Printers hate designers? Discuss!

[Gill_Keeley@adobeforums.com]

I am a graphic designer with a new small business and I'm purchasing print from a range of different service providers.

Last week I had an interesting encounter with a printers sales guy, who I suppose made the mistake of being honest. He must have been having an off day!

He has been working in the industry for many years. He told me printers hate designers, alongside other negative revelations about their approach to myself as a print buyer. I was on the brink of placing a large print order. Now I'd rather eat poison than buy from the company, even though I know they produce a very high standard of print.

Am I being hopelessly naive here? Will all the other printers in town have exactly the same attitude underneath their sales veneer? In which case it won't make any difference who I buy from.

It would be nice to hear thoughts from both printers and designers on this one.

[Michael_Gianino@adobeforums.com]

A designer is like an archetect, and a printer is like a builder. An archetect could design a bridge between America and Europe with nothing to hold up the middle but birthday-party balloons. Just because an archetect could design it, doesn't mean that a builder could build it.

If all printers hated all designers (which, being a stereotype couldn't possibly be true) it would be because some designers only concern themselves with how the project looks on the screen, and not at all what it takes to print. Things that I have seen are:

1) A 2-color job, black and blue. When the files are checked, they output on 14 different plates, because the designer used 13 different blues, instead of one blue at different percentages.

2) Full-bleed projects where the image came only to the crop marks, but not beyond.

3) The use of junky $20-per-thousand fonts that cause RIPs to PostScript error themselves to nowhere.

4) Jobs that are to be printed on cut stock that have no gripper margin.

5) The use of 7 point white type in areas that require lots of ink that result in either washed-out solids, or choked type.

When these and other practical concerns are not considered by the designer and just left for the printer to "deal with," I suppose you could get a "printers hate designers" situation. The answer is to educate yourself.

You could start by talking to printers, but remember that their jobs are to print, and not to provide you with a free education, so don't expect something for nothing. You could probably work out a barter situation where you do something for them (some designing, perhaps?), and they let you into the shop to look over their shoulders and ask questions. Work it out in advance so that everyone is clear where the boundries are to avoid bad blood. If you are going to be their client and allow them to make money from your work, they have an interest in helping you help them.

[JasonSmith@adobeforums.com]

(Printer's perspective)

There are so many 2 year Design degree programs out there now - we see so MANY of fresh graduates that dont have the first clue as to how to prep a file.

A LOT of these schools are still using older versions of software (read AI 8, PS 5.5, QUARK!!). So when they do get their hands on the latest/greatest software, they can easily push the wrong buttons and screw us on our end.

It's a reality check for a lot of these new designers, and a pain in the arse for the printers that have to deal with them. To top it off, we as printers usually arent in a position to tell the client how to do their work, even though it would make it easier on us and save them $ in the long run.

It's not to say that all new designers out there dont know what they're doing - but safe to say the majority that I see dont know what they're doing. Also we see a lot of 10 year veterans that still dont have a clue. But that's the biz.

It's refreshing to see the one-off client/designer that does know their stuff, and usually we'll go the extra distance to accomidate those clients, because that's the type of business we want to keep.

...and I've had the roles reversed - I've had my own designs, that would work in our own workflow, get totally screwed by pre-press at other printers. So it's not just designers that dont know what they're doing - there's plenty of people in the industry in general from design to print, that really need to be educated and brought up to date.

[Doug_Katz@adobeforums.com]

Printers hate designers in the same way (and for the same reasons) designers hate
clients. Think about the client who minimizes the technical challenges or the
significance of your craft. The one whose expectations are unrealistic, whose
knowledge is deficient, whose interest in collaboration is absent. You need this
client because he pays the bills, but the experience is frustrating and distasteful.
You can see why printers might hate designers, right?

I'm an illustrator. Over my years, I have taken enormous pride when a prepress or
print pro says my files are in perfect order. I think I'm gratified by those remarks
every bit as much as a client's satisfaction with my work. I actually ENJOY delighting
the guys who have to take my stuff and reify it on paper. Conversely, I'm mortified
when a pressman has problems that I caused. I'm as eager to learn how to do it
exactly right for him as I am to adjust some artistic element for a client.

Without a modicum of arrogance intended, printers don't seem to hate me. Maybe
because I love them.

By the way, if you want to learn how to decrease the probability that printers will
hate you, listen and learn from the print and prepress pros on this and the PSCS
forum: John Kallios, Jason Smith, MO, John Slate, and the others. They're the best
teachers I've ever had.

[JasonSmith@adobeforums.com]

Without reading the rest of Doug's post *yet* - his first sentence pretty much sums it up.

