Question on handing over original files

[Rick]

A question for you graphic designers out there. After you've completed a
project for a client and you give them the finished product, do you also
normally give them your original files? What if they ask for them? If not
the original files, would you be willing to give them a PDF, EPS, etc. that
they could later alter. Or do you consider your files as your property, and
just give them the finished project. I know that this is probably something
that should be handled in the contract (which I did not do), but even if it
was, how do most of you handle this issue in your contracts? Would you allow
them to have the originals? Personally, I don't like the idea of giving them
any of my original files or files that can be manipulated (like PDF) for two
reasons. First, they could alter my work without my permission and change it
into something I'd rather not be associated with. And second, if it's
something that could be re-used down the road, say by simply changing the
date/time, etc., they could just make the changes themselves (or have it
done for cheap) and re-print the item, thus cutting me out of future work.

This is what is happening to me. I did a brochure and a poster for a client
(with no written contract) who now wants my original files "for their
files." I know that what they intend to do next year is to just go in and
change the dates and reprint the stuff without having to re-hire me. Saves
them money, obviously. But then if I were to do it again, I'd probably
redesign the whole project and charge them about the same as the first
time --- not just change the dates.

So what do you do? What is "common practice" with this?

[Tina - AffordableHOST, Inc.]

"Rick" <virilon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40d2275e$1_7@news.athenanews.com...

>
> This is what is happening to me. I did a brochure and a poster for a

client

> (with no written contract) who now wants my original files "for their
> files."

Tell them "I keep the original files. If you ever need changes to the work
I've done for you, contact me and I'll be more than happy to work with you
again." (for a fee, obviously)

This lets them know that you fully realize why they want the files and also
keeps it on a friendly level, so that they won't feel put off to call on you
again. Given the fact that you had no written contract, they have
absolutely no rights to the files. Not only that, but if you DID have a
contract...that would most likely be something to include. Which begs the
question...why the heck didn't you have a contract?

--Tina
--
[url]http://www.AffordableHOST.com[/url] - since 1997
Managed, Dedicated & Colo Servers
Cpanel multi-domain hosting starts @ $5.95/mo.
20% discount code: newsgroup

[Dick Margulis]

Tina - AffordableHOST, Inc. wrote:

> "Rick" <virilon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:40d2275e$1_7@news.athenanews.com...
>

>>This is what is happening to me. I did a brochure and a poster for a

>
> client
>

>>(with no written contract) who now wants my original files "for their
>>files."

>
>
> Tell them "I keep the original files. If you ever need changes to the work
> I've done for you, contact me and I'll be more than happy to work with you
> again." (for a fee, obviously)
>
> This lets them know that you fully realize why they want the files and also
> keeps it on a friendly level, so that they won't feel put off to call on you
> again. Given the fact that you had no written contract, they have
> absolutely no rights to the files. Not only that, but if you DID have a
> contract...that would most likely be something to include. Which begs the
> question...why the heck didn't you have a contract?
>
> --Tina

Let me throw out a notion here from the buyer's point of view. I should
state that in my current role I'm a corporate captive. I render most
stuff myself and farm out the things that are beyond my talents
(illustrations, for example, or Flash animation, the former because I
can't draw worth a damn and the latter because my brain will explode if
I have to become expert in yet one more application).

When I send out a job to a freelance, I have two concerns that lead me
to want the files.

The first is that I find it extremely frustrating to try to get
right-brained artists to do those last little left-brained technical
tweaks that make the art usable for the application. I've several times
had the experience of being sent some "final" rendering in a
non-editable format only to have it explode in my face when I sent it
out to the production house. Yes, I want the vector art and I want it now.

The second is that I know there will be more changes needed two days
_after_ the CEO glances at it and says it looks great. CEOs are allowed
to change their minds two days later; rank hath its privilege. There
will also be changes next year and the year after that. And you, Mr. or
Ms. freelance, may no longer be reachable at your old email address a
year from now.

That said, I certainly understand that you want to protect yourself and
your intellectual property--when it's _your_ property. There are
circumstances when what you are doing is strictly work-for-hire and you
really don't own it. There are other circumstances when you retain the
copyright to your original work and the buyer owns only a license to use
the work in some restricted way. This isn't the place to get into all
those subtleties, but I'll give you one example: when we were spending
venture funds as fast as we could, I had the fun job of buying art for
the office. One of the pieces I commissioned was a quilt in which each
square is our company logo rendered in a different palette. The quilter
came up with the concept, the design, and the colors in addition to
doing the dying and making the piece. What do we own? We own the quilt
and we own the logo. What does she own? She owns the copyright on the
design of the quilt and the right to control where images of it are
used. So she can display photos of it in her portfolio or borrow it for
a show or make more quilts of the same design (not much of a market for
quilts of our corporate logo, but in principle she could). But if we
want to publish a catalog of our art collection, we would need her
permission to include a photo of the quilt, and we would have to
acknowledge her copyright.

