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Since we're into the leagalese..... - Macromedia Dreamweaver

Say I create a website for a client. They pay for their hosting and I build the site on their host in sort of a "good faith" gesture. Now let's say that this friendship that once was turns sour and the guy refuses to follow through on his end of the payment arrangements. Can I retract all my files from the server that he paid for? Also, in the contract I specified that "upon final payment all site files become property of the client". Does this include all my .png graphic files that allow editability of the image maps that ...

  1. #1

    Default Since we're into the leagalese.....

    Say I create a website for a client. They pay for their hosting and I build
    the site on their host in sort of a "good faith" gesture.

    Now let's say that this friendship that once was turns sour and the guy
    refuses to follow through on his end of the payment arrangements. Can I
    retract all my files from the server that he paid for?

    Also, in the contract I specified that "upon final payment all site files
    become property of the client". Does this include all my .png graphic files
    that allow editability of the image maps that make up a significant portion
    of his site? In other words, the .png files could be compared in a
    photographic sense to being the "negatives", which I know most all
    photographers retain. (My family is a comprised mostly of
    photographers....I'm the black sheep, LOL)

    Any/all thoughts appreciated.

    BR



    Bill Ray Guest

  2. #2

    Default Re: Since we're into the leagalese.....

    Interesting. I have a non-paying client too.... Can I threaten to 'disable'
    his site?
    I've only been paid about a third of the total.
    Eleanor
    "Bill Ray" <billbillraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
    news:bg130d$fh7$1forums.macromedia.com...
    > Say I create a website for a client. They pay for their hosting and I
    build
    > the site on their host in sort of a "good faith" gesture.
    >
    > Now let's say that this friendship that once was turns sour and the guy
    > refuses to follow through on his end of the payment arrangements. Can I
    > retract all my files from the server that he paid for?
    >
    > Also, in the contract I specified that "upon final payment all site files
    > become property of the client". Does this include all my .png graphic
    files
    > that allow editability of the image maps that make up a significant
    portion
    > of his site? In other words, the .png files could be compared in a
    > photographic sense to being the "negatives", which I know most all
    > photographers retain. (My family is a comprised mostly of
    > photographers....I'm the black sheep, LOL)
    >
    > Any/all thoughts appreciated.
    >
    > BR
    >
    >
    >

    E. T. Culling Guest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Since we're into the leagalese.....

    ....I had a similar situation last year with a guy I'd built another 3 sites
    for, to add to his 1 before I came along.
    At some point he slowed down in paying, but as ever I'm still working away
    at whatever he wanted updated. It got to a point I disabled the index pages
    to all four, and waited.
    Within hours that night the guy had called his ISP, he'd called the police,
    and wanted a full report from all concerned as to what had happened.
    I put it down to an error on my part, and had fixed the situation promptly.
    My wholly emotional reaction to his non-payment via this method was the most
    stressful event I've ever gone thru'. But of course I hadn't warned him, I
    just did it. It felt good, but wasn't very productive. Our relationship went
    majorly downhill from then, and he still owes.
    It was one of those experiences when you think, how on earth did I get
    here...?
    It turns out the guy was a bit of a sheister with most of suppliers. He has
    been taken to court, which is no guarantee that you'd get any money back at
    all, it just means he has another black mark against his name.

    No-one knows all the ins and outs, but technically you're damaging someone's
    property whether you think you had right to or not.
    ....just an embarassing incident I though I'd share...

    As far what the client owns is concerned, they're paying for the product you
    provide, not how it got there, (like the negatives idea) If you had a psd
    for example, that could be used to produce variations etc which I'm not sure
    could be described as the client's property. I tend to think initially you
    should say the site files / the product is what you've paid for.