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

People who care most about their work, whether designer or printer, are the ones most likely to frequent forums like this one. They're interested in improving their craft, and helping improve those of others. So I think this is an excellent place to solicit this kind of feedback.

I've seen plenty of commentary around here about printers who only accept Illustrator 8 files - and the corresponding consternation of their designers who must stuggle with the fact that they only have Illustrator CS. If the designer works in a small community where there are few choices, this presents a problem.

It hasn't been all that long that printers have accepted digital files at all. Designers took their files to service bureaus to get film, and then took the film to the printer. In my opinion, once the printer decides to accept digital files, they should attempt to keep up with software upgrades.

So - in a modest size community, printers are out there that make it their business to keep current. But they can't do this by suffering fools. Foolishness must be payed for - by the fools. I have little pity for shops who take a loss fixing the work from poor designers because they "need the business." This leads to the situation where printers hate designers.

Like Doug, I take pride in delivering clean, problem-free files to printers. I'm flattered, but it disturbs me, when a printer says, "I wish all the jobs we get were like yours."

There are printers out there who accept CS files, and will bend over backwards to deliver top quality from them. Seek them out. Talk to them about your work. They're trying to learn the intricacies of the new software just like you are. You can help each other. They might be a bit more expensive, and they won't eat the mistakes of bad design.

They don't hate designers, and they're a pleasure to work with.

[JasonSmith@adobeforums.com]

Oh wait - I thought the topic of this thread was 'Pirates hate Designers'.

oops.

[Gary_Newman@adobeforums.com]

This topic makes me wonder if there's a need for some sort of designer's guild, with a certification you get only after an apprenticeship and passing a test. Maybe there already is such a thing I don't know about - in which case, it needs to be more broadly advanced. When I need a new hot water heater I don't hire a guy because he has a good collection of pipe wrenches. I'll pay more to hire a real plumber contractor, but I won't worry about his work, either. (Usually, anyway - no profession is moron-free).

I've seen so many posts on this forum by folks who say things like, "I just opened my business (or was just hired) as a designer and now I'm trying to learn Illustrator. What is the Pen tool for?"

Far be it from me to promote elitism - I want everyone who is interested to learn how to do it right. Then clients will only hire qualified designers, printers will get jobs that go through smoothly and quickly, and they'll love designers. Your complexion will clear up and world peace will reign.

[Gill_Keeley@adobeforums.com]

Thanks for your thoughts folks - they are all really interesting.

I don't think an 'industry standard' of printers hating designers or designers hating clients is something that should be accepted or lived with by any of us.

Am I a wierdo? I like my clients.

Getting the technicals right for the printer is surely be an essential part of a designers task. If designers present technically scrappy files to process, perhaps this is an issue which people in colleges should address? Should every design course have a resident print process educator for starters?

Is there a possibility, also, that some printers are not communicating successfully with designers, as well as the other way around?

How do printers view their own responsibility in creating a positive relationship here?
What way do printers pride themselves on their ability to provide a good service to designers? How would a printer sell their approach to working with designers in a competitive marketplace where a designer may be the decision maker providing access to many thousands of pounds worth of business?

Can't you avoid all sorts of potential problems with clients, simply by good faith, relationship building and communicating well up front?

[John_Kallios@adobeforums.com]

Reminds me of a couple sayings…

Work would be great except for all these damn customers.
or
I could get so much work done if the phone would stop ringing.

That is why we only have clients and not customers. It is a symbiotic relationship. Through greater understanding of each other and each other's processes, improved product results.

Standard job: Designer's client orders a job and requests 10 day turnaround. Designer completes artwork and obtains approval in 2 days and sends off to printer requesting a 6 day turnaround. (3 day buffer and delivering early makes them look good)

Salesman says the client wants it in 5 days.(buffer and looks good)

Printer produces job in 2 days but sends out to bindery for finishing. Demands job from bindery to be completed in one day. Bindery responds that the quickest is one and half days. Printer agrees but lets the bindery know that minutes count and a half hour will make or break the job. (printer also wants their buffer and also so they can deliver early to look good)

Delivery or shipping: In-house drivers are told do this now and they deliver job within an hour (depending on local delivery or they prep within an hour for long hauls)

Designer receives samples (or job if it was spec'd) and the printer looks good because they turned the job early. The designer looks Great to their client because they turned the job in only 6 days (4 days savings) Bindery gets no recognition because they actually had the nerve to say a gallon a minute spiggot cannot fill a 1000 gallon pool in an hour. Delivery does not even get considered. They are after all peons that their eye level must always be lower than the rest of "us".