Anyway, getting back to the question at hand, there is a form of
protection called escrow that is used when corporations buy software.
The way it works is that the customer does NOT get the source code for
the software, but the software developer deposits a copy of the source
code with an escrow agent. If the software company goes out of business,
the escrow agent releases the source code to the customers who signed on
for the service. That way the customers can maintain the software into
the future even though the original owner is no longer in business.

I don't know if similar escrow services exist for artwork or page layout
files, but if I had a vendor balk at providing files I thought we ought
to have, I'd be happy to work out such an escrow arrangement. I think
that would satisfy everyone's requirements quite handily.

Typically, though, I specify up front that the files are a deliverable
I'm contracting for and the price should reflect that fact.

[Rick]

I realize that I should have made up a contract. This was an oversight
because I was doing it for a friend --- actually for a friend's employer. It
was all very informal and I've done a few projects for them before without a
contract with no problems. Now someone at this company in their IT
department brought up about me providing the original files, and that they
could purchase the software (Illustrator, Pagemaker) I used. This is what
led me to think they would just take my files, edit them, and re-use them
for whatever. Truthfully even if I did make up a contract I probably
wouldn't have thought about this issue.

Anyway, what I was wondering is IF/WHEN a contract is drawn up, how do you
all normally handle this issue? Do you flat-out state that the original
files are the property of the designer, or the client? Are provisions made
in the contract to provide the client with files upon request, and what
types of files would you be willing to give them?

Thanks for your input.

Rick




"Tina - AffordableHOST, Inc." <tina@affordablehost.com> wrote in message
news:10d4a8dhhhcqc14@corp.supernews.com...

> "Rick" <virilon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:40d2275e$1_7@news.athenanews.com...

> >
> > This is what is happening to me. I did a brochure and a poster for a

> client

> > (with no written contract) who now wants my original files "for their
> > files."

>
> Tell them "I keep the original files. If you ever need changes to the

work

> I've done for you, contact me and I'll be more than happy to work with you
> again." (for a fee, obviously)
>
> This lets them know that you fully realize why they want the files and

also

> keeps it on a friendly level, so that they won't feel put off to call on

you

> again. Given the fact that you had no written contract, they have
> absolutely no rights to the files. Not only that, but if you DID have a
> contract...that would most likely be something to include. Which begs the
> question...why the heck didn't you have a contract?
>
> --Tina
> --
> [url]http://www.AffordableHOST.com[/url] - since 1997
> Managed, Dedicated & Colo Servers
> Cpanel multi-domain hosting starts @ $5.95/mo.
> 20% discount code: newsgroup
>
>

[Wizard of Draws]

On 6/17/04 8:42 PM, in article [email]10d4er9svc6ujee@news.supernews.com[/email], "Dick
Margulis" <margulisd@comcast.net> wrote:

>
> The first is that I find it extremely frustrating to try to get
> right-brained artists to do those last little left-brained technical
> tweaks that make the art usable for the application. I've several times
> had the experience of being sent some "final" rendering in a
> non-editable format only to have it explode in my face when I sent it
> out to the production house. Yes, I want the vector art and I want it now.
>

This sounds to me like the corporation either needs to hire better qualified
artists, or better communication about what it is you need at the outset.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
[url]www.wizardofdraws.com[/url]
[url]www.cartoonclipart.com[/url]

[Dick Margulis]

Wizard of Draws wrote:

> On 6/17/04 8:42 PM, in article [email]10d4er9svc6ujee@news.supernews.com[/email], "Dick
> Margulis" <margulisd@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>

>>The first is that I find it extremely frustrating to try to get
>>right-brained artists to do those last little left-brained technical
>>tweaks that make the art usable for the application. I've several times
>>had the experience of being sent some "final" rendering in a
>>non-editable format only to have it explode in my face when I sent it
>>out to the production house. Yes, I want the vector art and I want it now.
>>

>
>
> This sounds to me like the corporation either needs to hire better qualified
> artists, or better communication about what it is you need at the outset.

Well, yes, of course; and I've learned from experience how to handle
these situations. But sometimes I'm stuck with someone else's chosen
artist. For example, if I'm coordinating with an organization that is
sponsoring a trade show, and we've agreed to produce show totes as part
of our sponsorship deal, they may require that I reproduce the event
logo on the tote. The company doing the silk screening or embroidery
needs art that meets certain specifications. The organization running
the show has contracted with an artist to create the show logo. I'm the
guy stuck in the middle, trying to get a usable file from the artist.
'Tain't my fault the organization hired a putz; I had nothing to do with
that choice.

[Dan]

Rick wrote:

>>>Truthfully even if I did make up a contract I probably wouldn't have

thought about this issue.<<<

Thankfully for you, the law is already clear on this point....you own the
files unless and until you explicitly sign them away in writing. You can
avoid future misunderstandings/miscommunication/conflicts with one simple
clause, as follows:

"This quote includes all digital files required for final reproduction, but
does not include source files."