    Depending on your relationship with the client, that could easily change,
    but I don't think it's a bad starting point.

    bit of a ramble...

    robe





    "E. T. Culling" <etcetcnotatcrcwnet.com> wrote in message
    news:bg15af$i8l$1forums.macromedia.com...
    > Interesting. I have a non-paying client too.... Can I threaten to
    'disable'
    > his site?
    > I've only been paid about a third of the total.
    > Eleanor
    > "Bill Ray" <billbillraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
    > news:bg130d$fh7$1forums.macromedia.com...
    > > Say I create a website for a client. They pay for their hosting and I
    > build
    > > the site on their host in sort of a "good faith" gesture.
    > >
    > > Now let's say that this friendship that once was turns sour and the guy
    > > refuses to follow through on his end of the payment arrangements. Can I
    > > retract all my files from the server that he paid for?
    > >
    > > Also, in the contract I specified that "upon final payment all site
    files
    > > become property of the client". Does this include all my .png graphic
    > files
    > > that allow editability of the image maps that make up a significant
    > portion
    > > of his site? In other words, the .png files could be compared in a
    > > photographic sense to being the "negatives", which I know most all
    > > photographers retain. (My family is a comprised mostly of
    > > photographers....I'm the black sheep, LOL)
    > >
    > > Any/all thoughts appreciated.
    > >
    > > BR
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >

    robe Guest

  4. #4

    Default Re: Since we're into the leagalese.....

    Hi Bill,

    I've learned (the hard way) it's best to build a site out on your own space.
    When you get paid, they get their website. But I, too, have a couple of
    sites that are on the client's server yet they have not paid the balance
    due. I *could* take them down, but then that would further slow the payment
    process, since the website is a cash-generating tool...catch 22! I've given
    them each 60 days to make good or I will remove them from the server, since
    the site, in essesence, belongs to me. Always good to have a contract that
    covers all of this (and more). It was worth the investment for me to have
    this drawn up. There are some good free or very reasonable sources for
    these types of contracts on the Net.

    As for ownership of files, for me, I give them everything (PNG files, etc.).
    All rights are transferred with the extent of purchased photographs,
    copyrighted content, or the like.

    --
    Kelley Rao, Webeze
    [url]www.web-eze.com[/url]



    "Bill Ray" <billbillraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
    news:bg130d$fh7$1forums.macromedia.com...
    > Any/all thoughts appreciated.


    Kelley Rao Guest

  5. #5

    Default Re: Since we're into the leagalese.....

    See, I've heard that removing files gets into Federal violation of laws and
    such; personally I don't want that kind of rap to deal with.

    SO any legal eagles here care to elaborate?

    I'm gonna go post on a law NG and perhaps I can bring the answers back to
    this forum, since it's something that we ALL ought to know.

    PS- I still own the domain name and have been registering "peripheral"
    domains (e.g. ima.com, ami.com, srus.com, etc....)

    AND his whole email system is attached to the domain name so if he doesn't
    want to pay, I take my domain name and go home. Otherwise he can buy the
    domain name from me for the balance he owes me. :)

    BR



    "Kelley Rao" <kraolightsoffweb-eze.com> wrote in message
    news:bg186n$lmc$1forums.macromedia.com...
    > Hi Bill,
    >
    > I've learned (the hard way) it's best to build a site out on your own
    space.
    > When you get paid, they get their website. But I, too, have a couple of
    > sites that are on the client's server yet they have not paid the balance
    > due. I *could* take them down, but then that would further slow the
    payment
    > process, since the website is a cash-generating tool...catch 22! I've
    given
    > them each 60 days to make good or I will remove them from the server,
    since
    > the site, in essesence, belongs to me. Always good to have a contract that
    > covers all of this (and more). It was worth the investment for me to have
    > this drawn up. There are some good free or very reasonable sources for
    > these types of contracts on the Net.
    >
    > As for ownership of files, for me, I give them everything (PNG files,
    etc.).
    > All rights are transferred with the extent of purchased photographs,
    > copyrighted content, or the like.
    >
    > --
    > Kelley Rao, Webeze
    > [url]www.web-eze.com[/url]
    >
    >
    >
    > "Bill Ray" <billbillraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
    > news:bg130d$fh7$1forums.macromedia.com...
    >
    > > Any/all thoughts appreciated.
    >
    >
    >

    Bill Ray Guest

  6. #6

    Default Re: Since we're into the leagalese.....

    Well..the obvious answer is (going forward) don't publish the site to a
    client's space until you get paid. It's advice I plan to follow hereafter!

