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SCO attacks GPL - SCO

Well, it has happened: SCO has claimed in a court filing that the GPL is unenforcable, violates the constitution (yes, really!), etc. So, those of you that have previously supported SCO's rights now have to consider how you view SCO. SCO has benefited from open source software and now attacks the license under underpins much open source development. SCO attacks the very license under which SCO has, itself, released code. Now: those of you who advise clients on installing and maintaining systems -- can you advse clients to install or continue to use SCO with a clear conscience? Can you ...

  1. #1

    Default SCO attacks GPL

    Well, it has happened: SCO has claimed in a court filing that the GPL is
    unenforcable, violates the constitution (yes, really!), etc.

    So, those of you that have previously supported SCO's rights now have to
    consider how you view SCO.

    SCO has benefited from open source software and now attacks the license
    under underpins much open source development. SCO attacks the very
    license under which SCO has, itself, released code.

    Now: those of you who advise clients on installing and maintaining
    systems -- can you advse clients to install or continue to use SCO with
    a clear conscience?

    Can you support an SCO installation, that, for example, includes SAMBA?

    SCO has clearly drawn the battle lines -- it is time to decide on which
    side you stand!

    SCO employees: I ask you how you can continue to work for a company that
    simultaneously distributes GPL software yet attacks the GPL?


    Joe Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    Joe Dunning wrote:
     
    I've kept out of this, but it might be time to throw an oar in...

    We have clients still running pentium 120s and 166s. We have had
    clients ring us to find out who we are and why they are paying
    maintenance - the systems had run for so long without needing us that
    noone left in management knew who we were.

    How can I advise these people, often running on shoestring budgets, to
    upgrade to Linux when the current system will not need any work until
    the hardware finally bites the dust? Even if I did, why would they let
    us charge them for it? Should I do this for free?

    I hate SCO. I hate their ty OS. I hate what they are doing and am
    waiting eagerly for them to be hit by the bus called IBM. SCO have a
    snowball's chance in hell of getting more money out of us. But that
    doesn't mean we are going to immediately jump ship - it will happen, but
    not on this hardware.

    --
    Scott Burns

    Scott Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:55:13 GMT, Scott Burns <com> wrote: 
    >I've kept out of this, but it might be time to throw an oar in...
    >
    >How can I advise these people, often running on shoestring budgets, to
    >upgrade to Linux when the current system will not need any work until
    >the hardware finally bites the dust? Even if I did, why would they let
    >us charge them for it? Should I do this for free?[/ref]

    Well, I understand the argument to leave alone those systems that are
    running well. The question comes down to maintenance and upgrades: who
    will provide this when SCO has disappeared?

    My suggestion is that you might want to begin to plan for replacement of
    SCO OS installations in anticipation of the time that support has
    disappeared.
     

    Actually, Linux will run very well on the hardware you describe. Whether
    it makes good sense to do this is another question. Hop over to one of
    the Gentoo newsgoups and you will see a discussion of running Gentoo on
    a '386!


    Joe Guest

  4. Moderated Post

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    Removed by Administrator
    Scott Guest
    Moderated Post

  5. #5

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:56:39 GMT, Scott Burns <com> wrote: 

    In my view, doing anything that might lead to SCO receiving more money
    does constitute acting unethically. Actions that might lead to more
    money going to SCO is clearly supporting SCO.

    Furthermore, (again, in my view) if you don't advise your clients of the
    risks that SCO faces (including possible patent violations by SCO), then
    you are not giving your clients good advice.

    Joe Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    Joe Dunning wrote:
     
    >
    >In my view, doing anything that might lead to SCO receiving more money
    >does constitute acting unethically. Actions that might lead to more
    >money going to SCO is clearly supporting SCO.
    >[/ref]
    It can be a bit of a dilema - one could come up with tighter situations,
    say a company needs to go from 15 to 20 users. Is it cheaper for them
    to buy the licence or for someone to migrate them to Linux? I'd say it
    would be cheaper to pay SCO. Which is less ethical: paying SCO and
    saving the client money or making the client pay more but supporting
    SCO? Is it the companies descision or the admins? I understand your
    point about future maintenance but by the time this gets to court (and
    with SCO getting the cash infusion) the system in question may need
    upgrading anyway.

    I don't think it's all black and white, nor are the choices everyone
    will be making.
     