Also related: "Usage rights are contingent upon payment in full."

>>>I did a brochure and a poster for a client (with no written contract) who

now wants my original files "for their files."<<<

Your original oral contract is complete. It did not include source files.
Further work/source files are available at additional cost. *It's A New
Deal.* I sense you are distressed because you didn't think of this. Relax.
THEY didn't think of this. THEY didn't require a written contract. THEY did
not fully explain the scope of the project ("But we didn't
knooooooowwwww...."). Fine. Now they do. And it costs more.

Dan
[url]http://www.FreelanceWorkshops.com[/url]





"Rick" <virilon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40d24067$1_3@news.athenanews.com...

> I realize that I should have made up a contract. This was an oversight
> because I was doing it for a friend --- actually for a friend's employer.

It

> was all very informal and I've done a few projects for them before without

a

> contract with no problems. Now someone at this company in their IT
> department brought up about me providing the original files, and that they
> could purchase the software (Illustrator, Pagemaker) I used. This is what
> led me to think they would just take my files, edit them, and re-use them
> for whatever. Truthfully even if I did make up a contract I probably
> wouldn't have thought about this issue.
>
> Anyway, what I was wondering is IF/WHEN a contract is drawn up, how do you
> all normally handle this issue? Do you flat-out state that the original
> files are the property of the designer, or the client? Are provisions made
> in the contract to provide the client with files upon request, and what
> types of files would you be willing to give them?
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Rick

[Helpful Harry]

In article <40d2275e$1_7@news.athenanews.com>, "Rick"
<virilon@yahoo.com> wrote:

> A question for you graphic designers out there. After you've completed a
> project for a client and you give them the finished product, do you also
> normally give them your original files? What if they ask for them? If not
> the original files, would you be willing to give them a PDF, EPS, etc. that
> they could later alter. Or do you consider your files as your property, and
> just give them the finished project. I know that this is probably something
> that should be handled in the contract (which I did not do), but even if it
> was, how do most of you handle this issue in your contracts? Would you allow
> them to have the originals? Personally, I don't like the idea of giving them
> any of my original files or files that can be manipulated (like PDF) for two
> reasons. First, they could alter my work without my permission and change it
> into something I'd rather not be associated with. And second, if it's
> something that could be re-used down the road, say by simply changing the
> date/time, etc., they could just make the changes themselves (or have it
> done for cheap) and re-print the item, thus cutting me out of future work.
>
> This is what is happening to me. I did a brochure and a poster for a client
> (with no written contract) who now wants my original files "for their
> files." I know that what they intend to do next year is to just go in and
> change the dates and reprint the stuff without having to re-hire me. Saves
> them money, obviously. But then if I were to do it again, I'd probably
> redesign the whole project and charge them about the same as the first
> time --- not just change the dates.
>
> So what do you do? What is "common practice" with this?

Basically you need to CLEARLY state whichever way you prefer (they own
or you own) in EVERY contract, written or verbal, and make sure clients
understand that from the very beginning. Anything else is just bound to
lead to problems and gets very messy.



Helpful Harry
Hopefully helping harassed humans happily handle handiwork hardships ;o)

[mark | r]

if its a logo i supply a cd with the logo in various guises, and an insert
that lets them and other designers know how it is intended to be used!

for anything else, they get a cd with the print files on them, ive only had
one customer work into my artwork to produce a right load of poo. thats
their perogative, as long as i dont have to feature it in my portfolio, and
im usually brought in to sort the mess out in the end.

see [url]http://www.37signals.com/svn/archives/000717.php?32#comments[/url]

mark

"Rick" <virilon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40d2275e$1_7@news.athenanews.com...

> A question for you graphic designers out there. After you've completed a
> project for a client and you give them the finished product, do you also
> normally give them your original files? What if they ask for them? If not
> the original files, would you be willing to give them a PDF, EPS, etc.

that

> they could later alter. Or do you consider your files as your property,

and

> just give them the finished project. I know that this is probably

something

> that should be handled in the contract (which I did not do), but even if

it

> was, how do most of you handle this issue in your contracts? Would you

allow

> them to have the originals? Personally, I don't like the idea of giving

them

> any of my original files or files that can be manipulated (like PDF) for

two

> reasons. First, they could alter my work without my permission and change

it

> into something I'd rather not be associated with. And second, if it's
> something that could be re-used down the road, say by simply changing the
> date/time, etc., they could just make the changes themselves (or have it
> done for cheap) and re-print the item, thus cutting me out of future work.
>
> This is what is happening to me. I did a brochure and a poster for a

client

> (with no written contract) who now wants my original files "for their
> files." I know that what they intend to do next year is to just go in and
> change the dates and reprint the stuff without having to re-hire me. Saves
> them money, obviously. But then if I were to do it again, I'd probably
> redesign the whole project and charge them about the same as the first
> time --- not just change the dates.
>
> So what do you do? What is "common practice" with this?
>
>
>