    --
    Kelley Rao, Webeze
    [url]www.web-eze.com[/url]

    "Bill Ray" <billbillraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
    news:bg19rr$nli$1forums.macromedia.com...
    > See, I've heard that removing files gets into Federal violation of laws
    and
    > such; personally I don't want that kind of rap to deal with.
    >
    > SO any legal eagles here care to elaborate?
    >
    > I'm gonna go post on a law NG and perhaps I can bring the answers back to
    > this forum, since it's something that we ALL ought to know.
    >
    > PS- I still own the domain name and have been registering "peripheral"
    > domains (e.g. ima.com, ami.com, srus.com, etc....)
    >
    > AND his whole email system is attached to the domain name so if he doesn't
    > want to pay, I take my domain name and go home. Otherwise he can buy the
    > domain name from me for the balance he owes me. :)

    Kelley Rao Guest

  7. #7

    Default Re: Since we're into the leagalese.....

    Well DUH!!!

    This started out as a "friendship" thing but I quickly learned that when
    "friends" pay you $2000+ to create a website their "Inner a**hole" can
    quickly emerge.

    I mean, a friend wouldn't say (In a condescending tone) "Looks like crap,
    Billy." (There's nicer ways to express one's disdain for a concept....in his
    case, a peroid that is two pixels too close to a letter....(REALLY))

    So........Kelley, yer preachin' to the choir here. :)

    BR


    "Kelley Rao" <kraolightsoffweb-eze.com> wrote in message
    news:bg1aih$ofn$1forums.macromedia.com...
    > Well..the obvious answer is (going forward) don't publish the site to a
    > client's space until you get paid. It's advice I plan to follow
    hereafter!
    >
    > --
    > Kelley Rao, Webeze
    > [url]www.web-eze.com[/url]
    >
    > "Bill Ray" <billbillraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
    > news:bg19rr$nli$1forums.macromedia.com...
    > > See, I've heard that removing files gets into Federal violation of laws
    > and
    > > such; personally I don't want that kind of rap to deal with.
    > >
    > > SO any legal eagles here care to elaborate?
    > >
    > > I'm gonna go post on a law NG and perhaps I can bring the answers back
    to
    > > this forum, since it's something that we ALL ought to know.
    > >
    > > PS- I still own the domain name and have been registering "peripheral"
    > > domains (e.g. ima.com, ami.com, srus.com, etc....)
    > >
    > > AND his whole email system is attached to the domain name so if he
    doesn't
    > > want to pay, I take my domain name and go home. Otherwise he can buy the
    > > domain name from me for the balance he owes me. :)
    >
    >

    Bill Ray Guest

  8. #8

    Default Re: Since we're into the leagalese.....

    I have read the replies to this problem and it strikes me that the "client"
    dictated the rules...wrong...
    If you intend to act like a business do it with some structure.

    You decide on your terms and conditions..ensure that are produced in a way
    that leaves you with the content UNTIL PAID FOR IN FULL. Why upload them
    onto his server. Its like giving your next door neighbour your money to put
    in his bank account!

    In the UK we have Freeserve.. [url]www.freeserve.com[/url] anytime I need to create a
    website for a client I let them access a (my ) freebie website to keep
    updated..but each page is left incomplete..and I dont link the pages
    properly till I have finished and drawn most if not all that is due.

    The main problem is that many "web designers" (including me) do it as a
    part time business or to "suppliment" the main income or whatever... so we
    don't like seeming to be awkward in case the guy goes elsewhere.
    If they want a business web site ..they understand business and business
    rules. You set yours so you get paid and if they dont like it and go away so
    what...what have you lost..nothing and you gained the time you would have
    put to the project.

    I don't know the US law.. but there may be an argument for what we in the UK
    call ROT..Retention of Title.
    All goods are the property of the vendor until invoice is paid in full.
    State this on your quote... tell me you wrote a quote!
    The you could have retrieved your property....and when Jack Webb called show
    him the written quote/ terms and conditions which the guy agreed to by
    giving you the work.

    Ask some of the established pro guys how they avoid gettinh caught out.