:)

From personal experience, prepress can get frustrated when they are prevented from contacting designer due to the sales staff not wanting anyone to associate with their contact. Just to pass along a simple instruction. 1/8th bleeds for presses, 1/4th bleed for color duplication.

So, the truth is, prepress HATE their internal salespeople. ;)

[Gill_Keeley@adobeforums.com]

I love John Kallios!

Going back to Gary's thought:
I've seen so many posts on this forum by folks who say things like, "I just opened my business (or was just hired) as a designer and now I'm trying to learn Illustrator. What is the Pen tool for?"

A supplier said to me ' we've been established 30 years, we've made all our mistakes'. So I ordered a next day delivery. When it didn't arrive the next day I called them up. 'O, next day delivery doesn't actually mean next day delivery'. My delivery didn't arrive the next day or the next. It didn't arrive at all, tho I received the invoice quite promptly.

I went to a new business that had just opened up shop in my neighbourhood. I said help, I desperately need some stuff tomorrow, my supplier let me down. They pulled out all the stops and got me my delivery the samne day. Product was cheaper too.

So I'm delighted to be a new business. I think we try harder. And I make no apologies for being on a steep learning curve.

[JasonSmith@adobeforums.com]

Funny thing is - I've had to prep/print jobs from the one of our local college instructor's - she apparently 'teaches' photoshop.

files were a disaster. if I remember right, I needed her to email me fonts, drop shadows not set to multiply (which look like hell when they arent), horrible stock bevel/emboss, general lack of imagination, duotones not set up correctly, ect...basic stuff.

My mother who is an instructor at the same college has been riding my case to go back to school for this stuff.

I'm afraid I'd end up teaching the class.

[Christy_Ruby@adobeforums.com]

So are there any books out there that can teach us drop shadows not set to multiply (which look like hell when they arent), horrible stock bevel/emboss, general lack of imagination, duotones not set up correctly, ect...basic stuff?
I know there's Pre-Flight programs that a printer uses to analize our designs, but I can't belive nobodys hasn't taken advantage of the money writting a book about Pre-printing? The chapter in the ill. book is short and sweet.

[Gordon_Anderson@adobeforums.com]

I was in the printing business for many years and my experince was that printers don't hate designers at all... except the ones that don't know their stuff, don't ask questions AND then try to find someone else to blame for the problems. Those designers are held in a special #$%@# status :) Like any good partnership, two way flow and communication and respect is quite enjoyable.

Gordon

[Scott_Weichert@adobeforums.com]

I hate printer.... Epson, HP, Lexmark... hate them all!

Oh wait, I've done prepress.. I guess I hate designers! Gucci, Versaci, Armani.. they all stink!

I guess I have my own special dysfunction :)

Printers do hate designers that don't know what they are doing. Good files makes happy printers and a great working relationship. Often garnishing work from a printer once he sees you know what your'e doing. I absolutely LOVE those 2 year design schools. They flood the market with people that have just enough knowledge to be a problem. This in turn, gives good problem solvers a steady income. :)

[Buko@adobeforums.com]

I think everyone who wants to hang a designer shingle on their door needs to intern in a printing plant for 2 to 4 years and learn every aspect of the process. Starting in Bindery and ending in the prepress.

[JasonSmith@adobeforums.com]

....Starting with Christy.

[Gill_Keeley@adobeforums.com]

Well if I was choosing who to this trust with a valuable print order right now it would be Gordon Anderson. (John Kallios is probably a bit too busy being sublimely helpful all over the place).

Hey Gordon, have you thought about moving to the UK and setting up a business here? Please will somebody like you do my printing for me.

[Gordon_Anderson@adobeforums.com]

Hmmm, UK huh? Sounds quite nice actually :) Thanks for your comment Gill. Actually, as mentioned, I was in the printing business for many years but now (after retiring for a few years) I teach Print Production at a local Art Institute. I bring that up because the main reason that made me want to do that was my experience with so many people (designers, artists, and yes even printers) that seemed to be WAY behind the curve on file prep, etc. It's mentally rewarding to hopefully contribute to the learning curve.

And, I think the comment about consulting is right. With so many people "undertrained" in the marketplace the timing seems ripe for people that can offer assistance. After all, technology can be fairly overwhelming at times and it's tough to keep up.

And lastly, I agree with the John Kallios comment. Talk about a knowlegeable pro that's willing to share that expertise with others. Good for him.

Gordon

[LRK@adobeforums.com]

<< And lastly, I agree with the John Kallios comment. Talk about a knowlegeable pro that's willing to share that expertise with others. Good for him. >>

I agree.