ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: Power of Interpreted Languages

>
> On Nov 7, 2003, at 13:31, Thomas Adam wrote:

> >> We all know that scripting is great for good many tasks, but could
> >> scripting make for a good word processor, for instance? How about a
> >> Desktop Enviornment or Window Manager?

> >
> > No -- too slow.
> >

>
> Andy and I've written an X-11 window manager, mostly in Ruby...
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>

[Dave Thomas]

On Nov 7, 2003, at 21:30, John W. Long wrote:

>> Andy and I've written an X-11 window manager, mostly in Ruby...

> Wow. Can we download it somewhere?
>

Sorry - it was for a client (and it was fairly specialized: it was
designed for an internet kiosk, so it's main job was to control rigidly
which windows could be displayed, and where)

Cheers


Dave

[George Ogata]

"John W. Long" <ng@johnwlong.com> writes:

> Wow. Can we download it somewhere?

There is an open source ruby-scriptable X11 WM out there.

[url]http://kahakai.sourceforge.net[/url]

I've yet to try it, but I'd love to hear more opinions of it.

[T. Onoma]

> But, would you implement a game with ruby?

Depends on the game, of course.

Probably not 100% Ruby, but from what others have said/implied Ruby could make a good glue language to pull the compiled pieces together, as well as an embedded script language.

Others agree?

[Simon Strandgaard]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:36:51 +0900, T. Onoma wrote:

>> But, would you implement a game with ruby?

>
> Depends on the game, of course.
>
> Probably not 100% Ruby, but from what others have said/implied Ruby
> could make a good glue language to pull the compiled pieces together,
> as well as an embedded script language.
>
> Others agree?

I have made a tiny Tetris game using Ruby SDL (271 lines of code).
It runs smooth on my pentium350.

Its distributed with ruby-sdl as a sample:
[url]http://www.kmc.gr.jp/~ohai/index.en.html[/url]

--
Simon Strandgaard

[Andrew Walrond]

On Monday 10 Nov 2003 9:36 am, T. Onoma wrote:

> > But, would you implement a game with ruby?

>
> Depends on the game, of course.
>
> Probably not 100% Ruby, but from what others have said/implied Ruby could
> make a good glue language to pull the compiled pieces together, as well as
> an embedded script language.

Absolutely. I'm working on a massive multiplayer game which has it's own
internal script language to allow players to create their own AI for
spacecraft/missiles etc. I've been thinking for a while about the feasibility
of ripping that out and replacing it with an internal ruby facility. The main
problem I see is being able to limit the resources available to each player.
I wouldn't want someone allocating some huge array and bringing the server to
its knees. I'm sure it's feasible though; Just haven't applied any thought to
the solution yet ;)

And of course the legal implications of using ruby in a commercial game, which
might be insurmountable.

Andrew Walrond

[John]

> And of course the legal implications of using ruby in a commercial game, which

> might be insurmountable.

Can someone expound on this? Are there problems using ruby in commercial products?

[Simon Strandgaard]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 06:56:02 -0800, John wrote:

>> And of course the legal implications of using ruby in a commercial game, which
>> might be insurmountable.

>
> Can someone expound on this? Are there problems using ruby in commercial products?

Ruby's regexp engine has a GPL license.

If you wish to use Ruby in a commercial product, then compile the
oniguruma regexp engine into Ruby. AFAIK.. that should be it.

--
Simon Strandgaard

[Mauricio Fernández]

On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 10:22:34AM +0900, Simon Strandgaard wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 06:56:02 -0800, John wrote:
>

> >> And of course the legal implications of using ruby in a commercial game, which
> >> might be insurmountable.

> >
> > Can someone expound on this? Are there problems using ruby in commercial products?

>
> Ruby's regexp engine has a GPL license.

LGPL, a bit nicer for commercial uses

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[Simon Strandgaard]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:18:52 +0900, Mauricio Fernández wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 10:22:34AM +0900, Simon Strandgaard wrote:

>> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 06:56:02 -0800, John wrote:
>>

>> >> And of course the legal implications of using ruby in a commercial game, which
>> >> might be insurmountable.
>> >
>> > Can someone expound on this? Are there problems using ruby in commercial products?

>>
>> Ruby's regexp engine has a GPL license.

>
> LGPL, a bit nicer for commercial uses

Sorry, it wasn't on purpose.. :-)

--
Simon Strandgaard