    Art




    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
    Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 18/07/2003


    Art White...MM Dummy Guest

  9. #9

    Default Re: Since we're into the leagalese.....

    Oh yeah I have a contract. It's a standard agreement that touches on all the
    work to be done and what's expected of me. As far as I am concerned, I've
    gone WAYYYYYYY above and beyond for this guy.

    It seems that I've simply lost control of the situation and will be taking
    it back.

    BR


    "Art White...MM Dummy" <artNOSPAMwebsites-need-help.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
    message news:bg1iau$46k$1forums.macromedia.com...
    > I have read the replies to this problem and it strikes me that the
    "client"
    > dictated the rules...wrong...
    > If you intend to act like a business do it with some structure.
    >
    > You decide on your terms and conditions..ensure that are produced in a way
    > that leaves you with the content UNTIL PAID FOR IN FULL. Why upload them
    > onto his server. Its like giving your next door neighbour your money to
    put
    > in his bank account!
    >
    > In the UK we have Freeserve.. [url]www.freeserve.com[/url] anytime I need to create
    a
    > website for a client I let them access a (my ) freebie website to keep
    > updated..but each page is left incomplete..and I dont link the pages
    > properly till I have finished and drawn most if not all that is due.
    >
    > The main problem is that many "web designers" (including me) do it as a
    > part time business or to "suppliment" the main income or whatever... so we
    > don't like seeming to be awkward in case the guy goes elsewhere.
    > If they want a business web site ..they understand business and business
    > rules. You set yours so you get paid and if they dont like it and go away
    so
    > what...what have you lost..nothing and you gained the time you would have
    > put to the project.
    >
    > I don't know the US law.. but there may be an argument for what we in the
    UK
    > call ROT..Retention of Title.
    > All goods are the property of the vendor until invoice is paid in full.
    > State this on your quote... tell me you wrote a quote!
    > The you could have retrieved your property....and when Jack Webb called
    show
    > him the written quote/ terms and conditions which the guy agreed to by
    > giving you the work.
    >
    > Ask some of the established pro guys how they avoid gettinh caught out.
    >
    >
    > Art
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ---
    > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([url]http://www.grisoft.com[/url]).
    > Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 18/07/2003
    >
    >

    Bill Ray Guest

  10. #10

    Default Re: Since we're into the leagalese.....

    Steps in dealing with SMOFO's. (Stupid Mother<ahem>kers)

    1) Remove all your work from his server. It is legally all YOURS until he
    pays in full.

    2) When your done his site, he can view it on your server.

    3) When, and ONLY when, he pays you in FULL, you upload to his server,
    burn a copy on a CD for him and yourself, and destroy whatever is on your
    computer to do with his site.

    Bonus 4) Keep all source files and don't provide him with any. If it says
    nothing in contract about it, he can't do $hit.

    My thoughts. :)


    "Bill Ray" <billbillraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote in message
    news:bg130d$fh7$1forums.macromedia.com...
    > Say I create a website for a client. They pay for their hosting and I
    build
    > the site on their host in sort of a "good faith" gesture.
    >
    > Now let's say that this friendship that once was turns sour and the guy
    > refuses to follow through on his end of the payment arrangements. Can I
    > retract all my files from the server that he paid for?
    >
    > Also, in the contract I specified that "upon final payment all site files
    > become property of the client". Does this include all my .png graphic
    files
    > that allow editability of the image maps that make up a significant
    portion
    > of his site? In other words, the .png files could be compared in a
    > photographic sense to being the "negatives", which I know most all
    > photographers retain. (My family is a comprised mostly of
    > photographers....I'm the black sheep, LOL)
    >
    > Any/all thoughts appreciated.
    >
    > BR
    >
    >
    >

    MadWebber Guest

  11. #11

    Default Re: Since we're into the leagalese.....

    In Holland if you retract the website, you (as designer) are comitting a
    crime.