    Most of our clients would look at me blankly and then ask how this
    affects them. My honest answer would have to be "It doesn't." Whether
    SCO succeeds or fails they will still be running the same version of SCO
    when their hard drives fail or their RAM cooks or their power supply
    fries the motherboard. Then we'll worry about what to install, although
    we were planning on moving away from SCO long before any of this blew up.


    --
    Scott Burns

    Scott Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    Joe Dunning <invalid> wrote: 

    Hardly surprising.
     

    It has to be right up there in the list of really stupid moves. If
    successful (and of course I hope it is not), it will come back to
    bite them. Hard.
     

    Well, that really isn't as outrageous as it sounds. This isn't
    the Boy Scouts: SCO used Open Source as part of their marketing
    efforts, not out of some altruistic morality.
     

    Yes.
     

    Yes.
     

    Right where I've always stood: they have every right to pursue damages
    if IBM really did misuse their code. I'm not sure how that is going
    to turn out, but the right is not in question. If, as you seem to
    believe, they really are simply engaging in manipulation, then they
    will richly deserve whatever the FCC gives them. And if not, not.

    As to attacking the GPL, again, they have every right to. I would
    hope that this effort is unsuccessful, but that doesn't change
    their right to attack it. I think people who drive SUV's are
    unconscionable, but I don't question their right to do so, nor
    do I slash their tires or key their paint.
     

    That really isn't the extreme moral contradiction you seem to
    think it is.

    --
    com Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
    Get paid for writing about tech: http://aplawrence.com/publish.html
    tony@aplawrence.com Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    Joe Dunning <invalid> wrote:
     

    We'll build that pontoon when we find the bridge is really gone, Joe.
     

    Oh, sheesh. Don't you think that every one of us has been making
    those plans for years?

    --
    com Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
    Get paid for writing about tech: http://aplawrence.com/publish.html
    tony@aplawrence.com Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    Joe Dunning <invalid> wrote: [/ref]
     

    Oh goody. An idealist.
     

    And exactly how would that affect the clients?

    Are you advising Linux clients of the possible risks THEY might face?

    --
    com Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
    Get paid for writing about tech: http://aplawrence.com/publish.html
    tony@aplawrence.com Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    Joe Dunning <invalid> wrote:
     
     

    You know, one of the things you probably don't understand is that
    for the consultants and resellers here, SCO "going under" would
    ,at the most. simply mean Y2K all over again for us: a small bonanza
    in extra work as some people scrambled to replace systems.

    We'd then resume our lifes supporting the new systems.

    But just like Y2K, people aren't going to change unless and until they
    have to, and in this case, there's not much pushing them. Support?
    Many of these systems go year after year after year with no support
    at all. Upgrades? Same story. So what's the problem? Where's
    the urgency? Let it run till there is a real problem. Plan, yes,
    but that is something most are doing anyway.

    Even if SCO dies double dog dead (and I'm not convinced of that yet at
    all), not a lot changes for most of us.

    --
    com Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
    Get paid for writing about tech: http://aplawrence.com/publish.html
    tony@aplawrence.com Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    Joe Dunning <invalid> wrote:
     

    My wife supports WalMart by shopping there, in spite of the
    fact that their politics disgust us. She feels very guilty
    about that.

    I think we are killing this planet with pollution, yet I own two
    full size automobiles, and my lawn is regularly cared for with
    fertilzers and pesticides. You might make me feel guilty about
    that, too, but not about SCO.

    I don't find anything to get morally indignant about at SCO. I
    think they are making terrible mistakes, yes. But that's not
    a moral issue.

    --
    com Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
    Get paid for writing about tech: http://aplawrence.com/publish.html
    tony@aplawrence.com Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    You guys wrote: 

    I don't have a conscience problem, but I do have a problem recommending SCO
    now, considering how unstable the corporate situation is- a severe case of
    FUD. I just recommended RedHat, for the first time to a large client,
    because I was afraid of the future SCO product and corporate instability.
     

    Good question, and argument to use another OS. As for old systems running
    well, you and your client need to ask yourself how important is the server
    and application. Components like hard disks can be hard to buy for older
    systems. If your client can't wait a couple of weeks for a new system when
    the old one dies, then you better get a new one ASAP.
     