    Bill Ray wrote:
    > Say I create a website for a client. They pay for their hosting and I build
    > the site on their host in sort of a "good faith" gesture.
    >
    > Now let's say that this friendship that once was turns sour and the guy
    > refuses to follow through on his end of the payment arrangements. Can I
    > retract all my files from the server that he paid for?
    >
    > Also, in the contract I specified that "upon final payment all site files
    > become property of the client". Does this include all my .png graphic files
    > that allow editability of the image maps that make up a significant portion
    > of his site? In other words, the .png files could be compared in a
    > photographic sense to being the "negatives", which I know most all
    > photographers retain. (My family is a comprised mostly of
    > photographers....I'm the black sheep, LOL)
    >
    > Any/all thoughts appreciated.
    >
    > BR
    >
    >
    >

    --
    Good luck!

    Coen Naninck
    _______________________________

    Please do not E-mail me with questions about Fireworks issues. Post them
    on the Forum instead. All the time I have left to spend in this Forum
    can't be contributed to also answering questions outside the Forum. It
    just takes too much time and it doesn't help the rest of the world.

    Thank you.

    E-mail & MSN: [email]ccnkhome.nl[/email]
    Corporate: [url]http://www.wetworks.nl[/url]

    Coen Naninck Guest

  12. #12

    Default Re: Since we're into the leagalese.....

    "Coen Naninck" <ccnkhome.nl> wrote in message
    news:3F251C92.20500home.nl...
    | In Holland if you retract the website, you (as designer) are comitting a
    | crime.

    Coen:

    What if you have specified in your contract that the website does not belong
    to the client until final payment is made? Would this be because it is on
    the clients' server? and not on a testing server.

    It's always interesting to read about laws in other countries pertaining to
    this type of issue.


    Nadia
    -----------------------------------------------
    PerreLink Design:
    Design Templates:Nav Bar Layouts:Web Biz Tools:
    [url]http://www.perrelink.com.au/resources/[/url]
    -----------------------------------------------
    :: Ecommerce & Content Management System::
    [url]http://www.yourvirtualstore.net/yvsa4.asp/[/url]
    Enter "nadia" into coupon box if buying
    and receive a 15% discount !
    -----------------------------------------------

    Nadia :TWB: Guest

  13. #13

    Default Re: Since we're into the leagalese.....

    I wouldn't go as far as to state any specific details in law Nadia.
    However, if the client has access to the site on its *owned* domain and
    payment has not been fulfilled then you may have a potential problem on
    your hands. Since deleting content on the server is permitted to only
    modify changes to the actual benefit of the contracter. If you purposely
    destroy files on the server whom the client has the legal right to, then
    that pretty much equals bringing harm to your client, infringing your
    service, breaking the law, and/or worse. I even believe you can go to
    jail for that.

    I did not know about this until my business partner reminded me of some
    cases that had gone very bad for some fellow design companies.

    Nadia :TWB: wrote:
    > "Coen Naninck" <ccnkhome.nl> wrote in message
    > news:3F251C92.20500home.nl...
    > | In Holland if you retract the website, you (as designer) are comitting a
    > | crime.
    >
    > Coen:
    >
    > What if you have specified in your contract that the website does not belong
    > to the client until final payment is made? Would this be because it is on
    > the clients' server? and not on a testing server.
    >
    > It's always interesting to read about laws in other countries pertaining to
    > this type of issue.
    >
    >
    > Nadia
    > -----------------------------------------------
    > PerreLink Design:
    > Design Templates:Nav Bar Layouts:Web Biz Tools:
    > [url]http://www.perrelink.com.au/resources/[/url]
    > -----------------------------------------------
    > :: Ecommerce & Content Management System::
    > [url]http://www.yourvirtualstore.net/yvsa4.asp/[/url]
    > Enter "nadia" into coupon box if buying
    > and receive a 15% discount !
    > -----------------------------------------------
    >

    --
    Good luck!

    Coen Naninck
    _______________________________

    Please do not E-mail me with questions about Fireworks issues. Post them
    on the Forum instead. All the time I have left to spend in this Forum
    can't be contributed to also answering questions outside the Forum. It
    just takes too much time and it doesn't help the rest of the world.

    Thank you.

    E-mail & MSN: [email]ccnkhome.nl[/email]
    Corporate: [url]http://www.wetworks.nl[/url]

    Coen Naninck Guest

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