    Oh come on. Do you use your customers and business as a political punishment
    tool? Put your customers and their interests FIRST. If SCO fits customer's
    needs best, use SCO, if not use something else.
     

    Sad but true. I agree.

     

    Yes, with no problem whatsoever, because when it comes to my clients, the
    client's needs and interest takes precedence.

    Scott wrote: 

    Then the solution is easy: use something else. I have liked SCO for all
    these years, it was reliable, stable, supportable. That was then, this is
    now, that confidence was replaced by FUD. Not good.


    Bob Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:45:19 +0000 (UTC), com
    <com> wrote:
     

    Sheesh, what would SCO's management have to do before you would actually
    criticise them beyond saying they have made mistakes? Do they have to
    burn people at the stake?

    You are beginning to sound like a kid who lost an argument and now has
    his hands over his ears and is saying "blah, blah, blah, I can't hear
    you.... it's all a mistake..."

    You think is is ethical to take open source software while denying the
    validity of the license under which you received it?

    You think it is ethical to attempt to charge for the use of other
    people's intellectual property?

    Do I have to go on?


    Joe Guest

  14. #14

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:29:13 -0800, Bob Meyers <com> wrote: 

    Believe it or not, society and business do not exist in a moral vacuum.
    We know there have been some bad cases recently (Enron, Worldcom), but
    not all companies are like this.
     

    And Linux has rapidly outpaced SCO.

     
    Joe Guest

  15. #15

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    Joe Dunning wrote: [/ref]
     

    You have to excuse Tony - he still thinks gravity is just a theory and is
    expecting to fly off into space someday when it is repealed.

    Tony employs obfuscation like a dueling foil and hides behind a shield of
    brute ignorance.

    After SCO crashes and burns and the entire SCO legal offense has been
    revealed as a hopeful shot in the dark, Tony will still be sitting on the
    fence stating "SCO has every right to defend their IP and contracts".

    What Tony will NEVER do is answer a directed question. Tony will IGNORE
    every fact stating; 'You never know what a judge will decide".

    In short, Tony is as THICK as a bucket of country rock.

    Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and then
    beat you with experience.

    Best regards,

    Brian
    Network Services

    Brian Guest

  16. #16

    Default RE: SCO attacks GPL

    brian wrote: 

    Tony,

    Did you hear that!!! I'd suggest you stop arguing with Brian
    before he has the opportunity to beat you...

    Bill Guest

  17. #17

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    Joe Dunning <invalid> wrote: 
     [/ref]
     
     
     

    What argument did I lose? I don't recall making any argument.

    I don't think that is a moral issue at all. It's just business.
     

    No. Not when (as is the case with the GPL), those folks have
    given their permission. Besides, who says they are charging?
    Prices haven't changed any..
     

    Nothing has stopped you so far..

    --
    com Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
    Get paid for writing about tech: http://aplawrence.com/publish.html


    tony@aplawrence.com Guest

  18. #18

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    Brian <com> wrote: [/ref][/ref]
     [/ref]
     
     
     

    Nope. I've said before that it won't surprise me if they lose
    this case.
     

    You don't.
     
     

    Naaw, it's OK to argue with idiots. It's fanatics that you get nowhere
    with.

    --
    com Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
    Get paid for writing about tech: http://aplawrence.com/publish.html
    tony@aplawrence.com Guest

  19. #19

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    Joe Dunning <invalid> wrote: [/ref]
     
     [/ref]
     

    Has outpaced SCO Openserver, certainly. I'm not so sure it
    has outpaced Unixware.

    But regardless, I doubt you can find a person here who has any
    objections to Linux.

    --
    com Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
    Get paid for writing about tech: http://aplawrence.com/publish.html
    tony@aplawrence.com Guest

  20. #20

    Default Re: SCO attacks GPL

    On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:06:07 +0000 (UTC), com
    <com> wrote:
     
    >
    >No. Not when (as is the case with the GPL), those folks have
    >given their permission. Besides, who says they are charging?
    >Prices haven't changed any..[/ref]

    Now you are just being deliberately obtuse. You know that I am referring
    to SCO's talk of buying licenses from SCO to use binary copies of Linux.
    You know that the authors of GPL software did not give their permission
    for that.


    But back to my original question: what does it take for you to stop
    excusing the actions of SCO's management as "mistakes"?


    Joe Guest

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